vol.2 wrote:
The point of that comment I made was that they knew those RPG tropes well enough to factor the Fantasy theme into what an RPG is. My main, overall point is that "Numbers Go Up," isn't an adequate description for an RPG.
Of course. I just wanted to lay down that Japan had a different initial point of mainstream departure for what an rpg was in the popular consciousness than the West did.
No doubt. This whole argument is about whether or not "Numbers Go Up" can be used as the only the criteria to describe a game as an RPG.
Oh. I wouldn't make that argument at all. Numerical sustained progression is the mechanical core - that's why Dragon Quest is an rpg but it makes more sense to place Zelda games outside of Adventure of Link in a different category. But it's clear that unless a game is specifically aiming for a retro vibe, some sort of narrative progression is part & parcel of the rpg as well. The numbers seem to be the key point of distinction though - World End Syndrome involves much more role playing and narrative text than any Final Fantasy I can think of, but nobody places it in the rpg category.
Also, one last thing. The map pictures you posted of Hydlide. Let's not forget that Ultima exists here. I see what you're trying to do with showing some progression, but both of those games could just have easily been looking at Ultima and making tweaks.
Oh, for sure that was in the background. Ultima and Wizardry both had followings throughout the 80s in Japan - Ultima III & IV both had Japanese developed Famicom versions. Wizardry I-III as well. In fact Wizardry never died off in Japan and effectively became a Japanese franchise in the 2000s, as it saw constant releases from Gameboy to Super Famicom, Saturn/PSX & mobile up through to the PS3 & Vita:
The issue at hand for our discussion here is that they weren't very available in the period we're talking about. Ultima was on Apple II computers, which as mentioned previously weren't widely adopted in Japan at the consumer level. The market there was dominated by NEC's PC88/98 series, with the MSX format off to the side. Ultima II & III hit the PC-88 at the end of 1985. The first game didn't show up there until the end of 1988. The series didn't make it to the MSX, only showing up on the MSX2, a mid-80s machine.
The Apple II Ultimas are games about stick figures moving about a non-animated world, with what's happening communicated through truncated text window messages:
Conversely, by the time we see Ultimas showing up on Famicom, the Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy influence is obvious:
So it's clear what the standards for rpg presentation became based on there.
But the most important thing in the case of Hydlide is that we don't actually have to wonder. Hydlide's Creator, Naito Tokohiro, was interviewed in John Szczepaniak's
Untold History of Japanese Games. This is the relevant quote, page 82 in my version:
Creators from this period are pretty open about what a big deal Druaga was, and in turn Hydlide which was the first really big rpg hit in Japan alongside Black Onyx and...
Licorice wrote:BTW missing in your analysis of the early history is Dragon Slayer!
Yep. First DraSle hit a couple of months before Hydlide, those are effectively the first two Japanese arpgs. I mentioned Falcom previously & name dropped Ys, but Dragon Slayer is a whole thing. Truth is I haven't been able get into those games, I have both volumes of the Saturn Falcom Classics Collection, but...eesh. Same with Sorcerian, another Falcom title that was a big deal in Japan but nowhere else.