OSSC Pro

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PearlJammzz
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by PearlJammzz »

ZellSF wrote:
TrantaLocked_ wrote:I don't think it's make or break but if it's possible to do, I'd bet at the very least content creators who make money on their content would be willing to pay $500-$600 for that device.
I don't see what content creators would want 4K for.

The difference between 1080p and 4K for 240p content is pretty small as is, with content creators you're also throwing video compression into that reducing the difference even more.

That's assuming the worst case scenario that this content creator doesn't have a capture setup that accepts 1440p, and doesn't have a setup that allows whatever scaling he wants to be done on the capture side.

If you want people to spend money on irrelevant things, go after bored people looking for entertainment, not people doing their jobs. The latter group will buy expensive stuff, sure, but not uncritically.
The idea in 4k support, for me at least, is for advanced filter/scanline options. At 4k you can almost emulate individual phosphors. On PC with a software emulator you can get it to look pretty damn close to CRT on an OLED. BFI helps but makes everything way too dark (currently) to be of much use. It's fun to test with though.

4k is nice too cause similar to 1440p everything multiplies evenly into it. If you're just going for pixel perfect, no scanlines then I don't think there would much of any difference on most displays between 1080p/1440p and 4k.
fernan1234
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

PearlJammzz wrote:The idea in 4k support, for me at least, is for advanced filter/scanline options. At 4k you can almost emulate individual phosphors. On PC with a software emulator you can get it to look pretty damn close to CRT on an OLED. BFI helps but makes everything way too dark (currently) to be of much use. It's fun to test with though.
4K is still not enough for very detail emulation of the appearance of individual phosphors, let alone video line drawing. Maybe at most a somewhat rough reproduction of a low TVL/resolution CRT. Even just jumping to a 5K screen opens up a lot of room for more detail (something like a ~700 TVL aperture grill pattern becomes more doable). 8K will be very good for this kind of endeavor. Also something like BFI, not necessarily a full black frame, but some element periodically scanning across the picture (ideally at 60Hz like on a CRT) to clean up our vision from persistence blur, is also absolutely necessary for satisfactory CRT emulation.

This is getting a bit off-topic, but it is something that may not be far from the scope of a future OSSC-type video processor. It's also good to be reminded by Blacksheep that the OSSC software is future-proof'd to some extent in being prepared for portability into a 4K version of the hardware whenever it becomes feasible in cost.
ZellSF
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by ZellSF »

PearlJammzz wrote:The idea in 4k support, for me at least, is for advanced filter/scanline options. At 4k you can almost emulate individual phosphors. On PC with a software emulator you can get it to look pretty damn close to CRT on an OLED. BFI helps but makes everything way too dark (currently) to be of much use. It's fun to test with though.

4k is nice too cause similar to 1440p everything multiplies evenly into it. If you're just going for pixel perfect, no scanlines then I don't think there would much of any difference on most displays between 1080p/1440p and 4k.
Not sure why you're quoting me. I want 4K, I was just making an argument it wasn't relevant for content creators. You really don't want to see what video compression does to CRT filters.
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TrantaLocked_
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by TrantaLocked_ »

All of you are completely missing the point. If a content creator, who literally makes money off of streaming or uploading video game content, had the choice between a standard version or paying $200-$300 more for a version that had native 4K upscaling, s/he would choose the 4K version. They are making an investment in their setup that is literally their entire business. Once again as I have said repeatedly, this is not about how current setups are bad or in necessary need of replacing. It is about a 4K version being an easy pick when given a choice between the two options, if priced within reason. People are saying there are no "practical reasons" yet most of the reasons are reasons however you want to call them practical or something else. Streamlining a setup is a practical reason. Avoiding other minor quality or input lag issues in an already existing setup is a practical reason. Spending extra money when you're already spending a few hundred dollars on something that is supposed to be your "do it all device," you're already in the mindset of getting a device that you want to have total control on the source conversion process.

So while all of you continue to excuse the entire idea, I will continue to stand by actual human psychology. I have literally heard GIANT streamers say on camera that they want to upgrade their graphics card because it's either cool or they want to be the best or they want the 5% extra frame rate. I have seen Linus Tech Tips be forced to change the GPU in their pyramid custom PC build for a client who changed last minute because the 3090 just came out and they wanted that instead because it was slightly better. Even though the terms were already settled on. If someone has a reason to buy an OSSC Pro because its involved in their literal job, and they work in 4K, they will most likely pick the 4K version.
juji82
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by juji82 »

TrantaLocked_ wrote:All of you are completely missing the point. If a content creator, who literally makes money off of streaming or uploading video game content, had the choice between a standard version or paying $200-$300 more for a version that had native 4K upscaling, s/he would choose the 4K version.
you missed about one 0 to that amount.
ZellSF
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by ZellSF »

TrantaLocked_ wrote:Streamlining a setup is a practical reason.
Yet you've given no concrete examples of how 4K output would do that. Just vague hypotheticals. Can you describe exactly your setup, and how 4K output would streamline it?
TrantaLocked_ wrote:Avoiding other minor quality or input lag issues in an already existing setup is a practical reason.
Not really, no. The difference will most likely be imperceptible. Do you have any experience with upscaling lag, or quality issues when upscaling from 240p to 1440p, or are you just guessing this will be a problem without 4K?
TrantaLocked_ wrote: I have literally heard GIANT streamers say on camera that they want to upgrade their graphics card because it's either cool or they want to be the best or they want the 5% extra frame rate.
Obviously, they want to, but because they're enthusiasts, not because they're content producers and it's relevant to their jobs. There's no point marketing to them, or thinking they're a bigger marketing group. They're a sub-group of the enthusiast group.
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TrantaLocked_
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by TrantaLocked_ »

ZellSF wrote:
TrantaLocked_ wrote:Streamlining a setup is a practical reason.
Yet you've given no concrete examples of how 4K output would do that. Just vague hypotheticals. Can you describe exactly your setup, and how 4K output would streamline it?
TrantaLocked_ wrote:Avoiding other minor quality or input lag issues in an already existing setup is a practical reason.
Not really, no. The difference will most likely be imperceptible. Do you have any experience with upscaling lag, or quality issues when upscaling from 240p to 1440p, or are you just guessing this will be a problem without 4K?
TrantaLocked_ wrote: I have literally heard GIANT streamers say on camera that they want to upgrade their graphics card because it's either cool or they want to be the best or they want the 5% extra frame rate.
Obviously, they want to, but because they're enthusiasts, not because they're content producers and it's relevant to their jobs. There's no point marketing to them, or thinking they're a bigger marketing group. They're a sub-group of the enthusiast group.
My TV and monitor add at least a few MS lag depending on the resolution being fed, at worst up to 20ms. But it will depend on each person's display. I don't doubt the ability for display manufacturers to cheap out in ways they think the user won't notice. There are still expensive laptops being made with sub 100% sRGB because manufacturers think they can get away with it and they do. Also, not everyone is going to check their monitor's input lag. Most will just want the peace of mind knowing that everything will be 100% best case scenario going directly to their monitor in the source resolution. Upscaling twice at different points will not be as good as doing all in one place, but I don't have data to back that up. Not to mention your monitor usually only has one upscaling method, usually nearest neighbor, and sometimes you want the the complete upscale to be something else like bilinear or what have you. The OSSC Pro without a doubt will offer the highest quality and lowest lag bilinear, bicubic, etc methods on the market, so in just that respect if you're replacing something like an HD-HD 4K you're already getting an input lag edge.

It also streamlines the process because it removes the need to mess with the picture in anyway on the computer side. Whether that be the capture card or other software, you don't need to mess with any settings if you have it perfect already coming in. Yes it's a minor thing but it's still a reason.

That was an example of human psychology. I'm saying that people want things for reasons that on paper may appear to matter less than what they feel themselves. I especially think people like journalists or MVG who do documentary style content, and events like GDQ, would love the 4K version because it would be the more "professional" option. The point was that people who make money on their content would be more likely to spend that extra money in addition to all of the wealthy gaming enthusiasts who just play the games and want the most control and quality in their setup.
Last edited by TrantaLocked_ on Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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6t8k
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by 6t8k »

TrantaLocked_ wrote:So while all of you continue to excuse the entire idea, I will continue to stand by actual human psychology. I have literally heard GIANT streamers say on camera that they want to upgrade their graphics card because it's either cool or they want to be the best or they want the 5% extra frame rate. I have seen Linus Tech Tips be forced to change the GPU in their pyramid custom PC build for a client who changed last minute because the 3090 just came out and they wanted that instead because it was slightly better. Even though the terms were already settled on.
Human psychology has its quirks. I like it that most here seem to be a bit more rational than that. What's more, just being popular does not automatically make your desires more important.

The OSSC Pro is a hobby project, I'm thankful to marqs that he does it. I don't really understand your "crusade" for 4K here - if a 4K capable model eventually emerges, then great. :) If it doesn't, then it doesn't.
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TrantaLocked_
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by TrantaLocked_ »

6t8k wrote:
TrantaLocked_ wrote:So while all of you continue to excuse the entire idea, I will continue to stand by actual human psychology. I have literally heard GIANT streamers say on camera that they want to upgrade their graphics card because it's either cool or they want to be the best or they want the 5% extra frame rate. I have seen Linus Tech Tips be forced to change the GPU in their pyramid custom PC build for a client who changed last minute because the 3090 just came out and they wanted that instead because it was slightly better. Even though the terms were already settled on.
Human psychology has its quirks. I like it that most here seem to be a bit more rational than that. What's more, just being popular does not automatically make your desires more important.

As already explained, the OSSC Pro is a hobby project, I'm thankful to marqs that he does it. I don't really understand your "crusade" for 4K here - if a 4K capable model eventually emerges, then great. :) If it doesn't, then it doesn't.
The actual reason I even made my original comment was to take the focus away from the other heated argument taking place, then it turned into me being accused of spreading FUD, so now I will defend every point I make until the end.
ZellSF
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by ZellSF »

Seems to be going in circles, but I'll just say you haven't convinced me that 4K is more relevant for content creators than anyone else. Can't speak for everyone else, of course. The possibility seems to be quite a few years into the future anyway.

The only relevant premium version that seems to be on the table is better deinterlacing, which I'm interested in and would probably pay maybe up to 250$ extra for? I don't think estimating the market for that by message board responses is a good idea though.
Blacksheep
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Blacksheep »

TrantaLocked_ wrote:The actual reason I even made my original comment was to take the focus away from the other heated argument taking place
Yeah right
TrantaLocked_ wrote:then it turned into me being accused of spreading FUD, so now I will defend every point I make until the end.
If you aspire to save face then it would be wiser to stop riding a dead horse. Sunk cost fallacy and all. You would also end a heated argument, something you seem to value as well, reaching two goals at once. With an "OSSC Pro 4K" out of reach at least for the next few years, the whole discussion is also slightly off-topic.
ZellSF wrote:1440p yet which is 1080p*1.33. 4K is 1080p*2.
No, 2560*1440 (most common for 1440p) is 1920*1080*1.77.. and 3840*2160 (4K UHD) is 1920*1080*4.
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TrantaLocked_
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by TrantaLocked_ »

If you aspire to save face then it would be wiser to stop riding a dead horse. Sunk cost fallacy and all. You would also end a heated argument, something you seem to value as well, reaching two goals at once. With an "OSSC Pro 4K" out of reach at least for the next few years, the whole discussion is also slightly off-topic.
All of that is clearly showing a lack of reading and understanding the previous responses. And you mock me about my "value" of ending a heated argument yet your intention is clearly to fan flames further with a combination of your lack of reading comprehension, ignorance, projection and conceited assumptions.
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XSync-1
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by XSync-1 »

@Marqs Why do you insist on having the OSSC Pro made in China? Why can't you use any other country to make the OSSC Pro? I would pay extra for a device that isn't made in China, and I'm sure many others on this site would as well. We all know what China's doing. Why do your customers have to contribute to the modern-day slave trade? At least Micomsoft used Taiwan to assemble their devices.
fernan1234
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

^Don't drink the Kool-Aid, kids.
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marqs
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by marqs »

XSync-1 wrote:@Marqs Why do you insist on having the OSSC Pro made in China? Why can't you use any other country to make the OSSC Pro? I would pay extra for a device that isn't made in China, and I'm sure many others on this site would as well. We all know what China's doing. Why do your customers have to contribute to the modern-day slave trade? At least Micomsoft used Taiwan to assemble their devices.
Where do you base your information on? We're actually considering an option of using both an EU and China manufacturer - at least initially - to balance risk and cost. It's not all sunshine with Western manufacturers either. Politics aside, I've seen a fair share of issues with them too, and the price difference (e.g. 3x for prototype PCB) is hard to justify unless the end result is significantly better.
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vol.2
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by vol.2 »

All of the PCB assembly services I've used through work (and we get boards made multiple times a year) send boards to China for any hand work. Many of the components are made in China. It's practically impossible to avoid China in the electronics industry at this point.
fernan1234
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

vol.2 wrote:All of the PCB assembly services I've used through work (and we get boards made multiple times a year) send boards to China for any hand work. Many of the components are made in China. It's practically impossible to avoid China in the electronics industry at this point.
B-but Chinaman bad!

This is actually just like the demonization of Japan and anything Japanese in the 1970s. And it has happened countless times before, whenever the political and economic interests of the West/self feel threatened by an "oriental" other.

But yeah focusing on the practical matters only, even if you believe all of this stuff you're SOL.
Ryoandr
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Ryoandr »

Overreliance on china for everything is a real problem, but it's also faaaaaaarr beyond the scope of hobby projects like OSSC.
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Lawfer
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Lawfer »

Talking about China. anyone remember Chris Moon, the creator of the DreamPSU and the SaturnPSU and how China screwed him over completely?

https://web.archive.org/web/20190403064 ... tore/blog/

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/satu ... r-supply#/

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/drea ... ol-again#/

Unfortunately the waybackmachine doesn't have the newer blog updates saved and the retropsu website is no more, but I remember that things got much worse for him in newer blog posts, basically China just took the money and never sent anything.
Last edited by Lawfer on Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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XSync-1
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by XSync-1 »

fernan1234 wrote:^Don't drink the Kool-Aid, kids.
Truth scares you.
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XSync-1
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by XSync-1 »

fernan1234 wrote:
vol.2 wrote:All of the PCB assembly services I've used through work (and we get boards made multiple times a year) send boards to China for any hand work. Many of the components are made in China. It's practically impossible to avoid China in the electronics industry at this point.
B-but Chinaman bad!

This is actually just like the demonization of Japan and anything Japanese in the 1970s. And it has happened countless times before, whenever the political and economic interests of the West/self feel threatened by an "oriental" other.

But yeah focusing on the practical matters only, even if you believe all of this stuff you're SOL.
Everyone knows about the Uighur concentration camps in xinjiang (Turkestan). Quit trying to play the race card, and you're making 100% false comparisons with WWII imperial Japan and modern day communist china. If a threat to western economic interests is enough motivation for people to quit dealing with the repressive and genocidal Covidinese government, then that's just fine with me. I'll pay Marqs extra any day of the week for "Made in " almost any country other than china. He could use Taiwan like Micomsoft did. I'm sure others on here would pay a little more for that as well. I'm not alone.
Last edited by XSync-1 on Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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XSync-1
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by XSync-1 »

vol.2 wrote:All of the PCB assembly services I've used through work (and we get boards made multiple times a year) send boards to China for any hand work. Many of the components are made in China. It's practically impossible to avoid China in the electronics industry at this point.
That is awful to hear. Let's start now with the OSSC Pro.
SavagePencil
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by SavagePencil »

XSync-1 wrote:Covidinese
get out
ZellSF
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by ZellSF »

XSync-1 wrote:That is awful to hear. Let's start now with the OSSC Pro.
"Let us start"?

What's your contribution to this endeavor going to be?
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XSync-1
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by XSync-1 »

ZellSF wrote:
XSync-1 wrote:That is awful to hear. Let's start now with the OSSC Pro.
"Let us start"?

What's your contribution to this endeavor going to be?
I'll pay extra for a device not made in china. What's yours going to be?
ZellSF
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by ZellSF »

That really isn't contributing anything.
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XSync-1
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by XSync-1 »

ZellSF wrote:That really isn't contributing anything.
What? It's called boycotting. It has a major impact when done on a large enough scale. You know very little, if you don't think boycotting contributes anything.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by maxtherabbit »

XSync-1 wrote:
ZellSF wrote:That really isn't contributing anything.
What? It's called boycotting. It has a major impact when done on a large enough scale. You know very little, if you don't think boycotting contributes anything.
Ima keep it real with you chief. I always prioritize self interest above trying to change the world. Most rational men do
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maxtherabbit
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by maxtherabbit »

SavagePencil wrote:
XSync-1 wrote:Covidinese
get out
He's got a point. It is extremely likely the virus escaped from the wuhan lab and they are flexing their global influence to obfuscate this fact
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XSync-1
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by XSync-1 »

maxtherabbit wrote:
XSync-1 wrote:
ZellSF wrote:That really isn't contributing anything.
What? It's called boycotting. It has a major impact when done on a large enough scale. You know very little, if you don't think boycotting contributes anything.
Ima keep it real with you chief. I always prioritize self interest above trying to change the world. Most rational men do
Fine, but I and I'm sure many others on here would rather Marqs have this device made in a country that isn't china. I would pay a more to avoid helping their regime, and plus, their work has never been that good anyway. Since when were they ever known for making quality products?
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