Open Source CRT Project

[yoZe]

Hello everyone,

I'm surprised that nobody has yet dedicated a topic to this event on the forum because a small revolution in the world of crt is coming!
Someone is about to release a universal chassis for consumer tv and arcade monitor.
From what I understand, the final goal of this chassis is to be able to adapt to all tube diagonals, it will be tri-frequency, it will not use flyback and the pcb will use much more recent, reliable and still in production electronic components.
One of the objectives of the designer is also to be able to adjust the geometry and convergence via an app (PC or smartphone), which should allow infinitely more settings. He also mentions the possibility of saving the size and positioning of the image depending on the device used.

He gave some interviews on youtube :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb6y3jM1k_A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l6mUYQhgSU&t=543s

You can see a demonstration here on a 9 inches tube:
https://vimeo.com/591387422

You can follow Thomas (the creator) on twitter and guithub:
https://twitter.com/enginetankard
https://github.com/tdaede/td-crt

[fernan1234]

Thanks for making a good topic about it!

This is definitely the most exciting project I could have imagined. The possibilities are really huge. It's definitely going to take a good chunk of time before this becomes moderately accessible to people, but the CRT future is bright.

[Josh128]

It doesnt use a flyback? Thats extremely interesting. How does it generate the HV required for the cathode rays?

[NoAffinity]

This will be awesome. Now, if we could just get some fresh tubes to go with it...

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Dochartaigh]

I have to admit I'm really not super knowledgeable about the internal workings of a CRT (I can just barely recap and like adjusting a yoke and/or some magnets/strips is the extent of my abilities... def NOT a pro, not even a novice in knowing how these work!), so please bare with me if I completely butcher terms and what things do lol...

In the video he says he bypasses EVERYTHING but the: neckboard w/ CRT socket, RGB amp in the neckboard, high voltage supply (but says he has one he's working on), and his device will take care of ALL the rest...? So in essence that means if you have a bare CRT tube which works, with a working neckboard, you can have a completely working CRT with his device?

We all know the tube itself is the real unobtanium part, which will never, ever, be produced again, but in my experience of owning/selling/giving-away a crapton of CRT's generally speaking the tubes all still work (yes, some can be very worn, also have burn-in, some usually-minor grille damage even, but it's very uncommon for me to even have something like an internal color gun not working in the 150+ CRT's I've owned)... so working tubes we still have around which is great...

BUT, the problems I most commonly encounter are caused by the rest of the well-aged electronics... especially if you're like me and don't have the knowledge to troubleshoot and find the broken part/area. If we have something to replace ALL of that with modern easy-to find parts, this seems like an absolutely amazing thing.




I also wanted to ask about the yoke. Is he considering that part of the neckboard? I thought yoke's were nearly hand-wound in specialty CRT factories (which no longer exist, and probably way fewer people who knew how to do this are around as well). Where would we get one of those (I thought those are VERY specific to the exact tube/chassis and all that) if the tube doesn't come with one?

By saying high voltage he's specifically talking about the flyback, correct? Those are also a near-unobtanium part anymore, since you need the EXACT one (for the most part I believe) for the tube/chassis, and you can't just easily make another one out of spare parts. I hope that's what he meant since for most of us you simply can't find a replacement flyback and if that goes the entire TV/Monitor is completely dead and unusable except for spare parts...

He also says "future versions MAY be able to adjust geometry"... that would be a must-have before this project goes anywhere IMO, along with convergence too (and hopefully the better PVM/BVM type with multiple areas being able to be adjusted separately).



Anyway, I'm picturing this in my head, or I should say "ideally", that if you for instance have a CRT which normally has (or had) a good picture but something big like the yoke is all shorted out, and/or the flyback is ruined, and/or one of those little (less likely I know) IC's breaks... i.e. things you really can't find anymore (even with years of searching on eBay... which I have a dozen+ alerts setup for flybacks alone lol), then you can just jump into this open source CRT project and get your CRT back up and working since you bypass all of those things it sounds like. That would be amazing.

I would also like to be able to get some of the more advanced features of PVM/BVM's onto other tubes like multi area convergence, better voltage regulation to handle bloom better, even expand upon different geometry banks for different consoles (like a better more diesel version of the BVM's 'channels' which only adjust H center), etc.

...and that's not even getting into multiformat type stuff (which certain tubes probably won't have a chance in hell resolving, but might still be cool... I know many arcade monitors can dual/tri sync and a ton of them aren't the sharpest to begin with...).

[yoZe]

The chassis he currently uses does have a flyback, but as he explains in an interview, he is hopeful that future versions will be able to replace it with components that are used in electric car batteries or that are found in train design at the rail level.

As for the possibility that cathode ray tubes will be remade one day, I don't think we should count on it.
These are large scale industrial manufacturing processes. It requires a lot of means and knowledge. No one will start this for a niche market because let's not forget, we are the exceptions.

[fernan1234]

BUT, the problems I most commonly encounter are caused by the rest of the well-aged electronics... especially if you're like me and don't have the knowledge to troubleshoot and find the broken part/area. If we have something to replace ALL of that with modern easy-to find parts, this seems like an absolutely amazing thing.

Yep, that's one of the beauties of this project, all you really need is to salvage a good tube + yoke assembly and you can make a lot from it, eventually even turn it into a PVM-level quality display, even "multiformat" (well, at least add 31khz/480p support to 15khz ones, and 15khz support to 31khz+ ones).

I also wanted to ask about the yoke. Is he considering that part of the neckboard? I thought yoke's were nearly hand-wound in specialty CRT factories (which no longer exist, and probably way fewer people who knew how to do this are around as well). Where would we get one of those (I thought those are VERY specific to the exact tube/chassis and all that) if the tube doesn't come with one?

I think he's considering the yoke as part of the tube so that has to be supplied. Technically the neckboard is not necessary, but for convenience you'll want them simply because they have the connector for the tube's neck. Maybe eventually people will figure out 3D-printable replacements for specific tube models. But having the original neckboard will make things much easier in all cases, and usually the neckboards are one of the easiest parts to service anyway.

By saying high voltage he's specifically talking about the flyback, correct? Those are also a near-unobtanium part anymore, since you need the EXACT one (for the most part I believe) for the tube/chassis, and you can't just easily make another one out of spare parts. I hope that's what he meant since for most of us you simply can't find a replacement flyback and if that goes the entire TV/Monitor is completely dead and unusable except for spare parts...

What goes for the neckboard also goes for the flyback, your life will be much easier if you can salvage the tube/yoke, neckboard, and flyback, replacing everything else.

...and that's not even getting into multiformat type stuff (which certain tubes probably won't have a chance in hell resolving, but might still be cool... I know many arcade monitors can dual/tri sync and a ton of them aren't the sharpest to begin with...).

Going back to this, it should be relatively "trivial" to add 15khz support to PC CRTs, and sounds like in most cases it will be doable to add 31khz support (but probably not more) to 15khz TVs and monitors.

Geometry adjustment should also be available eventually from what I gathered, and ultimately you should have a similar level of calibration control (if not better) as what you find in pro monitors.

Hard to say how much this will all take to pan out, but especially given that it's an open source project it really is a matter of time.

[Josh128]

^^
This. Im not buying that it works without a flyback. It would have to use some sort of SMPS that can produce HV without a transformer. Something has to generate the 30+KV that 25"+ tubes require to produce a beam. If it doesnt replace the HV circuitry, well, the flyback basically IS the HV circuitry. Requiring the neckboard kind of sucks too.

That said, I love the concept and wish the engineer working on this the very best.

Going back to this, it should be relatively "trivial" to add 15khz support to PC CRTs, and sounds like in most cases it will be doable to add 31khz support (but probably not more) to 15khz TVs and monitors.

That would be pretty amazing. As would making HD CRTs multiscan, zero lag monitors!

[Guspaz]

Unfortunately this project doesn't replace the single most important component, the tube, which is becoming increasingly harder to find. Even small crappy consumer televisions now sell for hundreds of dollars online (not to mention how poorly they survive shipping) and they will only continue to get more and more expensive. Because CRTs are already expensive to acquire, and will continue to get more and more so until they are the exclusive playground of the rich, I think a more useful direction to pursue is CRT simulation. For example, custom LCD/OLED/etc. display controllers and drivers that operate with very low latency, apply CRT masks, perhaps even do interesting things to simulate CRT rasters with rolling refresh. Imagine a display with multiple simultaneous rolling refreshes going across the screen, drawing the image at various intensities, simulating the phosphor decay of a CRT...

[Dochartaigh]

Yep, that's one of the beauties of this project, all you really need is to salvage a good tube + yoke assembly and you can make a lot from it, eventually even turn it into a PVM-level quality display, even "multiformat" (well, at least add 31khz/480p support to 15khz ones, and 15khz support to 31khz+ ones).

Doesn't the size of the holes in the grille/mask help determine how sharp everything is? I know other things are involved in that too (as seen in some select examples of the SAME EXACT like ~350TVL consumer tube being used in a PVM and it magically then being ~560TVL... which could also be marketing BS of course...), but I still don't see a like 250TVL consumer TV stand up to a 600/800/900 TVL PVM or BVM.

I do agree that if he can get a lot of the adjustments (and regulation) into his open source crt project, which are normally only found on PVM/BVM's, onto a regular CRT that WOULD do a LOT to make those consumer ones a ton better, which would be awesome.

I think he's considering the yoke as part of the tube so that has to be supplied. Technically the neckboard is not necessary, but for convenience you'll want them simply because they have the connector for the tube's neck. Maybe eventually people will figure out 3D-printable replacements for specific tube models. But having the original neckboard will make things much easier in all cases, and usually the neckboards are one of the easiest parts to service anyway.

I think he means this as well, unfortunately. This leads a lot open as well. Some tubes are bonded yokes, like some have no rings to adjust convergence. Some neckboards have H or V (forget which) focus (like separate from the one on the flyback... I think at least), some neckboards do all sorts of other stuff which many others can't do (this is getting out of my expertise but pretty sure on this)... like my BVM has 8? different dials sitting right above the coil for convergence (whereas my PVM-3230 has 9? ones on pots on a totally separate board... or actually maybe I'm thinking of separate focus pots actually... been a while since I opened that one up, but still... things that I hope he addresses and has adjustments built into the final project once he's done with it since those are important things to really tune in on a CRT).

[Josh128]

Because CRTs are already expensive to acquire, and will continue to get more and more so until they are the exclusive playground of the rich, I think a more useful direction to pursue is CRT simulation. For example, custom LCD/OLED/etc. display controllers and drivers that operate with very low latency, apply CRT masks, perhaps even do interesting things to simulate CRT rasters with rolling refresh. Imagine a display with multiple simultaneous rolling refreshes going across the screen, drawing the image at various intensities, simulating the phosphor decay of a CRT...

Being honest, RT 5X Pro + a 1440p or above PC monitor is already 95% there. The masks he added are outstanding and the input lag is basically zero. It even surpasses CRT in some ways. The most difficult obstacles are things like motion and contrast, which may never be emulated perfectly, but tech like BFI w/120Hz is getting it ever closer.

[Dochartaigh]

Unfortunately this project doesn't replace the single most important component, the tube, which is becoming increasingly harder to find. Even small crappy consumer televisions now sell for hundreds of dollars online (not to mention how poorly they survive shipping) and they will only continue to get more and more expensive. Because CRTs are already expensive to acquire, and will continue to get more and more so until they are the exclusive playground of the rich

On the flip side though, how many CRT's go to the dump and get crushed/buried because a component inside (BESIDES the tube) can't be replaced so it's as good as trash (and does get trashed)? If this project can more easily fix a broken CRT, then it can possibly really help the supply of them in circulation, working, and being enjoyed by enthusiasts like us...

...like I've literally trashed probably 10+ sets because I couldn't fix them, I couldn't even give them away after months of posting about them (thus why I trashed them), but if there was a DIY open source CRT board you could put together (or buy) and just plug into the neckboard, I would bet every one of those CRT's would have found a home.

Also should mention that there's still, literally, like 100+ CRT's around me for dirt cheap (i know this is VERY area dependent, but just saying). Yes, some sellers like to price like eBay does, but around me there's still no shortage of normal sets for free (especially if you will move their 'trash' out of their home for them

[emphatic]

If these chassii (what's the plural form of chassis?) are computer controlled, shouldn't it be possible to input compensation for burn-in for each specific tube they're used for? For example, I have the Battle Garegga logo burnt into one of my NANAO MS9 tubes. As burn-in is static, in theory, shouldn't it be possible to change, say, the brightness output onto the affected areas of the tube so the result would be a less noticeable burn-in?

[fernan1234]

perhaps even do interesting things to simulate CRT rasters with rolling refresh. Imagine a display with multiple simultaneous rolling refreshes going across the screen, drawing the image at various intensities, simulating the phosphor decay of a CRT...

This is the ultimate dream, but I'd say in terms of time we're much closer to this open source CRT project being something you can easily order from online sellers pretty much ready to plug into your tube of choice with an ease similar to building a custom PC, than we are to display technology able to do this. In terms of resolution 8k may cut it, which is already available, but last I heard an adequate refresh rate to do this would be in the ballpark of 1000hz... You'd also need a LOT of nits. All in all we're talking of a revolution in display tech well past various types of OLED and LCD panels as we know them today.

I do agree with Josh that a RT5X with its new mask filters paired with adequate strobing/BFI gets you very decent results, and I could live with that if all CRTs in the world died today. A display with a rolling scan and brightness loss compensation gets you even closer. But that last 5-10% of the way will take exponentially more developments for the simulation route. In the meantime, making the most out of the large stock of available CRTs with a project like this sounds like a gift from the heavens.

[Josh128]

A display with a rolling scan and brightness loss compensation gets you even closer. But that last 5-10% of the way will take exponentially more developments for the simulation route.

I've been testing the 5X lately with my new (to me) plasma set, and I must say the combination of motion clarity and contrast make it really close to CRT when using the 5X. OLEDs do have better contrast and pure blacks, but from all accounts Ive read, motion is still not on the level of plasma. The 600Hz pulsed images of plasma are superior for motion as opposed to the sample and hold images of OLED. I dont have an OLED, but I do have a 1440p LG LCD, and while the 5X looks great on it in stills, it falls apart in motion as the blur is just jarring to me. IMO in the pursuit of getting that CRT look, the industry took a step back when it abandoned plasma technology.

[Guspaz]

On the flip side though, how many CRT's go to the dump and get crushed/buried because a component inside (BESIDES the tube) can't be replaced so it's as good as trash (and does get trashed)? If this project can more easily fix a broken CRT, then it can possibly really help the supply of them in circulation, working, and being enjoyed by enthusiasts like us...

I think there are way less CRTs in circulation these days (the vast majority have already been trashed), and the number remaining is shrinking rapidly. We've already seen what happened to PVMs. I got six of them for free. A TV station was happy to clear out the storage space. I gave away four, kept two. Today? My 14L2 sells for a thousand dollars Canadian. Maybe consumer CRTs are still easily available locally, but I think that's going to change, and faster than people would like. I don't mean to say there isn't any value in this project, I just think that it's got a future that is necessarily limited in scope.

If these chassii (what's the plural form of chassis?) are computer controlled, shouldn't it be possible to input compensation for burn-in for each specific tube they're used for? For example, I have the Battle Garegga logo burnt into one of my NANAO MS9 tubes. As burn-in is static, in theory, shouldn't it be possible to change, say, the brightness output onto the affected areas of the tube so the result would be a less noticeable burn-in?

It'd be very hard on a CRT since you can't precisely align the digital brightness compensation to the actual physical burn-in, but you could probably reduce the visibility of it. But you'd be doing it by reducing overall brightness. You should be able to do this quite effectively with an OLED, though, since you could align the compensation pattern perfectly. I wish I could do that for my parents' LG B7. They bought it in 2018 and already burned CNN into it quite badly.

This is the ultimate dream, but I'd say in terms of time we're much closer to this open source CRT project being something you can easily order from online sellers pretty much ready to plug into your tube of choice with an ease similar to building a custom PC, than we are to display technology able to do this. In terms of resolution 8k may cut it, which is already available, but last I heard an adequate refresh rate to do this would be in the ballpark of 1000hz... You'd also need a LOT of nits. All in all we're talking of a revolution in display tech well past various types of OLED and LCD panels as we know them today.

I would argue that the RT5X has already demonstrated the practicality of this today. Combine it with BFI on an OLED (or with a plasma as Josh did) and boy are you getting a lot of the benefits of a CRT. What I'm suggesting wouldn't need 1000 Hz displays, that would be what you'd need if you were trying to do this all as a fully external device with only the normal display refresh to work with. I'm talking about custom display controllers. There are already 360 Hz displays on the market, six rolling refreshes across the screen (so, 180 pixel tall bands) with progressively lower brightness would probably look a lot like a CRT raster to the eye if tuned appropriately, and would never involve updating any pixel at anything beyond 360 Hz. Some of the limitations also go away when you're doing this on the controller or display driver level. The existing rolling refresh low persistence displays on the market already have in effect two rolling refreshes going on at a time (the bottom of the black bar and the bottom of the next frame), moving one row of pixels at a time, meaning that the display is being updated 2160 times per second (well, 1080 times per second since they probably draw two separate rows of new pixels simultaneously), but we would not call those 2160 Hz displays, right?

Briefly back on the subject of OLEDs, the C1 suffers *much* less brightness drop in SDR BFI than the CX does, though I've not played around with it more than a trivial amount. But SDR GBFI for 60 Hz input describes the RT5X perfectly... I'll definitely give it a try when I get an RT5X.

[jd213]

I imagine this is at least a few years away, (and will probably be pretty expensive and/or time consuming to implement), but after seeing YouTube vids of CRTs restored after being left outside in a dump or whatever, it gives me hope that plenty of people will still be able to game on CRTs for at least another 30 years or so.

Since VGA monitors are still pretty easy to get cheap, native support for 15khz on them alone will hopefully allow more people to enjoy PVM-quality gaming without the need for line doubling or 120hz (which are fine, but my OCD doesn't let me enjoy them quite as much as native 15khz). And 31/24khz on 15khz CRTs will be pretty nice to have, too.

[matt]

Unfortunately this project doesn't replace the single most important component, the tube, which is becoming increasingly harder to find. Even small crappy consumer televisions now sell for hundreds of dollars online (not to mention how poorly they survive shipping) and they will only continue to get more and more expensive.

We're still pretty far away from the point where tubes will be a limiting factor. Consumer tubes, and smaller size professional grade tubes, are still available NOS from some parts suppliers. CRT TVs and low end PC monitors, while nowhere near as plentiful as they were 5-10 years ago, are still very common and are being dumped for free or very cheap. The ones you see for inflated prices online are the exception rather than the rule. Hopefully that will still be the case if/when this project reaches fruition.

In my experience, more CRTs are getting dumped due to board-level component failures vs bad tubes - the tube itself is very durable as long as it hasn't gotten too many hours of use. The ultimate goal of this project is to create a design that will drive these tubes without having to rely on obsolete and/or unavailable components, which is the real key to keeping them running for the long term. IMO that's pretty awesome.

I imagine this is at least a few years away, (and will probably be pretty expensive and/or time consuming to implement), but after seeing YouTube vids of CRTs restored after being left outside in a dump or whatever, it gives me hope that plenty of people will still be able to game on CRTs for at least another 30 years or so.

Since VGA monitors are still pretty easy to get cheap, native support for 15khz on them alone will hopefully allow more people to enjoy PVM-quality gaming without the need for line doubling or 120hz (which are fine, but my OCD doesn't let me enjoy them quite as much as native 15khz). And 31/24khz on 15khz CRTs will be pretty nice to have, too.

In one of the interviews, he mentioned that the BOM as it stands now is about $1000. Hopefully that can be optimized somewhat! Ideally, it would be great if it could be modularized so that individual sections of the chassis could be replaced as needed.

[bobrocks95]

Fudoh will have to remind me how good the motion resolution is on the Sony rolling scan BVM OLEDs. If LG implemented rolling scan on their OLEDs I think we're pretty much at CRT quality levels. Or someone could make a custom driver that implements it, like that PC monitor project is doing.

Are people really looking to simulate individual phosphor decay? That's desirable? I get scanlines, contrast, motion resolution... But beyond that the rest are quirks from the tech, nostalgia at best... Might as well start adding filters with bad convergence and some wonky geometry at that point lol.

As for the project itself, very cool but its price would have to be drastically reduced for it to hit the point some people are talking about of saving consumer tubes bound for the trash. Are you going to spend hundreds of dollars to fix a potentially good tube, or go out and just find another consumer set? That's assuming this will be out before CRTs are nearly unavailable, as I side with Guspaz on that, they are already very rare around me. People were dumping them 5-10 years ago and now they're pretty much gone.

[Josh128]

Im not sure the "rolling scan" as its implemented in Sony BVM OLEDs give any better motion results than LGs implementation of 120Hz BFI for 60Hz content. If I had to bet, I'd say its probably almost identical to the naked eye in practice. Its still a type of "rolling scan" when you look at it in super slow mo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEAzEpAiWow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LyTy27BGKc

https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?t=6071

[yoZe]

It would be a good thing to keep this conversation topic related to its original subject please.
There is no shortage of topics on sharders and flat screens.
Thanks

[VEGETA]

I didn't follow good on this but I wonder about:

1- will this make use of any CRT TV? like connecting it to CRT internals.
2- will it support making CRTs multiformat or at least support up to 480p even if they are originally just 480i?
3- can it let the crt support RGB and csync?
4- most importantly, can it achieve PVM level of quality?

[bobrocks95]

Im not sure the "rolling scan" as its implemented in Sony BVM OLEDs give any better motion results than LGs implementation of 120Hz BFI for 60Hz content. If I had to bet, I'd say its probably almost identical to the naked eye in practice. Its still a type of "rolling scan" when you look at it in super slow mo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEAzEpAiWow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LyTy27BGKc

https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?t=6071

Confused on the first video since they look completely different, but the second makes sense.

When you say 120Hz BFI what do you mean exactly though? I have a B9, so I don't have a BFI option for a 120Hz source like a PC, which apparently the newer models do. On 60Hz content I get one OLED Motion toggle in game mode and that's it, which I assume is what rtings would call 60Hz BFI- 1 frame with the picture, 1 frame with a black screen. That's driving the panel at 120Hz though, so is that the same thing here, what you're calling 120Hz BFI? Or is it a newer double-strobe feature or something on later models?

If it's what I've got, unfortunately it's a flickery mess to my eyes and would be painful for prolonged use. Maybe I can get a better idea of what newer sets look like by disabling game mode and trying some other options?

It would be a good thing to keep this conversation topic related to its original subject please.
There is no shortage of topics on sharders and flat screens.
Thanks

This project directly relates to keeping CRT tech alive, so I think some light discussion of "what do current screens still need in order to tick all the boxes a CRT does" is perfectly relevant. If this project comes to fruition it could extend CRT lifespans, but not indefinitely, they will remain a dead technology. Understanding how close we are to their performance is important, and it's not like anybody is in here sharing HLSL presets or anything.

[fernan1234]

Im not sure the "rolling scan" as its implemented in Sony BVM OLEDs give any better motion results than LGs implementation of 120Hz BFI for 60Hz content. If I had to bet, I'd say its probably almost identical to the naked eye in practice. Its still a type of "rolling scan" when you look at it in super slow mo.

The rolling scan is better. For starters, until we get to the point of insanely high refresh rates where you can really use fine grained strobing, the ideal is for the strobing (whatever method used, BFI or rolling scan) to match the frame rate of the content. Most retro game content is 60fps, so 60hz strobing is ideal. Further, the Sony pro monitors compensate for the brightness loss due to the strobing, no TV does this and the OLED TVs are capped in SDR brightness as is, so strobing/BFI halves it further, and it's even worse when you introduce further brightness loss from scanlines. The WRGB OLED panels furthermore rely on the white subpixels for brightness, so any attempt to compensate washes out the picture. As you can see you have a lot of hurdles with the WOLED panels as they are, even the new slightly more efficient ones.

Fudoh will have to remind me how good the motion resolution is on the Sony rolling scan BVM OLEDs. If LG implemented rolling scan on their OLEDs I think we're pretty much at CRT quality levels. Or someone could make a custom driver that implements it, like that PC monitor project is doing.

I have one, and the rolling scan does get you close, but having a CRT next to it it's obvious that it's not "pretty much" at that level. Most people coming from any other flat panel would be thrilled though, but still nothing matches CRTs refreshing at 60hz with 60fps (or even old ~29fps video or lower fps game) content.

This is why CRTs are still worth fighting for (plus those OLED BVMs are expensive as heck, and they won't last as long as CRTs have). This is why a project like this is so amazing.


And VEGETA, your questions have been answered in the video posted and the replies here.

[fernan1234]

30 FPS in motion on a CRT produces artifacts as bad or worse than sample and hold to my eyes.

What you're used to will make a difference, since it's a rather different kind of artifact. Instead of getting blur, you get double image artifacts but they look rather clear. Since I'm mainly used to CRT motion, that to me looks less offensive than persistence blur on sample-and-hold displays with no or inadequate strobing.

~30FPS really doesn't have an ideal solution for motion, you kinda pick your poison between:
1) CRT (or perfect CRT simulation) for clear double images @ 60Hz.
2) Blurry motion on a flat panel, with strobing getting you closer to #1 above the more effective the strobing is.
3) Soap-opera-effect with any kind of frame interpolation, the more effective/smoother the more SOE.
4) Headache inducing flicker from refresh rate/frame rate match at ~30. (No one chooses this AFAIK)

[NJRoadfan]

Going back to this, it should be relatively "trivial" to add 15khz support to PC CRTs, and sounds like in most cases it will be doable to add 31khz support (but probably not more) to 15khz TVs and monitors.

Look at the Toshiba TIMM's chassis design. Its essentially a consumer TV chassis with an added RGB input, a sync separator, and an additional 15-40khz HV drive/osc chip (Sanyo SA7860) tacked on. The jungle's HV drive/osc isn't used at all. On the opposite end, PC CRTs may use similar chips, but lock out lower horizontal sync modes, aka "too smart for their own good".

[KPackratt2k]

Unfortunately this project doesn't replace the single most important component, the tube, which is becoming increasingly harder to find. Even small crappy consumer televisions now sell for hundreds of dollars online (not to mention how poorly they survive shipping) and they will only continue to get more and more expensive.

I've noticed this too. At the Seattle RE-PC (a computer recycling center), I found a 13" Sony Trinitron CRT TV for $120 and the worst part is it was a crappy RF-only model, I think there were other CRT TVs there that were sold at ungodly expensive prices. I'm lucky that I've been able to find two Sony CRT TVs (a 20" one and a 27" one) for free on my local CL last year, as I've seen some CRTs sell for stupidly expensive prices there too. Even worse, there are weirdos who destroy perfectly good working CRTs just to gain views on YouTube (shango066 I'm looking at you). It's bad enough that they're becoming a target for scalpers even though there are still plenty of them out there, destroying perfectly good sets will only make them harder to find and unfortunately it seems like we're getting close to that point.