ldeveraux wrote:Lopenator wrote:Your comment sounded to me like you thought the brothers had the money sitting in an account somewhere, refusing to make refunds. I don't believe that's the case?
I got the sense that they were only paying Marshall with funds in an escrow account (entrusted funds specifically for that purpose - and that purpose only). That's what I was getting at with my questions for CZroe on the last page.
They need to make profit from somewhere. That workshop isn't paying it's own rent! Be it console installs, cable mods, or a slight markup in UltraHDMI sales, they need revenue to cover overhead. And the escrow account is not revenue! Using entrusted funds for anything other than the purpose for which they were given is the definition of embezzlement. A word I have been very careful to avoid using. Accusations are running rampant and I don't want to feed that fire.
However, perhaps it's time for Proof Of Funds (POF). For example, when someone writes you a check you can call the issuing bank and give them the name/account routing numbers. Then you can ask them to confirm if the account has sufficient funds to cover the check. That's a good way to avoid bouncing fees or getting screwed. Investors routinely ask for POF. It's not an unreasonable thing to ask for.
Given their personal misfortune it's tempting to have an account just sitting there with hundreds of thousands of dollars in it! Especially when they are having to sell their childhood game collection. In this day and age it's not unreasonable to be concerned about someone you don't personally know and gave money to on a niche forum.
A POF would go along way to reassure everyone. If the brothers called their bank and asked them for a safe way to prove the funds are still there. Perhaps even a reconciled spreadsheet showing the kits paid for, refunded, and remaining entrusted funds. If the numbers add up great! If entrusted funds are in a separate (sterile) account and not mingled in with other business or personal accounts, then it should be an easy process. A picture won't do, however. That's too easy to fake using the web browser's inspect element. We need POF that's independently verifiable. The bank should know what to do. They just need to have that conversation.
I want to make it clear I'm not accusing them of wrongdoing! These are legitimate concerns that are reasonable to be worried about. They can prove they are on the up and up if the funds are intact. And if they're not entirely, now's the time to come clean. A little personal account mingling might be forgivable for a novice, so long as there is enough to cover the difference and refund everyone. But if their net worth is less than the amount needed to refund
everyone not currently allocated a kit they have on hand, or paid for and on the way, then we have a problem.
Oh, and to answer Lethal's question. 2 years ago would have been a reasonable time frame for this round to have been over. I waited 5 months for my 6th round kit and thought that was a long time. No one is disputing this round is LONG overdo! But that doesn't prove wrong doing on the turners part all by its self. All of the delays up to December 2020 were Marshall's fault. The tonado put a hitch in the delivery schedule and we're finally getting past that now. Lethal is correct that further delays will not be excusable. Now is crunch time!
Kits are SLOWLY trickling out of their workshop. Slowly being the operative word. IMO, they need to change up their current approach. So to follow, I have taken the liberty of creating a proposal. Instead of contacting everyone 1-by-1 as you move down through the list, this is an example e-mail that you could use to to create separate groups and expedite the process for everyone...
An example E-mail survey to confirm everyone's current choice
Note: This is just a suggestion and example. It's probably incomplete and needs to be customized further according to the brother needs. That is if they choose to use it at all.
To: Group Buy Round 7 Members[...]
From: CZroe
CC: Ichinisan
Subject: [URGENT] UltraHDMI Round 7 - Confirm your choices
Why this E-mail?
In order to expedite round 7 and get people their kits ASAP, we need you all to complete the following survey.
What we require from you:
You MUST compose a separate e-mail! DO NOT REPLY TO THIS EMAIL!
You MUST place "[UltraHDMI Survey]" into the subject line of your email (without quotes). I will use search my email using [UltraHDMI Survey] as a filter. If you do not compose an e-mail with this exact subject heading in the next 2 week's, we will give your spot in line to the next user on the list!
Please only answer Yes or No questions with a Yes or No. We need to confirm everyone's choices quickly to get you your kits ASAP! If you have questions, pleas ask them on the SHMUPS forum (link here).
In the body of your e-mail please answer the following questions.
"Confirm the alias you gave us on your preorder and payment details. Also confirm your current name/shipping address: _________________"
"Do you still want an install (Y/N). Disclaimer: Installs will be placed into a separate line than DIY kits. If you choose to have us install your kit, you will be contacted in order of your place in line to confirm addresses and have you ship us your console. This process takes longer."
"Do you want a DIY kit (Y/N). Disclaimer: DIY will be shipped sooner, because they are easier to fulfill. If you previously chose an install option, you may elect to change to a DIY kit now. This way you can get your kit sooner. You may install it yourself or choose your own installer."
"If you have multiple kits on order and want DIY and Install's, plesae indicate the number of installs and the number of DIY kits. (# of installs: __ # of DIY kit's: __). Please note, DIY kits will be shipped ASAP. We will contact you later to have you ship your console(s) to us once we get to your place in the install line."
"We have XX number of N64 Digitals. If one is available, do want to change your UltraHDMI kit to a N64 Digital (Y/N)? Disclaimer: There is a limit of 1 N64 Digital per person. If you paid for multiple UltraHDMI kits, only one of them may be switched to N64 Digital. Users will be allocated a N64 Digital according to their place in line on the spreadsheet. Once all N64 Digital's have been allocated, everyone else will receive UltraHDMI kits. Once you respond to this e-mail with your decision, your choice is locked in. You cannot change your mind based on which HDMI mod you are allocated!"
"We currently have XXX number of kits available. If you are currently allocated a kit from the batch we have on hand, or have ordered from Marshall, you're money has already been spent and you are not elegible for a refund. You will be receiving a kit according to your choices above. Once you submit this e-mail, you cannot change your mind! XXX kits are available on hand or on order. If you are number XXX+1 or after, your money is still in our business account and eligible for a refund. You are not yet locked in! Would you like a refund? Or would you like to stay in the group buy, knowing that it could be many months before Marshall allows us to purchase more kits? Disclaimer: If you choose to stay in the group buy, you can ask for a refund up until we Pay Marshall for more kits. Once paid, we will allocate the kits on order and lock users in according to their place on the spreadsheet. Once locked in, you are no longer eligible for a refund. Please indicate your choice (Refund me now! I want to stay and wait for a kit.)"
The TL;DR
Ichinisan, CZroe, why not stop what you're doing and do this now?
1) Set up a meeting with your bank and get POF to reassure everyone their money is safe.
2) Send a group e-mail like the one suggested above. Filter the emails by the subject you required them to include. Collect user decisions to update the spreadsheet and allocate kits. Those users are locked in, since their money is already spent.
3) Refund everyone wanting a refund and who's not allocated a kit! If you kept a separate sterile account, that should not be a problem. If paypal fees are a problem, then stop eating the cost and make people pay it themselves. It's a small charge compared to their investment! And If Marshall charged you for those extra DAC's and it was paid out of the escrow account, then ask him for a refund. That's his mistake, not the group's!
4) Ship DIY kits first or as you receive them from Marshall.
5) Contact the remaining users electing to have installs and coordinate to have their console shipped you you for install. If they choose to have an install knowing the above, and you give them an opprituinity to switch to a DIY kit earlier, then they won't mind waiting.
6) If there are users not allocated a kit after that, refund them or start a new group buy round 8. It should be clearly delineated that round 7 is over and that round 8 will be another wait. Round 8 users should not be subsidizing round 7! That's a Ponzi scheme!