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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 8:45 pm 



Joined: 07 Oct 2015
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Guspaz wrote:
480i output? Because the RT5X supports 480i input, it's kind of its strongest feature, with the deinterlacing.


Pretty much the only use case for 480i would be archiving interlaced material. The only other application I could think of is if someone with a 15khz only CRT wants to use the RT5X as a transcoder with a DAC. I have done that with the OSSC since the Toshiba TIMM lacks component inputs.


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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 9:16 pm 


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What do you think the new OSSC will have over the Retrotink5X, apart from what I mentioned above about custom zooming and horizontal/vertical positioning?

the OSSC Pro is for people who upgrade from an OSSC to a 5X and feel left out, because the 5X takes over so many settings you had to do manually on the OSSC.

Biggest point for me will be a full 4:4:4 processing pipeline with a digital input.


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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 4:57 am 


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I just remembered that the OSSC Pro won't be able to do S-Video without some kind of upgrade later on, so it won't be a solution at all for capturing S-Video VHS footage. What is the upgrade for S-Video that people were talking about anyway? I don't understand what it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2021 7:21 pm 


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The OSSC Pro by default does not support composite or s-video input. You need to install an add-on module with the appropriate decoders. It will be sold separately and later, AFAIK.


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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 1:22 am 


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Guspaz wrote:
The OSSC Pro by default does not support composite or s-video input. You need to install an add-on module with the appropriate decoders. It will be sold separately and later, AFAIK.


Will it require soldering? How would you be able to attach it to the OSSC Pro?


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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 6:52 am 


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I'm not sure they've specifically stated, but I would assume it's via a header.


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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 11:05 am 



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The DigitalFAQ forum has a ton of knowledge and information on high quality VHS capture, but that comes at a (big) cost, and on equipment that is (a) no longer in production, and (b) not designed for or used with retro game console signals.

One interesting and potentially much cheaper option is to look into the vhs-decode project and RF capture. vhs-decode in its current state can't really beat S-Video capture from a JVC/Panasonic S-VHS VCR with a high quality external TBC, but the cool thing about it is once you get a good RF capture (which may only require a cheap cxadc capture card and access to your VCR's RF test point), that capture is pretty much 'future proof' as long as the open source vhs-decode software keeps improving as ld-decode has over the years, the latter now producing results as good or better than traditional video capture from the best, most expensive LD players without actually having to own one.

There are much simpler, cheaper options too of course, it all just comes down to how much you want to put into it.

FinalBaton wrote:
I'm sure he's not the most perfectionist/knowledgeable when it comes to this, but the dude at Technology Connections youtube channel shared a cheap setup that seems to provide very nce result. he had one of those cheap composite to hdmi scalers I think, which for games are crap but for video they seem fine. That method is cheap, and you don't have to mess with deinteracing options. (seems it's stretched to 16:9 though, but you can correct that in post). you won't sink cost into this method which is it's advantage. his captures shown in his video look very very clean and vibrant to me, but is it THE most perfect capture? probably not. the comb filter in that cheap scaler looks pretty good at elinating dot crawl, so I wouldn't worry about using composite instead of S-video.

His method worked fine for him and probably would for many at a very basic level, but it was the retro gaming equivalent of telling someone to buy a cheap SCART to HDMI converter off Amazon that interprets 240p as 480i and hook it up to an Elgato with an RGB range mismatch. Though even that can't really compare to the sync issues you'll get with more troublesome tapes and cheaper equipment. It's not a method I'd really recommend.


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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 12:16 pm 


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^^^^^^^^
While I get the sentiment of your post, I think you went too far with your example.

The cheap Scart scaler looks abysmal and actually as bad as your tv doing the upscaling.

His method gets you 85% of the way there. Come on it looks damn fine.

I know there's a rabbit hole and all sorts of little upgrades you can do, but with VHS you hit the law of diminishing returns VERY quickly. There's just not a ton of depth on the tape to begin with.

For sure if you want to get the last 15%, you should get in addition of a great deck : a TBC, and then spend some time testing different upscaling techniques and res and settings.
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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 1:43 pm 



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From what I remember, that method resulted in combing artifacts, black crush, boosted colour saturation, stretching, needless scaling. Those aren't problems with the VHS standard, just bad choices in the capture. No TBC of any kind, which isn't just a nice last 5% thing for perfectionists to have as much as a must have for certain tapes and can be the difference between getting a picture or not, among other things. This is the difference a pseudo-TBC like that built in to the Panasonic DMR-ES10 DVD recorder can make, or that of a Sony DVR.

With VHS, you shouldn't be deinterlacing or scaling when capturing. That's a display problem, not something that should be locked in to the capture.

I don't see what makes it that different from plugging a SNES or something directly into a flat panel display, you're mangling the signal in similar ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 2:24 pm 


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I get great results capturing from my deck (Sony SVO-1610) via composite and then deinterlacing and upscaling in post. as I said previously
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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 11:14 pm 



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Watching the MLIG review of the 5X it just dawned on me that "Triple Buffer" mode works exactly like a full frame/infinite window TBC. They even confirmed it with VHS recording samples in the review. Having that function for VCR capture would be huge considering all the good external TBCs are now out of production.


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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:19 pm 



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The Pixel FX Morph is also specifically advertised as having a 'Film Mode' with full frame time base correction.


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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 10:21 pm 


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Not to change the subject, but something else that's troubling for me is capturing Hi-8 tapes. At the moment, I still have my family's Sony video camera from 1997 and all it has is monaural Yellow/White outputs. I went on ebay last year, and purchased a *lemon* Cannon Hi-8 video camera with S-Video output. I knew it didn't work when I bought it, but I thought I could get someone to repair it for me, but all of the camera repair centers I talked to said those particular Canon Hi-8 cameras were faulty to begin with and unrepairable. That's $55 down the crapper. Does anyone know of a Hi-8 S-Video outputting camera that doesn't suck?


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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 5:18 am 


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Guspaz wrote:
It can handle input at 240p, 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i. It can output at 240p (downscaling), 480p, 720p, 768p, 1080p, 1200p, and 1440p.

240p can be multiplied by up to 6x. 480i/480p can be multiplied by up to 3x. 720p and 1080i input can only be passthrough, and are chroma limited. 480i can be deinterlaced with the full suite (including motion adaptive), but 1080i can only be bob deinterlaced.

You can get a list of the supported features on the website: https://www.retrotink.com/product-page/5x-pro

You can also get more details in the user manual: https://36c4ce24-ea9e-4fcf-85dd-62475fa ... 8707a4.pdf

So does the 5X use 4:4:4 color sampling, because EposVox says that it just does 4:2:2 in his new video?

https://youtu.be/bP9cXiWOGt4?t=1029


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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 5:08 pm 


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It supersamples chroma on the input (takes more colour samples than luminance samples, so better than 4:4:4) for lower resolutions, does the scaling, and then processes in 4:2:2 at the output resolution. But because the subsampling happens after scaling, there isn't any loss in colour detail, so you get what is for most purposes going to look like a 4:4:4 output.

There was a bug in the launch firmware that caused some subtle misalignments on the chroma channel, which has been fixed in the upcoming firmware update.


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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 8:52 pm 


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Quote:
It supersamples chroma on the input (takes more colour samples than luminance samples, so better than 4:4:4) for lower resolutions

that's debatable :mrgreen: What the 5X does looks very nice, but the 4:2:2 path - as good as it's masked - keeps you from getting emulation-like integer scaled pixels on the horizontal.

Completely irrelevant for actual vcr capture of course.


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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 9:00 pm 



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Yes it should be clarified that it is "better" than a generic 4:4:4 ADC running at standard sampling modes but of course a super/optimal sampled 4:4:4 will be better than a super/optimal sampled 4:2:2.

And honestly, for VCR you might as well as start with the $10 AV2HDMI and see where that takes you before moving to more esoteric solutions due to the poor inherent quality of VHS tapes.


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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 9:17 pm 


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mikechi2 wrote:
Yes it should be clarified that it is "better" than a generic 4:4:4 ADC running at standard sampling modes but of course a super/optimal sampled 4:4:4 will be better than a super/optimal sampled 4:2:2.

And honestly, for VCR you might as well as start with the $10 AV2HDMI and see where that takes you before moving to more esoteric solutions due to the poor inherent quality of VHS tapes.


I wouldn't do that. Grab a Silicon Optix Image Anyplace, plug it in, and you'll get pretty good results. :-) They're only $150usd and they were actually built to handle this VCR use case. It wouldn't be the absolute best possible thing ever, but it's pretty darn good.

I know OP won't take the advice to heart, but someone else that stumbles around here might.
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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 9:19 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
Yes it should be clarified that it is "better" than a generic 4:4:4 ADC running at standard sampling modes but of course a super/optimal sampled 4:4:4 will be better than a super/optimal sampled 4:2:2.

And honestly, for VCR you might as well as start with the $10 AV2HDMI and see where that takes you before moving to more esoteric solutions due to the poor inherent quality of VHS tapes.


I wouldn't do that. Grab a Silicon Optix Image Anyplace, plug it in, and you'll get pretty good results. :-) They're only $150usd and they were actually built to handle this VCR use case. It wouldn't be the absolute best possible thing ever, but it's pretty darn good.

I know OP won't take the advice to heart, but someone else that stumbles around here might.


Oh that's cool, and quite reasonable for the price! Yeah I get what you're saying -- tbh, most of this has veered into the wrong tool for the job. VCRs have their own quirks and there are (were?) tools that were built specifically for this purpose. Video game scalers ain't it (at least for now).


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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 9:52 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
It supersamples chroma on the input (takes more colour samples than luminance samples, so better than 4:4:4) for lower resolutions

that's debatable :mrgreen: What the 5X does looks very nice, but the 4:2:2 path - as good as it's masked - keeps you from getting emulation-like integer scaled pixels on the horizontal.

Completely irrelevant for actual vcr capture of course.

I plan to use it for more than just S-Video VHS capture, but if it doesn't do 4:4:4 than I'll just wait for the OSSC Pro and wait for the S-Video adapter to come out for that thing too.


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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 9:55 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
Yes it should be clarified that it is "better" than a generic 4:4:4 ADC running at standard sampling modes but of course a super/optimal sampled 4:4:4 will be better than a super/optimal sampled 4:2:2.

And honestly, for VCR you might as well as start with the $10 AV2HDMI and see where that takes you before moving to more esoteric solutions due to the poor inherent quality of VHS tapes.


I wouldn't do that. Grab a Silicon Optix Image Anyplace, plug it in, and you'll get pretty good results. :-) They're only $150usd and they were actually built to handle this VCR use case. It wouldn't be the absolute best possible thing ever, but it's pretty darn good.

I know OP won't take the advice to heart, but someone else that stumbles around here might.


I'm looking at that device right now, but it's huge, and I don't know how you get sound into it. It doesn't use RCA audio jacks.


Last edited by Odolwa on Fri May 21, 2021 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 10:11 pm 


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The SOIA is video-only. You have to route audio around it.

You should only worry about 4:4:4 (or it's lack of) if you want to use optimized sampling along with integer scaling all the way. Once you deviate from that course, either by letting your display do additional scaling, by doing aspect ratio control beyond horizontal (or vertical) integer, it doesn't really matter anymore. And if you start to encode into a lossy codec with 4:2:0, then it doesn't matter anyway.

I think I've seen every single 5X review on Youtube by now and it's interesting to see how ESPECIALLY the content creators that want the 5X for capturing don't care at all for the lack of full 4:4:4. And they're right of course, because in the end it really doesn't matter for their workflow.

I am hands down the biggest fan of 4:4:4, but for some people it just makes no sense to demand it.


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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 10:13 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
The SOIA is video-only. You have to route audio around it.

You should only worry about 4:4:4 (or it's lack of) if you want to use optimized sampling along with integer scaling all the way. Once you deviate from that course, either by letting your display do additional scaling, by doing aspect ratio control beyond horizontal (or vertical) integer, it doesn't really matter anymore. And if you start to encode into a lossy codec with 4:2:0, then it doesn't matter anyway.

I think I've seen every single 5X review on Youtube by now and it's interesting to see how ESPECIALLY the content creators that want the 5X for capturing don't care at all for the lack of full 4:4:4. And they're right of course, because in the end it really doesn't matter for their workflow.

I am hands down the biggest fan of 4:4:4, but for some people it just makes no sense to demand it.

It's pretty expensive for a device that doesn't do 4:4:4. How come the manual pdf says it does, but Eposvox says it doesn't?


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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 10:21 pm 


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I think EV claimed that the actual output was 4:2:2 only, which is wrong. The output is RGB 4:4:4, only part of the internal processing is in 4:2:2 - just like on the Framemeister and essentially most other processors that do processing in YUV colorspace.


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 Post subject: Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 2:01 am 


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What about Hi-8 tapes? Anybody have a good option to capture those? Should I try and locate a camera from way back that has S-Video?


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