Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

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NJRoadfan
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by NJRoadfan »

Guspaz wrote:480i output? Because the RT5X supports 480i input, it's kind of its strongest feature, with the deinterlacing.
Pretty much the only use case for 480i would be archiving interlaced material. The only other application I could think of is if someone with a 15khz only CRT wants to use the RT5X as a transcoder with a DAC. I have done that with the OSSC since the Toshiba TIMM lacks component inputs.
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Fudoh
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Fudoh »

What do you think the new OSSC will have over the Retrotink5X, apart from what I mentioned above about custom zooming and horizontal/vertical positioning?
the OSSC Pro is for people who upgrade from an OSSC to a 5X and feel left out, because the 5X takes over so many settings you had to do manually on the OSSC.

Biggest point for me will be a full 4:4:4 processing pipeline with a digital input.
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Odolwa
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Odolwa »

I just remembered that the OSSC Pro won't be able to do S-Video without some kind of upgrade later on, so it won't be a solution at all for capturing S-Video VHS footage. What is the upgrade for S-Video that people were talking about anyway? I don't understand what it is.
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Guspaz
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Guspaz »

The OSSC Pro by default does not support composite or s-video input. You need to install an add-on module with the appropriate decoders. It will be sold separately and later, AFAIK.
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Odolwa
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Odolwa »

Guspaz wrote:The OSSC Pro by default does not support composite or s-video input. You need to install an add-on module with the appropriate decoders. It will be sold separately and later, AFAIK.
Will it require soldering? How would you be able to attach it to the OSSC Pro?
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Guspaz
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Guspaz »

I'm not sure they've specifically stated, but I would assume it's via a header.
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FinalBaton
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by FinalBaton »

^^^^^^^^
While I get the sentiment of your post, I think you went too far with your example.

The cheap Scart scaler looks abysmal and actually as bad as your tv doing the upscaling.

His method gets you 85% of the way there. Come on it looks damn fine.

I know there's a rabbit hole and all sorts of little upgrades you can do, but with VHS you hit the law of diminishing returns VERY quickly. There's just not a ton of depth on the tape to begin with.

For sure if you want to get the last 15%, you should get in addition of a great deck : a TBC, and then spend some time testing different upscaling techniques and res and settings.
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FinalBaton
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by FinalBaton »

I get great results capturing from my deck (Sony SVO-1610) via composite and then deinterlacing and upscaling in post. as I said previously
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NJRoadfan
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by NJRoadfan »

Watching the MLIG review of the 5X it just dawned on me that "Triple Buffer" mode works exactly like a full frame/infinite window TBC. They even confirmed it with VHS recording samples in the review. Having that function for VCR capture would be huge considering all the good external TBCs are now out of production.
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Odolwa
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Odolwa »

Not to change the subject, but something else that's troubling for me is capturing Hi-8 tapes. At the moment, I still have my family's Sony video camera from 1997 and all it has is monaural Yellow/White outputs. I went on ebay last year, and purchased a *lemon* Cannon Hi-8 video camera with S-Video output. I knew it didn't work when I bought it, but I thought I could get someone to repair it for me, but all of the camera repair centers I talked to said those particular Canon Hi-8 cameras were faulty to begin with and unrepairable. That's $55 down the crapper. Does anyone know of a Hi-8 S-Video outputting camera that doesn't suck?
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Odolwa
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Odolwa »

Guspaz wrote:It can handle input at 240p, 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i. It can output at 240p (downscaling), 480p, 720p, 768p, 1080p, 1200p, and 1440p.

240p can be multiplied by up to 6x. 480i/480p can be multiplied by up to 3x. 720p and 1080i input can only be passthrough, and are chroma limited. 480i can be deinterlaced with the full suite (including motion adaptive), but 1080i can only be bob deinterlaced.

You can get a list of the supported features on the website: https://www.retrotink.com/product-page/5x-pro

You can also get more details in the user manual: https://36c4ce24-ea9e-4fcf-85dd-62475fa ... 8707a4.pdf
So does the 5X use 4:4:4 color sampling, because EposVox says that it just does 4:2:2 in his new video?

https://youtu.be/bP9cXiWOGt4?t=1029
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Guspaz
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Guspaz »

It supersamples chroma on the input (takes more colour samples than luminance samples, so better than 4:4:4) for lower resolutions, does the scaling, and then processes in 4:2:2 at the output resolution. But because the subsampling happens after scaling, there isn't any loss in colour detail, so you get what is for most purposes going to look like a 4:4:4 output.

There was a bug in the launch firmware that caused some subtle misalignments on the chroma channel, which has been fixed in the upcoming firmware update.
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Fudoh
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Fudoh »

It supersamples chroma on the input (takes more colour samples than luminance samples, so better than 4:4:4) for lower resolutions
that's debatable :mrgreen: What the 5X does looks very nice, but the 4:2:2 path - as good as it's masked - keeps you from getting emulation-like integer scaled pixels on the horizontal.

Completely irrelevant for actual vcr capture of course.
mikechi2
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by mikechi2 »

Yes it should be clarified that it is "better" than a generic 4:4:4 ADC running at standard sampling modes but of course a super/optimal sampled 4:4:4 will be better than a super/optimal sampled 4:2:2.

And honestly, for VCR you might as well as start with the $10 AV2HDMI and see where that takes you before moving to more esoteric solutions due to the poor inherent quality of VHS tapes.
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orange808
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by orange808 »

mikechi2 wrote:Yes it should be clarified that it is "better" than a generic 4:4:4 ADC running at standard sampling modes but of course a super/optimal sampled 4:4:4 will be better than a super/optimal sampled 4:2:2.

And honestly, for VCR you might as well as start with the $10 AV2HDMI and see where that takes you before moving to more esoteric solutions due to the poor inherent quality of VHS tapes.
I wouldn't do that. Grab a Silicon Optix Image Anyplace, plug it in, and you'll get pretty good results. :-) They're only $150usd and they were actually built to handle this VCR use case. It wouldn't be the absolute best possible thing ever, but it's pretty darn good.

I know OP won't take the advice to heart, but someone else that stumbles around here might.
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mikechi2
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by mikechi2 »

orange808 wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:Yes it should be clarified that it is "better" than a generic 4:4:4 ADC running at standard sampling modes but of course a super/optimal sampled 4:4:4 will be better than a super/optimal sampled 4:2:2.

And honestly, for VCR you might as well as start with the $10 AV2HDMI and see where that takes you before moving to more esoteric solutions due to the poor inherent quality of VHS tapes.
I wouldn't do that. Grab a Silicon Optix Image Anyplace, plug it in, and you'll get pretty good results. :-) They're only $150usd and they were actually built to handle this VCR use case. It wouldn't be the absolute best possible thing ever, but it's pretty darn good.

I know OP won't take the advice to heart, but someone else that stumbles around here might.
Oh that's cool, and quite reasonable for the price! Yeah I get what you're saying -- tbh, most of this has veered into the wrong tool for the job. VCRs have their own quirks and there are (were?) tools that were built specifically for this purpose. Video game scalers ain't it (at least for now).
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Odolwa
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Odolwa »

Fudoh wrote:
It supersamples chroma on the input (takes more colour samples than luminance samples, so better than 4:4:4) for lower resolutions
that's debatable :mrgreen: What the 5X does looks very nice, but the 4:2:2 path - as good as it's masked - keeps you from getting emulation-like integer scaled pixels on the horizontal.

Completely irrelevant for actual vcr capture of course.
I plan to use it for more than just S-Video VHS capture, but if it doesn't do 4:4:4 than I'll just wait for the OSSC Pro and wait for the S-Video adapter to come out for that thing too.
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Odolwa
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Odolwa »

orange808 wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:Yes it should be clarified that it is "better" than a generic 4:4:4 ADC running at standard sampling modes but of course a super/optimal sampled 4:4:4 will be better than a super/optimal sampled 4:2:2.

And honestly, for VCR you might as well as start with the $10 AV2HDMI and see where that takes you before moving to more esoteric solutions due to the poor inherent quality of VHS tapes.
I wouldn't do that. Grab a Silicon Optix Image Anyplace, plug it in, and you'll get pretty good results. :-) They're only $150usd and they were actually built to handle this VCR use case. It wouldn't be the absolute best possible thing ever, but it's pretty darn good.

I know OP won't take the advice to heart, but someone else that stumbles around here might.
I'm looking at that device right now, but it's huge, and I don't know how you get sound into it. It doesn't use RCA audio jacks.
Last edited by Odolwa on Fri May 21, 2021 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fudoh
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Fudoh »

The SOIA is video-only. You have to route audio around it.

You should only worry about 4:4:4 (or it's lack of) if you want to use optimized sampling along with integer scaling all the way. Once you deviate from that course, either by letting your display do additional scaling, by doing aspect ratio control beyond horizontal (or vertical) integer, it doesn't really matter anymore. And if you start to encode into a lossy codec with 4:2:0, then it doesn't matter anyway.

I think I've seen every single 5X review on Youtube by now and it's interesting to see how ESPECIALLY the content creators that want the 5X for capturing don't care at all for the lack of full 4:4:4. And they're right of course, because in the end it really doesn't matter for their workflow.

I am hands down the biggest fan of 4:4:4, but for some people it just makes no sense to demand it.
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Odolwa
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Odolwa »

Fudoh wrote:The SOIA is video-only. You have to route audio around it.

You should only worry about 4:4:4 (or it's lack of) if you want to use optimized sampling along with integer scaling all the way. Once you deviate from that course, either by letting your display do additional scaling, by doing aspect ratio control beyond horizontal (or vertical) integer, it doesn't really matter anymore. And if you start to encode into a lossy codec with 4:2:0, then it doesn't matter anyway.

I think I've seen every single 5X review on Youtube by now and it's interesting to see how ESPECIALLY the content creators that want the 5X for capturing don't care at all for the lack of full 4:4:4. And they're right of course, because in the end it really doesn't matter for their workflow.

I am hands down the biggest fan of 4:4:4, but for some people it just makes no sense to demand it.
It's pretty expensive for a device that doesn't do 4:4:4. How come the manual pdf says it does, but Eposvox says it doesn't?
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Fudoh
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Fudoh »

I think EV claimed that the actual output was 4:2:2 only, which is wrong. The output is RGB 4:4:4, only part of the internal processing is in 4:2:2 - just like on the Framemeister and essentially most other processors that do processing in YUV colorspace.
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Odolwa
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Odolwa »

What about Hi-8 tapes? Anybody have a good option to capture those? Should I try and locate a camera from way back that has S-Video?
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Odolwa
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Odolwa »

Does anyone know how to capture Hi-8 footage? Any cameras or Hi-8 players that output S-Video and Stereo Audio that you guys could recommend for me, please? I will be using the Retrotink5X.
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by energizerfellow‌ »

Odolwa wrote:Does anyone know how to capture Hi-8 footage? Any cameras or Hi-8 players that output S-Video and Stereo Audio that you guys could recommend for me, please? I will be using the Retrotink5X.
Pretty sure that was covered over in your other thread:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=68622

Models you want for capture are covered there. Also keep in mind that no consumer video format ever had a native resolution above 4:2:2, so that's all you need.
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by KPackratt2k »

Does anyone have any recommendations for a good S-Video to HDMI upscaler that works properly with S-VHS VCRs for anyone who is used to Technology Connections' method of using an HDMI capture device? A couple years ago, I've tried a cheap upscaler that I found on eBay, but the S-Video quality that it outputted from my VCR (Mitsubishi HS-U795) was extremely smeary, it looked like the smearing effect of certain 3-chip SNES consoles RGB output multiplied by 100.

Failing that, what are your recommendations for a good capture device with an S-Video input along with capturing software that preserves interlacing? I've tried a cheap EZCap clone from TOTMC, but its drivers kept crashing left and right. The software I used with it (Corel VideoStudio - I can't remember the exact version) would deinterlace its captures to 30p using the blend algorithm which is not what I wanted. I also had a Raygo capture device prior to it, but its drivers were even worse than the TOTMC's drivers, in terms of stability. I would also like for it to support both macOS and Windows, since I tend to cycle back and forth between the two platforms.
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Endgame22
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Endgame22 »

Resurrecting thread hopefully that's ok.

I have a DVDO Vp30 with ABT102 card. I want to capture home movies from VHS. Different sources online say it's best to capture 480i raw output and then deinterlace on pc in software.
However, if Vp30 has TBC and VCR mode, as well as 3:2 pudown (if needed, I'm assuming most of my NTSC tapes will be fine at 29.97 fps) then can't I deinterlace and convert to 1080p before going to capture card instead? Would quality suffer? I can't output 480i on Vp30, all progressive except 1080i.

Also, my current capture card is the older Elgato Game Capture HD from 2012 I think. Compression is h.264 but in obs I can use avi container for lossless file to my understanding. Would this card be fine? Trying to get best quality I can without doing crazy archival routes

Thanks!
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