Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need to)

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maximo310
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need

Post by maximo310 »

UD2 wrote:
Redfox wrote:I played both of these games today for the first time. I don't get the love for Outzone against Fixeight.

Fixeight looks better (better colors, more animation, faster, smoother than outzone).

Fixeight doesn't have that goddam checkpoint system (instant respawn on death will always be preferable to me).

Fixeight has 8 different characters each with multiple weapon types, lots of variety.

Given everything I would pick Fixeight every time, I just don't get the love for Outzone unless you're a massochist who likes crappier everything :P

Full disclosure: I historically have always preferred Shock Troopers 2nd Squad over the original if that means anything :D
There's a few major issues that really keep me from enjoying FixEight.

The music is terrible, probably the worst in Toaplan's entire library. Out Zone, on the other hand, is among their best.

Stage design is okay, but nothing close to Out Zone's brilliant layouts. FixEight feels slow and plodding, while Out Zone is for the most part a fast-paced, shoot-like-crazy experience that almost plays like a traditional shmup since you really don't stop moving very often.

FixEight's design doesn't really seem to be geared for instant respawns. In Out Zone, each checkpoint is a fun little puzzle (except the recovery on the stage 6 boss, that can go right to hell). FixEight feels a lot sloppier. Instant respawns can work as shown by countless games, but FixEight doesn't do them well.

Sure, the hardware used for FixEight is a lot newer, but I still think Out Zone is a better looking game (artistically).

Anyway, I'd highly encourage giving Out Zone another go.
I originally played FixEight before Outzone, but I'd pick the latter any day of the week. Outzone's game flow is pretty tight once you get the hang of the stage layouts, where to bomb, etc, and is a lot of fun for marathon play with autofire. Can't say the same for its sequel (motorbike sections with horrible hit detection, the question mark system, platforms that can softlock, and a 5 min+ milk on the stage 5 walkers for each loop?!)

Outzone's stage 6 boss recovery isn't too bad in the first loop if you can misdirect his attacks to get some damage in his eye & bomb when he gets too close to you. It's a lot tricker on subsequent loops, especially if you don't have autofire.
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need

Post by bitcoinboi »

strange that every outzone mame rom that i play wont die when it comes to second stage and later stages . it makes the game easy and turned me off from playing it . anyone knows if theres a possible fix for this . im using retoarch , mame core (without years ) if im not mistaken
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need

Post by Licorice »

Check the dip switches.
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need

Post by bitcoinboi »

Licorice wrote:Check the dip switches.
are you replying to my post ? so after checking . what should i change
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need

Post by Licorice »

There's an invulnerability switch. Turn it off.
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need

Post by ATTRACTS »

bitcoinboi wrote:
Licorice wrote:Check the dip switches.
are you replying to my post ? so after checking . what should i change
Usually this is switch #7.
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need

Post by bitcoinboi »

ATTRACTS wrote:
bitcoinboi wrote:
Licorice wrote:Check the dip switches.
are you replying to my post ? so after checking . what should i change
Usually this is switch #7.
thanks i try
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need

Post by PerishedFraud ឵឵ ឵឵ »

I love ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵! ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵Out
឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵ ឵឵Zone
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need

Post by Sumez »

So I've been searching the internet high and low for information, and at this point I'm not sure anyone knows, but I'm gonna try asking anyway.
I was checking out a high scoring replay the other day, and there's a massive difference in how the game plays at least on the first loop, compared to my PCB. In the replay, enemies were barely shooting on the first loop, especially on the first few stages, and at least twice as many items appeared, allowing the player to stock up 10 bombs super early on, and carry them all the way to the end.

It seems my PCB is outfitted with what mame identifies as the "harder" version. Despatche's score thread theorizes this as a bootleg rom, which is one thing I'm quite sure it's not.
I digged out the person I'd bought my PCB from, who said he bought the PCB like that from another German seller back in who knows when. Instead of the regular Toaplan stickers you normally see, those two EPROMs have labels printed from something called "Nova Apparate" identifying the roms as "HDER" (which is probably where "harder" came from).
The only relation I can find between Nova Apparate and Toaplan, is that they were a German arcade distributor who managed to get their name on the title screen of the "world" version of Vimana, indicating that they were at least the officially licensed distributor for Germany, if not all of Europe (and in the case of Vimana at least, the only one outside Japan?)

Another piece of the puzzle comes from the MAME source's analysis of the code changes between the versions. It notes that due to the few changes in the code, all of the later code is shifted in the ROM which to me suggests that this version was built from source code, and not a hack created in machine code, as that would have required editing every piece of code referring to ROM addresses, which would be insane.

Finally, the Zero Wing factory conversion, which is an official release of the game based on Zero Wing TP-015 hardware, had the program ROMs changed as well, hacking up a few things to make the game work correctly with the slightly different PCB layout. But from what I've heard, this version also plays at a higher difficulty, with the enemies shooting more aggressively right from the start. The question is, does it play identically to the normal "harder" rom set? I haven't tried it myself, and it seems mame doesn't have it?

So my conclusions based on this is:
- The harder version was probably made by Toaplan themselves, possibly based on arcade operator feedback about the game being too easy.
- The harder version was at least distributed officially in Europe.

And what I'd like to know is then:
- Did *all* European PCBs come with the harder rom set? I've digged up a few PCB pictures on Google, and the Nova Apparate stickers show up on a few of them.
- Did any Japanese PCBs come with them as well, possibly changed out by Toaplan for PCBs sold later during the game's production run?
- Should the harder version actually be considered the latest, and best revision of the game?


Honestly, the game on my PCB is still very easy to loop. The enemies shooting more frequently feels like intended behavior, and even with only half the item drops, you still get plenty of bombs to easily carry you through anything you don't feel like dealing with strategically. When I first found out my PCB had the "wrong" ROMs I wanted to convert it to the "official" version, but at this point I'm not sure I want to play a more watered down version for chumps :3
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need

Post by PerishedFraud ឵឵ »

In these trying times, it is important to remember that Out Zone is there to support you when you need it the most.
Spoiler
Image

Yes, this is probably an OZ reference. (From Batsugun)
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need

Post by Steven »

How have I not posted in this thread yet? I have (maybe not) important information about this game directly from its brilliant creator and also about its relationship with Batsugun.

First, according to Uemura-san, the hard version is in fact an export version of the game and is not the intended vision/version of the game. The intended version is the one that is, according to him, the one that I have on my PCB, and that ROM is the one listed in MAME and on MiSTer as Out Zone, without any of the (old), (older), (oldest), (harder), or Zero Wing conversion weirdness. After talking to some people, like the guy who owns Mikado, it seems unlikely that the hard ROM or the Zero Wing conversion were released in Japan, which supports Uemura-san saying that the hard ROM was an export version. Yeah, I know I don't really have any proof of this unless you'll accept a picture of my double signed Out Zone PCB, which is a treasure that by itself pretty much guarantees me eternal status as a True Out Zoner™.

Second, Batsugun. The dude in Out Zone is not Jeeno. There was that recent Shitty Connection rerelease of Saturn Batsugun, and the limited edition version came with a book, which is both relevant to Out Zone and pretty much the only reason that I bought that release. This book contains information about Batsugun that was previously never made public, and one of the things that Joker Jun mentioned in that book is that Batsugun's director, Tataka Yuuko, absolutely hated the idea of cyborg Jeeno being the dude from Out Zone, despite the visual similarity. As a result, cyborg Jeeno just looks (almost exactly) like the Out Zone dude and does the same type of work, according to Joker Jun. Whether or not he dies after not recharging his battery every 30 seconds or so like the Out Zone dudes is unknown.

Anyway, go play Out Zone. This game is so damn good. Even the weird hard version is good, even if it is weird.
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

Steven wrote:First, according to Uemura-san, the hard version is in fact an export version of the game and is not the intended vision/version of the game. The intended version is the one that is, according to him, the one that I have on my PCB, and that ROM is the one listed in MAME and on MiSTer as Out Zone, without any of the (old), (older), (oldest), (harder), or Zero Wing conversion weirdness. After talking to some people, like the guy who owns Mikado, it seems unlikely that the hard ROM or the Zero Wing conversion were released in Japan, which supports Uemura-san saying that the hard ROM was an export version.
Thanks for sharing this. Interesting that he openly talks about export versions as "unintended visions". And that he knows Mame so well.
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need

Post by Steven »

There are a few things to be careful about in the details here. I don't know how much he knows about MAME, but basically we were talking about the game and its many versions and I mentioned that the game has a bunch of ROM versions that those other versions are not the ones on my PCB and he specifically said that my PCB is the intended version. When specifically asked about the hard version being an export version, he said it was. It's possible that he doesn't remember perfectly, though, as he made the game over 30 years ago and he isn't exactly young anymore, but this is what he said.

As for the export versions being the unintended versions, that's been known for a long time; there are several interviews out there where I think it was Uemura-san that mentioned that the Japanese or 1P versions are the intended versions of Toaplan's games, and that the overseas or 2P versions are not, even though most of their sales or revenue or something came from overseas. This is very much in line with the Toaplan devs' mindset; in most cases they made exactly what they wanted to make, typically for the Japanese 1P versions, and then in most cases they later modified those games to make the overseas 2P versions.

There are exceptions, like Hellfire, in which case the 2P version was developed alongside the 1P version, with the 1P version being the primary vision of the game, and games like Out Zone, Tatsujin Ou, FixEight, and Batsugun, where there aren't separate 1P and 2P versions. Not sure about Zero Wing, but the 2P version fixes some bugs that are present in the 1P version, suggesting it was released later, and I do not think I have ever seen a Japanese 2P Zero Wing. Overseas 1P Hellfire is interesting, though, mostly because Uemura-san says it's probably fake. Probably fake.
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need

Post by PerishedFraud ឵឵ »

Steven wrote:Tataka Yuuko, absolutely hated the idea of cyborg Jeeno being the dude from Out Zone, despite the visual similarity. As a result, cyborg Jeeno just looks (almost exactly) like the Out Zone dude and does the same type of work.
This is absolutely hilarious.

I'm also glad the newbie-friendly version of OZ is the intended vision. Of course, it'll try to merc you in loops, but more people would get (would've gotten) to see all the game has to offer before it. Pretty damn based.
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need

Post by Steven »

Yep, and there is more evidence on Shmuplations that supports the normal version of Out Zone being the intended version, as well: first, the legendary Shooting Gameside interview:
—With Toaplan’s games, you can feel a certain experimentation towards making the games less difficult for people who thought they were too hard. Outzone is easier, and I think a lot of people came to love Toaplan through that game.

Uemura: Outzone doesn’t have forced scrolling, so it didn’t require the kind of special skills you need in a normal vertical scrolling game. In that regard I think we achieved an easier game. Actually, we wanted to make our vertical shooters easier too, so we’d initially make them quite easy for our location tests, but then someone would 1cc them in one day and we’d end up dramatically raising the difficulty level.
Second, the interview with Fujimoto and Ohta Lee from 1990, the year Out Zone was released, where they said this:
We don’t want to keep making games where the more you power-up, the more the difficulty increases. If I had to say, our company is now of the mindset that we should lower the difficulty of our games. There will continue to be STGs released that follow the trend of getting harder and harder; we’d like to follow a different path with our STG, and create a new style.
So yeah, they wanted to make stuff easier, not harder. Hellfire had a location test version that had you power down when hit instead of dying instantly, and both Same! Same! Same! and Tatsujin Ou were both intentionally made relatively easy for their original location tests before they really turned up the difficulty on both of those, although for differing reasons.
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need

Post by Wonderbanana »

Steven wrote:How have I not posted in this thread yet? I have (maybe not) important information about this game directly from its brilliant creator and also about its relationship with Batsugun.

First, according to Uemura-san, the hard version is in fact an export version of the game and is not the intended vision/version of the game. The intended version is the one that is, according to him, the one that I have on my PCB, and that ROM is the one listed in MAME and on MiSTer as Out Zone, without any of the (old), (older), (oldest), (harder), or Zero Wing conversion weirdness. After talking to some people, like the guy who owns Mikado, it seems unlikely that the hard ROM or the Zero Wing conversion were released in Japan, which supports Uemura-san saying that the hard ROM was an export version. Yeah, I know I don't really have any proof of this unless you'll accept a picture of my double signed Out Zone PCB, which is a treasure that by itself pretty much guarantees me eternal status as a True Out Zoner™.

Second, Batsugun. The dude in Out Zone is not Jeeno. There was that recent Shitty Connection rerelease of Saturn Batsugun, and the limited edition version came with a book, which is both relevant to Out Zone and pretty much the only reason that I bought that release. This book contains information about Batsugun that was previously never made public, and one of the things that Joker Jun mentioned in that book is that Batsugun's director, Tataka Yuuko, absolutely hated the idea of cyborg Jeeno being the dude from Out Zone, despite the visual similarity. As a result, cyborg Jeeno just looks (almost exactly) like the Out Zone dude and does the same type of work, according to Joker Jun. Whether or not he dies after not recharging his battery every 30 seconds or so like the Out Zone dudes is unknown.

Anyway, go play Out Zone. This game is so damn good. Even the weird hard version is good, even if it is weird.
I have a JP Out Zone which I ‘think’ is the hard version. On the intro when the ship flys down the door is closed and there is no character. I read somewhere this is a telltale sign its the harder variant?
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need

Post by Steven »

Wonderbanana wrote:I have a JP Out Zone which I ‘think’ is the hard version. On the intro when the ship flys down the door is closed and there is no character. I read somewhere this is a telltale sign its the harder variant?
This is one of the two oldest ROM revisions, not the hard version. You're probably missing this energy item box on stage 2
Spoiler
Image
There are a few other signs, like how the final ROM removed a hole near the end of stage 2, as well.

What does your PCB look like? It probably looks the same as the regular version, but I am pretty interested in the stickers on the ROM chips. I'm guessing those are also identical to the normal ROM, as well, but you never know.

The hard version basically starts you with loop 2's enemy behaviour but with the loop 1 enemy placement and stuff, which is mostly only noticeable because there seem to be less red enemies in loop 2.
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need

Post by Wonderbanana »

Interesting! I think you are right (see pic) and I’d love to know more about the version I’ve got.

Image

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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need to)

Post by sunnshiner »

Ok, possible can of worms here... I'm using FB Neo and there are various versions available-

outzone
outzonea
outzoneb
outzonec
outzonecv
outzoneh

Which is the 'intended' version please?
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need to)

Post by Steven »

outzone

Assuming it's the same one as MAME and MiSTer, anyway.
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need to)

Post by sunnshiner »

Lovely, thank you.
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need to)

Post by Steven »

Try the hard version if you want. I don't like it and consider it a weird variant of the game, but I can sort of see why someone would like it. The Zero Wing conversion ROM and the hard version ROM are probably identical.
Wonderbanana wrote: Sat Jul 15, 2023 5:04 pm Interesting! I think you are right (see pic) and I’d love to know more about the version I’ve got.

Image

Image
Oops, I forgot to reply... sorry.

It's probably the (older) version. That's what MAME and MiSTer call it, anyway. Your ROM chips look good to me. Mine are a bit different, as your 09 is an AMD chip and I think my 07 and 08 are AMD chips. I'll go check my board once I go home.
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Re: Play Out Zone, Today if Possible (feat. You Really Need to)

Post by MintyTheCat »

Alright chaps,

I have been meaning to play Out Zone for years and hadn't had the opportunity.

It came as part of the Astro City Mini V official titles, and I had a go on it last night.

Very good fun indeed and it kept on reminding me of Elemental Master on the MD.

Quite different to other Toaplan games that I've played too.
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