Why do you suppose people can still make great shmups?

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Controversial title there, hey?

I'm talking about Cave here, since they made some amazing shmups in the 2000s, but people just didn't take the hint back then.

Even now I'm still seeing developers make great shmups even though the unbeatable standards have been set, with games like the Crimzon Clover remasters, Zeroranger or Vastynex. They're not just good, but great. I'm sure I'll rub some the wrong way here, but people still haven't given up. Especially notable with today's standards being this low.

Back in the old days, it seems like way more people weren't aware of the shmup niche. It really makes you appreciate the art of making a really special shmup. Anyone can make one, a lot of people can make a decent one, but to make a really kick ass one...well, that's hard.

Sometimes, I can tell what hold some of those games back from being better. Clover for instance needed a better interface and more balancing on bombs. This is why I'm glad the developers noticed and took action.
But so many other people are making good shmups nowadays. R-Type Final 2 is coming to mind.

I guess the easy answer is that lots of these young developers had a real passion for shmups, so they had a better idea on what to do to make them awesome.

It's nice.

Do you guys think that what I said is the case, or is it something else like companies starting to realize that the genre actually has a dedicated audience, and all that jazz?

[Despatche]

Asking the real questions.

The answer is we're seeing all the people raised on the '90s and '00s stuff starting to make games. I fear it won't last, but with all these rereleases, we shall see what happens in a few decades.

[Ixmucane2]

"Production values" have decayed from major teams of major developers when shmups were a mainstream arcade genre to individuals and small doujin circles; but experience continues to accumulate, hardware and software power improve relentlessly, and competent and motivated amateurs can do better than the professionals of past generations. The proliferation of n00bs is not an obstacle to the proliferation of indie luminaries.

[Lethe]

"Production values" have decayed from major teams of major developers when shmups were a mainstream arcade genre to individuals and small doujin circles; but experience continues to accumulate, hardware and software power improve relentlessly, and competent and motivated amateurs can do better than the professionals of past generations. The proliferation of n00bs is not an obstacle to the proliferation of indie luminaries.

Expertly put. In some ways games in this genre are a true anathema to the modern triple-A. Juggernaut budgets and sheer manpower contribute little, while vision and expertise (and work) is almost enough alone.

Slight detour: I love "doujin energy", which is an idea I can't adequately describe, but it's where the developer has a total commitment to entertainment but is very conscious of how far they can push the dumb shit without screwing up the mechanics. Zakichi's games have it in spades, GOTYO's too; M-KAI's Pleasure Hearts and Judgement Silversword have it, but Qute games proper are more lacking. In fact this combination of silliness and expertise is something that seems only to be found among the smallest indies. As long as I see people making games full of the doujin juice, I know someone knows what they're doing, so the situation can't possibly be that bad.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

In fact this combination of silliness and expertise is something that seems only to be found among the smallest indies.

I feel like Tumiki Fighters perfectly captures this feeling.

The silliness you find in indie releases is also very different from a big publisher like Konami's Parodius series, though I'm not sure I can put into words how exactly.

[FRO]

In fact this combination of silliness and expertise is something that seems only to be found among the smallest indies.

I feel like Tumiki Fighters perfectly captures this feeling.

The silliness you find in indie releases is also very different from a big publisher like Konami's Parodius series, though I'm not sure I can put into words how exactly.

I think I might have an inkling of what you mean. Parodius, at its core, is still a serious shooter with excellent core mechanics and game play, but with a zany coat of paint over the top. Yes, it's Konami poking fun at themselves and everything else, but the game doesn't suffer as a result. It's still as nails hard as any of the Gradius games, just with characters, art, and subject matter that makes it look like they're not taking it very seriously. It's silliness, but very measured. Indie releases can afford to take more risks, sometimes because they're free, and sometimes because there are just no expectations to meet, because there's not an audience that already knows what they want from a particular game/series/dev/pub. So you can get stuff like Transcendpang or TC Strikers, since there's more freedom to branch out and just go hog wild. Tumiki Fighters (and by extension, Blast Works) is a fun game that doesn't take itself very seriously, and the playfulness of it is at the core of the experience. Is it possible to play for score in that game? I suppose so, but I honestly have no idea. I never bothered to look that far into it. The joy of the experience itself was the real draw.

[third_strike]

Always Cave!
Yes they are good, but they only bring a part of the many layers that shmups can have. Even staying longer in the market, I think they didn't satisfactorily present something so innovative in game mechanics/way of control a ship (like Psyvariar/Fumikoin Shiki) or in presentation (like the Taito F3 games), just repetitions/alterations of their ideas.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Cave was only mentioned because the original post is a parody of this one

(Though, the thread is serious. And of course, Cave setting standards that still apply today is also a serious fact, but not as important as some folks make it out to be.)

Out of all the posts here, the big doujin energy one really sticks out. You can really tell when a developer puts their heart and soul into a game - not necessarily a monument of effort as much as knowledge and dedication to the audience. Something which is probably lost in big company titles purely because of the larger teams and smaller flexibility. Or so I'd assume anyway.

[Sima Tuna]

The shmup genre is one of those few video game genres (alongside run and guns and beat em ups) where I feel like both the fans and the developers are passionate about actually playing the games. If you look at more mainstream titles, you always hear about the "experience." You have your Last of Us 2, Death Stranding, Horizon Zero Dawn, Uncharted 4, whatever kind of games. And it's fine with me if people like those games. They're not for me. But with Assassin's Creed or other annual franchises, along with the "cinematic" games, I get the impression most of the staff making the game were concerned with aspects other than the gameplay, and maybe some of the people making the games don't really play other video games for the gameplay. Some may not even play games at all.

But when you talk about Crimzon Clover, Blue Revolver, Zero Ranger or even a larger studio game like Cave's SDOJ, was there any chance at all that the people making the games didn't play games? The people who make shmups (not counting mobile shovelware devs, which exist for every genre) are passionate about playing shmups. There are so many good shmups even now because the industry hasn't become diluted to the extent of other genres imo. Add to this the relatively low barrier to entry to coding and developing a shmup compared to other genres. So the indie scene has been able to step in and fill the gap left by Cave and other companies exiting the market.

[Camarguess]

I feel there are lots of new, fun, and innovative shmups today. And with the technology and graphics available, frankly, there’s no reason why people can’t still make great shmups. My favorites are from the 80’s and 90’s, sure, but I’d be lying out of my teeth if I didn’t really enjoy some of the more modern and recent titles. There are a lot of really good modern shmups, the hard part is finding out about them. If the developers names aren’t as known as cave for example, then a lot of those games don’t really get found. A lot of modern games, I’ve played and enjoyed, I came across by pure accident or gifted from a friend. One of the most, if not The most interesting and innovative shmup I’ve played this year (besides Rtype Final 2), goes by the name of Revolver360 RE:Actor. It’s on steam, was developed by Cross Eaglet and published in 2014 by Playism. It’s currently on sale for 2 dollars, and I highly recommend checking it out if you haven’t. I’d never heard of it before. One of my friends just gifted it to me, telling me to simply play it. I did, I thought it was the most badass thing I’ve played all year. I won’t explain how the game works, because you just need to play it. But the mechanics they used in that game makes so much sense in a modern game. What doesn’t make sense is why there is no other game like it today. Shmups in 3D, I mean playing in a 3D dimensional playing field would be awesome. Sorry for the rambling, but yes, good shmups can still be made today, and in my opinion, with the tools developers currently have at their disposal, there really isn’t a reason why they can’t.

[XoPachi]

I remember seeing specific people around here say the genre is dead and none of the games coming out are good compared to...I don't know.

Modern gaming sucks but, STG's are as delightful to me now as they were for me in 2005. Of course I had disappointments like Raiden V, Dezatopia, and recently R-Type Final 2. But those aren't even like atrocious games. And there's some stylistic trends I'm intensely exhausted by that I wish would just go away. Generally though, a lot of new games are some of the most balanced, tightly made entries in the genre. I look at Devil Engine, Natsuki Chronicles, Danmaku Unlimited 3, Blue Revolver, and I will count Monolith too.

This isn't even getting into the legacy support as it's the best it's -ever- been. I can think of very very few porting jobs that left a lot to be desired and they're all in that Capcom Stadium.