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 Post subject: 240 to 540p for SONY Trinitron KV-32HS510 HDCRT Dump Find
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 6:12 pm 


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It was beautiful day so I decided to treat my self to a trip to the dump to hunt for 19, 25, and 27 donors for my arcades..

I came across this thing and my brother wants me to snag it.

Sony KV-32HS510.

I see opnions online saying that unless the image is 1080i or 540p the internal scaling during that era created input lag and would not be ideal for 240p input even when line doubled to 480p. Drat I planned on using the OSSC at 2x to create a tolerable experience and thick scanlines.

I was wondering if there is a way with either the Framemeister, GBS control, or OSSC to output in 540p or 1080i and not have giant borders and proper line blanking?

And how bad is the input lag? I have another 34" WEGA widescreen and didn't mind the input lag but I have been reading its around 2 frames delay on this thing.


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Last edited by Hoagtech on Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p ?
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 7:26 pm 


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JFYI a more descriptive topic title might attract more interest...

I used to own, the HS420 I believe. It did not play well with the OSSC directly. Once in a blue moon it would work with the OSSC through a DVDO (non-green) EDGE.

I too was chasing 540p, but I'd read somewhere that 480p isn't actually treated *badly* as it simply stretches the scan to the internal "540p" real estate. There are service menu items to toggle to decrease the lag.

https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... _wega_and/

It's a set worth grabbing to experiment with IMHO. I have another HD CRT in the garage waiting for a weekend off to play with...

(also, you place a lot more faith in plastic bezels than I would--especially with their age. Many turn to literal dust.)


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p ?
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 8:15 pm 


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Is it capable of displaying 720p directly without scaling?


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p ?
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 9:18 pm 


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HDgaming42 wrote:
JFYI a more descriptive topic title might attract more interest...

I used to own, the HS420 I believe. It did not play well with the OSSC directly. Once in a blue moon it would work with the OSSC through a DVDO (non-green) EDGE.

I too was chasing 540p, but I'd read somewhere that 480p isn't actually treated *badly* as it simply stretches the scan to the internal "540p" real estate. There are service menu items to toggle to decrease the lag.

https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... _wega_and/

It's a set worth grabbing to experiment with IMHO. I have another HD CRT in the garage waiting for a weekend off to play with...

(also, you place a lot more faith in plastic bezels than I would--especially with their age. Many turn to literal dust.)


Those lag numbers aren’t too bad after settings adjustment.

14ms 480p over DVI..

I wish my Bodnar wasn’t 1080p. I would love to see a lag test that wasn’t based on Guitar Hero software.

Thanks for the article. The kids were having so much fun climbing on the TVs and mom wasn’t around. I didn’t want to ruin their fun ATM, but I was thinking the same thing..

Does anyone know if duck hunt works on HDcrt?
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Last edited by Hoagtech on Mon May 31, 2021 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p ?
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 9:21 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
Is it capable of displaying 720p directly without scaling?


It claims to “support it” but from the comments I’m reading on YouTube and Reddit. It seems to have a native of 1080i and 540p.

TBH my interlaced knowledge is lacking..
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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p ?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:34 am 


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Hoagtech wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
Is it capable of displaying 720p directly without scaling?


It claims to “support it” but from the comments I’m reading on YouTube and Reddit. It seems to have a native of 1080i and 540p.

TBH my interlaced knowledge is lacking..


It'll do 720p just fine, but you're right in that that's not a "native" resolution. To be honest, I quite liked the look of the Wii U on it in 720p. For most games, the 360 and Wii U weren't rendering internally any higher than that anyway.

The unit I had exhibited bad dynamic convergence in the corners, which I'm told isn't unusual. It was an enjoyable experiment, and only took a bit of time to pay forward to other locals interested in the tech when I was done with it.


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:47 am 


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I have a 36" HS420 sitting in my shop right now and I have a Time Sleuth and GBS-Control. Last time I fired it up I had neither, but tested direct 240p via YPbPr (SNES) and 480p via YPbPr (GC). Direct 240p lag is BAD, its very noticeable in SMW, I'd venture to guess about 48-64ms. 480p seemed much better, from the feel I'd guess 16-32ms.

My Time Sleuth can currently output 1080i, 480p, 720p, 480i, and 1080p. I have an Altera USB Blaster incoming so I can program other resolutions in soon. I wasnt aware of the lag reducing service menu settings mentioned above but am very interested to try them out, along with my GBS-C and RT5X Pro.

The unit has a really great and uniform picture, I'll give it that, but its the heaviest display by a decent margin that I've ever put my hands on. Its a monstrous beast. I'd be willing to test some scenarios for you if you throw some out there.


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 2:00 am 


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Josh128 wrote:
I have a 36" HS420 sitting in my shop right now and I have a Time Sleuth and GBS-Control. Last time I fired it up I had neither, but tested direct 240p via YPbPr (SNES) and 480p via YPbPr (GC). Direct 240p lag is BAD, its very noticeable in SMW, I'd venture to guess about 48-64ms. 480p seemed much better, from the feel I'd guess 16-32ms.

My Time Sleuth can currently output 1080i, 480p, 720p, 480i, and 1080p. I have an Altera USB Blaster incoming so I can program other resolutions in soon. I wasnt aware of the lag reducing service menu settings mentioned above but am very interested to try them out, along with my GBS-C and RT5X Pro.

The unit has a really great and uniform picture, I'll give it that, but its the heaviest display by a decent margin that I've ever put my hands on. Its a monstrous beast. I'd be willing to test some scenarios for you if you throw some out there.


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Thanks for the offer Josh. If you read above. Their are options to disable image processing in the service menu if you can find your remote.

I would not be running natively but through the DVI port at 480p with OSSC 2x.

That way I could have my fat scanlines through the OSSC.

Even after the service menu adjustments the input lag is poor through component connections except for 720p

(Snip from article:)

“Update:

I went ahead and checked how much delay feeding the TV non 1080i resolutions after changing the above service menu setting would cause and here are my results:

Component:

480i 50ms

480p: 30ms

720p: 14ms

DVI:

480p: 14ms

720p: 16ms“ (end snip)

I would imagine your 240p May be even worse like 75ms input lag but the service menu changes and forcing scaling through OSSC breathes new life into flawed tech like these mid 2000’s Sony’s.

I would love some tips on accessing the service menu as the article was bit vague on the exact process, but if your down I would love to hear your results if you have an OSSC lying around and feel like accessing the service menu
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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:59 am 


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How the heck does a HD tube TV end up with as much or more input lag than many recent LCDs?


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:11 am 



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Other Sony HDCRTs (not sure if all) I believe are zero lag at 1080i with service menu changes.

I also believe the OSSC Pro should cater to these Sony owners as it will be able to put 480p in a 540p frame viewtopic.php?p=1426428#p1426428


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:19 am 


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strayan wrote:
Other Sony HDCRTs (not sure if all) I believe are zero lag at 1080i with service menu changes.

I also believe the OSSC Pro should cater to these Sony owners as it will be able to put 480p in a 540p frame viewtopic.php?p=1426428#p1426428


The news gets even better..

Is it going be an update for the existing OSSC?
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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:29 am 


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No, the OSSC Pro is a next-gen standalone device, and will cost significantly more than the OSSC.


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:47 am 


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Guspaz wrote:
No, the OSSC Pro is a next-gen standalone device, and will cost significantly more than the OSSC.


I realise that. I was just wondering if it would be implemented in the OSSC as it doesn’t seem to require a frame buffer to output 480p in a 540p frame.

If Marqs doesn’t want to update the OSSC because of the new release I would understand as well.

You may have answered my question with “No” but I wanted to verify the reasoning.
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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:50 am 


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BrianC wrote:
How the heck does a HD tube TV end up with as much or more input lag than many recent LCDs?


1999 era upscaling/video processing technology. Even today TVs are more concerned with upscaling/cleaning up video to make it look better scaled at a higher resolution rather than input lag. Thankfully companies have wised up and included options to turn off all processing to improve input lag.

Just to show how far we have come with LCD technology, the 32" LG QHD IPS display I just bought this weekend measures an incredible 1ms, 8ms, 16ms (ie within 1ms of my CRTs) when tested at the top, middle, and bottom of the display respectively with the Time Sleuth input lag tester. It blew me away and it wasnt expected. The 24" I replaced with it was testing around 4 to 8ms (dont remember exactly) at the top of the display.


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 1:34 pm 


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Hoagtech wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
No, the OSSC Pro is a next-gen standalone device, and will cost significantly more than the OSSC.


I realise that. I was just wondering if it would be implemented in the OSSC as it doesn’t seem to require a frame buffer to output 480p in a 540p frame.

If Marqs doesn’t want to update the OSSC because of the new release I would understand as well.

You may have answered my question with “No” but I wanted to verify the reasoning.


It would require a partial framebuffer, since it would require buffering a bunch more lines. I don't know to what extent that's possible. From what I understand, the OSSC is pretty maxed out.


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:39 pm 


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Oh SNAP!!! Did some quick and dirty testing of my HS420 with Time Sleuth into the HDMI In port and got a plethora of results, which I dont have time to get into now.

However, I can say, after the svc menu adjustments, I had an incredible lag result on one of the resolutions that shocked me and is definitely not a fluke.

Spoiler: show
Its less than the lag of the LG monitors I just posted in the PixelFX Morph thread! (ie ZERO lag)


Last edited by Josh128 on Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:11 pm 



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Timesleuth results for the Sony KV-30HS420 HDCRT have been posted before https://www.retrorgb.com/lagtest.html


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:51 pm 


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Josh128 wrote:
Oh SNAP!!! Did some quick and dirty testing of my HS420 with Time Sleuth into the HDMI In port and got a plethora of results, which I dont have time to get into now.

However, I can say, after the svc menu adjustments, I had an incredible lag result on one of the resolutions that shocked me and is definitely not a fluke.

Spoiler: show
Its less than the lag of the LG monitors I just posted in the PixelFX Morph thread! (ie ZERO lag) :shock:


Right on josh. How many parameters did you have to adjust in the service menu and what was the resolution you had the best result on?

These TVs are he gonna be awesome. I can feel it.
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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:16 am 


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OK, so prior to adjusting the settings (YOSW, HDPT, and MIDE) I took measurements and they were as follows. Note I took measurements at the top left of the screen, center left, and bottom left, but Im only going to include the top left, as the mid and bottom followed by + ~7 and + ~14 as you would expect. I'll update with photos later.

Pre-service menu changes lag:

480i: 48.8ms
480p: 14.7ms
720p: 14.7ms
1080i: 31.4ms

Post-service menu changes lag:

1080i: 0.8ms

All other modes showed no change from initial readings. I did notice some random screen shake/jitter/jumpiness that occured every few seconds in 480p mode after the changes were made, but I did not have time to revert the settings to see if the original values would fix the jitter.

So yeah, if you have a scaler that can output 1080i (and presumably 540p or just progressive image in 1080 mode) this dude would make a killer gaming set. 480p in a 540p frame would have some rather large black bars on the top and bottom, but because this is a CRT Im confident that you could vertically stretch that image to fill the screen. All that said, Im not sure of any currently available scaler that can do that (output 1080i or 540p). It would definitely be a niche use case, but it could make for a killer giant "multisync" CRT along the lines of what can be accomplished with a VGA CRT and a GBS-Control. It would be awesome if someone could implement it on an existing scaler (Mike Chi, we love you buddy! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: ) but I wouldnt hold my breath for it.


Last edited by Josh128 on Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:18 am 



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The Extron 301 HD should be able to.


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:01 pm 


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Photo montage of Time Sleuth results of Trinitron Wega 36HS420.

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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:55 pm 


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That's also still a very respectable amount of latency for 480p and 720p, though the 480i results are terrible.


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:53 pm 


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Yeah, I bet 480i and 240p are the same. If what I experienced with smw via component 240p was this same 48ms, that's definitely a no go. It was very noticeable.

I have plans to chain TimeSleuth>HDMI to VGA converter>GBS-C component out via DE-15>DE-15 to component cable to the set to see if lag changes via the component in and which GBS-C out resolutions are supported by the set.


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:18 pm 


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14ms ain’t bad and should look good with OSSC at 2x.

I’m hoping for a scaler feature that doesn’t add a frame of lag to a 540p target.

I had a border problem with my 16:9 WEGA that was mitigated through the service menu legend so I’m sure you could stretch the raster rather than stretch image through a scaler.

I would test myself but I’m camping till Sunday in my trailer.
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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:29 pm 


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Josh128 wrote:
OK, so prior to adjusting the settings (YOSW, HDPT, and MIDE) I took measurements and they were as follows. Note I took measurements at the top left of the screen, center left, and bottom left, but Im only going to include the top left, as the mid and bottom followed by + ~7 and + ~14 as you would expect. I'll update with photos later.

Pre-service menu changes lag:

480i: 48.8ms
480p: 14.7ms
720p: 14.7ms
1080i: 31.4ms

Post-service menu changes lag:

1080i: 0.8ms

All other modes showed no change from initial readings. I did notice some random screen shake/jitter/jumpiness that occured every few seconds in 480p mode after the changes were made, but I did not have time to revert the settings to see if the original values would fix the jitter.

So yeah, if you have a scaler that can output 1080i (and presumably 540p or just progressive image in 1080 mode) this dude would make a killer gaming set. 480p in a 540p frame would have some rather large black bars on the top and bottom, but because this is a CRT Im confident that you could vertically stretch that image to fill the screen. All that said, Im not sure of any currently available scaler that can do that. It would definitely be a niche use case, but it could make for a killer giant "multisync" CRT along the lines of what can be accomplished with a VGA CRT and a GBS-Control. It would be awesome if someone could implement it on an existing scaler (Mike Chi, we love you buddy! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: ) but I wouldnt hold my breath for it.
Just change HDPT and you're good.

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CH-17DXA(TVL800),Samsung UBJ590(LED),Panasonic P50VT20(Plasma),JVC RS400(LCoS),Optoma27HDR(DLP)


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:49 pm 


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Bahn Yuki wrote:
Just change HDPT and you're good.



Yeah, I just did some more experimentation and discovered that was the one that made the 1080i zero lag difference. The other settings dont affect the lag at all at any resolutions that I can tell. Also, I chained the TS>VGA converter>GBS-C>component out to the TV and checked lag there. Some really wonky numbers that would sometimes change when I changed the TS resolution or changed the output GBS-C resolution. 480p out was generally around 20ms or so and 720p out was 14ms. 1080i out was not an option on the GBS-C, so I couldnt test, but I would assume from these tests that regardless of HDMI or YPbPr input, the lag is the same.

So with a GBS-C, you need to feed 720p to the set. I tested sending 480i to the GBS-C in this mode and got 14ms of lag on the TS after re-syncing/switching resolutions a couple times. Same for 480p in. A hell of a lot better than the horrible 48ms of direct-fed 480i.

I also tested the RT5X with the set, note that the only two output resolutions the set will sync to at all from it are 480p and 720p. Played around with both, but came to the conclusion that direct-fed 480p from the GC is superior in clarity and aspect ratio options. 480i though, say from a PS2, would greatly benefit in terms of reduced lag from either scaler vs feeding direct to the set.

Ideally, you would need a device that could take in 240p, 480i, and 480p and scale those to 1080i or 540p. The GBS-C and RT5X Pro are at best capable of starting at 14ms of lag with their 720p modes.


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:09 pm 


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Some images of 480i lag through GBS-C and GC w/ official component cables direct into set. Experiencing this right after the RT5X Pro on my 1440p monitor makes the CRT difference clear-- the complete lack of blur in motion is probably the most striking difference, and my LG panel is quite decent in that regard, but theres no comparison. Also the emissive display of a CRT just looks more alive. Its hard to put into words.

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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:35 am 


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Josh128 wrote:
but because this is a CRT Im confident that you could vertically stretch that image to fill the screen. All that said, Im not sure of any currently available scaler that can do that. .


You have to do this in the service menu. Impossible to do with a scaler, because the scaler doesn't control the CRT's yoke.

I've fucked around with HS Sony's a lot, so I can add some information:

We say 1080i and 540p for shorthand, but really, it's 33.75kHz frequency signals that have zero lag.

I've made custom resolutions on PC with different vertical refresh rates, from as low as 56kHz up to 72kHz. You increase or decrease the resolution to maintain 33.75kHz horizontal. Specifically, I could run 1536x864 @ 72hz, which was perfect for 24fps movies. You don't notice the resolution drop, but you do notice the elimination of 3:2 judder.

And there was a little bit of play around 33.75kHz. Really, just about any frequency between 33.00kHz and 34.00kHz should be useable. And between 56Hz and 72Hz vertical blanking, in my experience.

So yeah, for lag free 480p, you'd need a way to center it in a 540p signal, then stretch the raster via the service menu. Of course, then you have to play everything through that scaler, because any other signal, like 1080i from a Xbox 360, would now be severely overscanned.


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:24 am 


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If you're seeing 3:2 judder on a 60Hz display, be sure to try smooth motion in MadVR. Set it to enabled with "only if there would be motion judder without it" selected. It's a frame blending system (not motion interpolation), it will completely eliminate judder at the expense of some loss in motion clarity... which is usually not noticeable for 24 FPS film content that already has significant motion blur to begin with.

It's not as good as matching or higher framerates, to be clear, but it's a big improvement for 24-on-60.

It's also useful on 144Hz displays showing 30 or 60 FPS content, and 165Hz displays showing 24/30/60 FPS content. The motion clarity loss is much reduced on high refresh rate displays, but an even better option for those scenarios is to set MadVR to set the monitor to 120Hz when it goes full screen, leaving smooth motion to only handle windowed video playback.


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:41 am 


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BazookaBen wrote:
Josh128 wrote:
but because this is a CRT Im confident that you could vertically stretch that image to fill the screen. All that said, Im not sure of any currently available scaler that can do that. .


You have to do this in the service menu. Impossible to do with a scaler, because the scaler doesn't control the CRT's yoke.


Of course-- my poorly worded reference to the scaler was concerning the 1080i/540p output. The 5X and GBS cant currently do that (though I tried to put a bug in Mikes ear for a future update.) I had forgotten about the OSSC though. Maybe its capable of that + faux scanlines for 240p content over this 33.75kHz output?

BazookaBen wrote:
I've fucked around with HS Sony's a lot, so I can add some information:

We say 1080i and 540p for shorthand, but really, it's 33.75kHz frequency signals that have zero lag.

I've made custom resolutions on PC with different vertical refresh rates, from as low as 56kHz up to 72kHz. You increase or decrease the resolution to maintain 33.75kHz horizontal. Specifically, I could run 1536x864 @ 72hz, which was perfect for 24fps movies. You don't notice the resolution drop, but you do notice the elimination of 3:2 judder.

And there was a little bit of play around 33.75kHz. Really, just about any frequency between 33.00kHz and 34.00kHz should be useable. And between 56Hz and 72Hz vertical blanking, in my experience.

So yeah, for lag free 480p, you'd need a way to center it in a 540p signal, then stretch the raster via the service menu. Of course, then you have to play everything through that scaler, because any other signal, like 1080i from a Xbox 360, would now be severely overscanned.


Interesting observations. As previously mentioned, 480p direct has exactly 1 frame of lag as is, I really think that's acceptable for 99% of all people. It's just an OCD kind of annoyance to have any lag at all on a CRT, but yeah, without some kind of scaler (even one that can do 480p) 240p and 480i sources are basically unusable.


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