Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
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trap15
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by trap15 »

Oh wow, that's surprising. And very very strange. Now I'm pretty curious about this business.
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jepjepjep
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by jepjepjep »

I think the region info for FixEight is like this also, just saved as a string in the eeprom that can't be overwritten from the test menu.
ForeverSublime
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by ForeverSublime »

Here are the default dips. The hardest version is Asia region. You start with 2 health and the damage scale is low (0). Japan also has scale damage set low, and language (1) is Japanese. Everything else for all regions is zero. Asia = we want your money. USA/Europe = You suck at video games.

USA:

R=Bank &1 &2 &3 &4 &5 &6 &7 &8 R=Switch0 &1 &1 &0 &0 &0 &0 &0 &1 R=Switch1 &0&0&0&0&0&0&0&0 R=Switch2 &0&0&0&0&0&0&0&0


Europe:

R=Bank &1 &2 &3 &4 &5 &6 &7 &8 R=Switch0 &1 &1 &0 &0 &0 &0 &0 &1 R=Switch1 &0&0&0&0&0&0&0&0 R=Switch2 &0&0&0&0&0&0&0&0


Japan:

R=Bank &1 &2 &3 &4 &5 &6 &7 &8 R=Switch0 &0 &1 &0 &0 &0 &0 &0 &0 R=Switch1 &0&0&0&0&0&0&0&0 R=Switch2 &0&0&0&0&0&0&0&0


Asia:

R=Bank &1 &2 &3 &4 &5 &6 &7 &8 R=Switch0 &0 &1 &0 &0 &1 &1 &0 &1 R=Switch1 &0&0&0&0&0&0&0&0 R=Switch2 &0&0&0&0&0&0&0&0
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jepjepjep
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by jepjepjep »

Thanks for the default dip settings ForeverSublime.
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Captain
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by Captain »

The Osman boss music is now forever stuck in my head.

If anyone can rip it or has a file of it, since I could not find any AT ALL, i'd be greatful.
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xy2_
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by xy2_ »

Hello! I recently made a full tool-assisted speedrun of Osman. You can find it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EumJoe6mAXk

Movie file (download on the right)
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by ForeverSublime »

Neat, xy2_! Fun project. How do you determine to make your bot more efficient? I know nothing about TAS.

@trap15: Oh, hi! Funny how many people I've had the pleasure to meet in person while only recognizing their names in this thread some time later. You're definitely on team good-guys in real life, and it shows in your posts here.
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xy2_
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by xy2_ »

ForeverSublime wrote:Neat, xy2_! Fun project. How do you determine to make your bot more efficient? I know nothing about TAS.

@trap15: Oh, hi! Funny how many people I've had the pleasure to meet in person while only recognizing their names in this thread some time later. You're definitely on team good-guys in real life, and it shows in your posts here.
TASing isn't done with bots (although we can use some for optimising basic stuff): all input is done by hand. Think of it as savestate practice up to a frame level, and with other tools such as slowing and pausing the game down at any time, and being able to search for and track relevant memory adresses for optimisation.

Speaking of optimisation, here's a full score TAS of Osman I finished yesterday:

http://tasvideos.org/5115S.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9OIm4kvfxs

This is incredibly optimised (at best I would figure any improvements to not go abouve 1000 extra points of this.) Using death you can of course get more, but it makes the movie incredibly boring as you just repeat the part that's worth the most point over and over abusing timeouts.
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xy2_
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by xy2_ »

And an higher quality video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIR5uyyO9Y8
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Sir Ilpalazzo
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

I've been playing this lately and I'm not really sure I get it. The stylish aesthetics are undeniably appealing, and there are a lot of neat setpieces, but the game design feels really messy in ways that even Strider doesn't. The bosses feel a little incoherent and imbalanced - right from stage 2 you have Herio, whose random movement can easily get out of control, and if he decides to spend enough time floating above the arena, you often get put in situation where you won't be able to squeeze through his fire rain due to your large hitbox - and once you start taking hits, your offensive capability drops to zero (which comes up a lot throughout the game, I like that boss fights have extra powerups in them to mitigate this, but attack telegraphs in general don't feel good enough for the powerdown-on-damage system to be as punishing as it is, because you really are helpless once you lose your afterimages).

Later levels feature the stage 3 encounter with Cannons (his disassembling mech doesn't seem to be consistently dodgeable due to the way the air tunnel around the room sucks your jump in), Willt, whose homing lightspeed disk projectile has virtually no telegraph and comes out under unclear conditions (does he do it only when vaguely horizontally level with you? who knows) and the machine gun enemies who start showing up in stages 4 and 5, who fill the screen with machine gun bullets not even a second after they materialize from the screen's edge. I'm not sure about this game. Aesthetics aside, there's definitely some appreciable stuff - its implementation of afterimages is a cool one for an action sidescroller and it feels great when the game actually allows you to use them, and there are some good, well-designed fights like Sandora and Tianon - but unless there's something I'm missing about most of the later boss fights or the untelegraphed enemy attacks (and I hope there is, there's enough appealing about the game that I'd prefer to think more highly of it), the game feels like it's very sloppy on a mechanical level.
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by ForeverSublime »

Nice write-up. Even with more familiar/advanced play, some of that sloppiness is always apparent - Not saying it's a good or bad thing, but you could certainly point to other games where sloppiness works. To Osman's credit, certainly, is that the sloppiness is repeatable but malleable. Since some of it can be manipulated (loading of enemies, spawn positions, fire times in some cases, etc), you feel as if there's more structure - structure you create. There becomes more than one solution to each piece of a level. We tend to play how we like to play, so those things may not become apparent unless you make a grave mistake or just goof around.

Regarding the 3 main bosses: When you become better at the game you dispatch bosses quickly - to the point they may not get an attack off by the time you destroy them. That's a nice way of saying there's one particular abusive strategy. Then again, they can also be manipulated in their "spawn points". You may have discovered this by now - it happens relatively early you have a small a-ha moment and don't meet Cannons at the gravity well - but it is possible to legitimately pick and poke at them by rolling in and out timely.

But, as you said, until then you have to deal with the power-downs whenever you're hit. It's not quite as bad as an R-Type debuff, but at first it can feel punishing. You have at least two moves that are still helpful, even at lowest strength. My memory is fuzzy on exactly how much extra damage is done, but these two moves are helpful; 1) When jumping, attack 3x and hold down attack on third hit. You do extra damage each third hit (notice the different animation). 2) Combo attack, alternate high and low punches. Each hit does more damage, with strong last hit. This move is shown in the tuition instruction, but you can combo into the second hit from a couple different actions besides a standard punch.

Since the aforementioned moves are done by pressing attack multiple times, yes, they're even more punishing as you power up since your images hit as well. Considering the length of the game, Osman does a good job of not giving too much of a "god mode" when you're fully powered. You are not given an all powerful weapon, but you earn the right to be that weapon - like a title to maintain. When you are powered up and (emphasis on "and") you've mastered the moves, you tend to be powered up more often than not. In black mode, you get 20 punches/kicks before powering back down to white. So, figuring how to clear enemies between each power up with only 20 punches/kicks becomes part of the puzzle, if you choose. It's a nice mechanism, and compliments with how the images are used, such as in making sure each of your attacks connect on a stronger enemy and not leaving a kick facing the wrong direction, but also in attacking while the images are spread out, or as they return. The game could use a couple more areas to solidify that, more than just a feeling of awesomeness. Regardless of the 20-hit mechanism, there's a little added beauty in demonstrated efficiency.

It's not enough to make everyone like this over Strider, or like the game at all, but as you said there's still something to appreciate. It was nice to read your early impressions and remember some of my own.

Remember, you can aim throws a bit, not just "forward".
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Sir Ilpalazzo
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

ForeverSublime wrote:Nice write-up. Even with more familiar/advanced play, some of that sloppiness is always apparent - Not saying it's a good or bad thing, but you could certainly point to other games where sloppiness works. To Osman's credit, certainly, is that the sloppiness is repeatable but malleable. Since some of it can be manipulated (loading of enemies, spawn positions, fire times in some cases, etc), you feel as if there's more structure - structure you create. There becomes more than one solution to each piece of a level. We tend to play how we like to play, so those things may not become apparent unless you make a grave mistake or just goof around.

Regarding the 3 main bosses: When you become better at the game you dispatch bosses quickly - to the point they may not get an attack off by the time you destroy them. That's a nice way of saying there's one particular abusive strategy. Then again, they can also be manipulated in their "spawn points". You may have discovered this by now - it happens relatively early you have a small a-ha moment and don't meet Cannons at the gravity well - but it is possible to legitimately pick and poke at them by rolling in and out timely.

But, as you said, until then you have to deal with the power-downs whenever you're hit. It's not quite as bad as an R-Type debuff, but at first it can feel punishing. You have at least two moves that are still helpful, even at lowest strength. My memory is fuzzy on exactly how much extra damage is done, but these two moves are helpful; 1) When jumping, attack 3x and hold down attack on third hit. You do extra damage each third hit (notice the different animation). 2) Combo attack, alternate high and low punches. Each hit does more damage, with strong last hit. This move is shown in the tuition instruction, but you can combo into the second hit from a couple different actions besides a standard punch.

Since the aforementioned moves are done by pressing attack multiple times, yes, they're even more punishing as you power up since your images hit as well. Considering the length of the game, Osman does a good job of not giving too much of a "god mode" when you're fully powered. You are not given an all powerful weapon, but you earn the right to be that weapon - like a title to maintain. When you are powered up and (emphasis on "and") you've mastered the moves, you tend to be powered up more often than not. In black mode, you get 20 punches/kicks before powering back down to white. So, figuring how to clear enemies between each power up with only 20 punches/kicks becomes part of the puzzle, if you choose. It's a nice mechanism, and compliments with how the images are used, such as in making sure each of your attacks connect on a stronger enemy and not leaving a kick facing the wrong direction, but also in attacking while the images are spread out, or as they return. The game could use a couple more areas to solidify that, more than just a feeling of awesomeness. Regardless of the 20-hit mechanism, there's a little added beauty in demonstrated efficiency.

It's not enough to make everyone like this over Strider, or like the game at all, but as you said there's still something to appreciate. It was nice to read your early impressions and remember some of my own.

Remember, you can aim throws a bit, not just "forward".
Yeah, honestly, after spending more time with the game, I came to understand it better (mostly learning the stage 2 boss better, and sitting down and memorizing some of the annoying stuff in the last two stages) and came to appreciate it a lot better. I'm glad that the game was charismatic enough for me to keep at it despite my initial frustrations, because now I do think it really is a near-masterpiece.

I do think stage 5 genuinely isn't okay, but it is pretty fun to comically blast through the first portion of the stage once you know the route, and though the second portion is a bit rote and also impossible to do blind, it's tense enough and requires fairly tight execution. The whole level is very obnoxious until it's memorized in a way the rest of the game isn't, but it is at least possible to get under control. (The boss forcing you to use bombs if you fail to maintain a high power level going into the fight is really nasty though.)

The game might have benefited just a little from not punishing the player so harshly with powerdowns after taking damage, but it is hard to say how else it could have been balanced.
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Strider77
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by Strider77 »

Fuuuuuuuk.... I made this post when I was 29.
Damn Tim, you know there are quite a few Americans out there who still lives in tents due to this shitty economy, and you're dropping loads on a single game which only last 20 min. Do you think it's fair? How much did you spend this time?
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by XtraSmiley »

Strider77 wrote:Fuuuuuuuk.... I made this post when I was 29.
Yeah, I'm going to guess you were born in 77 and really like('d) Strider too!
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by Skykid »

Sir Ilpalazzo wrote:I've been playing this lately and I'm not really sure I get it. The stylish aesthetics are undeniably appealing, and there are a lot of neat setpieces, but the game design feels really messy in ways that even Strider doesn't. The bosses feel a little incoherent and imbalanced - right from stage 2 you have Herio, whose random movement can easily get out of control, and if he decides to spend enough time floating above the arena, you often get put in situation where you won't be able to squeeze through his fire rain due to your large hitbox - and once you start taking hits, your offensive capability drops to zero (which comes up a lot throughout the game, I like that boss fights have extra powerups in them to mitigate this, but attack telegraphs in general don't feel good enough for the powerdown-on-damage system to be as punishing as it is, because you really are helpless once you lose your afterimages).

Later levels feature the stage 3 encounter with Cannons (his disassembling mech doesn't seem to be consistently dodgeable due to the way the air tunnel around the room sucks your jump in), Willt, whose homing lightspeed disk projectile has virtually no telegraph and comes out under unclear conditions (does he do it only when vaguely horizontally level with you? who knows) and the machine gun enemies who start showing up in stages 4 and 5, who fill the screen with machine gun bullets not even a second after they materialize from the screen's edge. I'm not sure about this game. Aesthetics aside, there's definitely some appreciable stuff - its implementation of afterimages is a cool one for an action sidescroller and it feels great when the game actually allows you to use them, and there are some good, well-designed fights like Sandora and Tianon - but unless there's something I'm missing about most of the later boss fights or the untelegraphed enemy attacks (and I hope there is, there's enough appealing about the game that I'd prefer to think more highly of it), the game feels like it's very sloppy on a mechanical level.

I endeavoured to 1CC the game and managed it several times. It's easy when you know how. You're right about the "sloppy" feeling, the game has a lot of RNG, especially the bosses. At first it feels like a total clusterfuck, and there are specific points on the last stage (when you get ganged up on by three bosses at once) where you have to bomb.

The bosses can be battered down as quickly as they can batter you down, however (no bombs necessary unless you're in a pinch), it's just a case of figuring out how to establish yourself fast when the round kicks off.

It's actually a really nice game overall and a lot of fun to learn (bar the last stage - that needs some extra attention that the others don't really require) but you do have to bend your head around those things that seem haphazard.
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Sl1pm0de
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by Sl1pm0de »

jepjepjep wrote:That makes sense, trap15. This is a little different though because you can't actually set the dip switch on the board. It's set at the factory and unless you desolder the eeprom to reprogram it, it can't be changed (like the region/language dip). Same thing for mame, you can't actually change the dip unless you hex edit the nvram file and manually change it.
So I would like to put my Osman conversion board I created in my Strider cabinet so I can switch between both games in the same cabinet. Strider is a 2 button cabinet and Osman is a 3 button game. I read a previous post that you can set dip 2 on bank 1 to enable 2 button mode with the bomb being -> -> A. Does anyone know which chip holds the DIP data and where and how can I change the DIPs in memory on that chip? I have the equipment to read and write the chips. Just don’t know which chip and where and how to change the data in memory.
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by Sl1pm0de »

ForeverSublime wrote:Ah! This is neat.

Bank 1, Dip 2 converts the game from 3 buttons to 2 buttons when turned off (example, 00000001 instead of 01000001). After you press start, the tuition shows your attack, jump and slide - then play begins. It doesn't show the bomb special. However, if you don't insert a coin and you watch the attract mode Osman still uses a bomb against Sandora and on the ship. I tried to play with 2 buttons AND have bombs in stock, but there was no way to use them that I could tell. I tried various button combinations - A+B, QCF, 360, Combo attack, piledriver, full power combo, etc. It makes me wonder if the bombs were an afterthought, and they were included perhaps to decrease the difficulty of the game after playtesting (that's complete speculation). There aren't any bomb pickups in the game, so I don't think it's an absurd notion. However, I seem to recall other games with 3 --> 2 button switches (but don't know for sure), so perhaps this feature is somewhat normal. It's just odd that the feature was included yet can't be accessed via the dips.
How do you set 2 button mode? I would like to enable this feature. The game doesn’t have any physical dip switches and the Switch menu triggered by the test button on the PCB doesn’t let you set individual dip switches, only the options provided in the menu.

When you say you set Bank 1, Dip 2, there are 3 switches, the Switch Menu refers to Switch 0,1 and 2. Are you referencing setting Switch1 to 00000001 to enable 2 button mode?

Thanks in advance!
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by ForeverSublime »

Sl1pm0de wrote:
ForeverSublime wrote:
How do you set 2 button mode? I would like to enable this feature. The game doesn’t have any physical dip switches and the Switch menu triggered by the test button on the PCB doesn’t let you set individual dip switches, only the options provided in the menu.

When you say you set Bank 1, Dip 2, there are 3 switches, the Switch Menu refers to Switch 0,1 and 2. Are you referencing setting Switch1 to 00000001 to enable 2 button mode?

Thanks in advance!
Forgive me, I may not be useful. I see the confusion where I misused the terms Bank and Switch. Luckily, this table is accurate:

R=Bank &1 &2 &3 &4 &5 &6 &7 &8 R=Switch0 &Damage Multiplier &Two Button Configuration &#Bombs &#Bombs &Health &Health &Screen Rotation &Language R=Switch1 &#Lives &#Lives &Difficulty &Difficulty &UNKNOWN &Extra Man Points &Continues &Demo Sound R=Switch2 &Coin 1 &Coin 1 &Coin 1 & Coin 2 &Coin 2 &Coin 2 &Developer Mode &Blood


Do you have a picture of your board? Not for me, but for anyone that may actually be able to identify the chip. I know some people had burned these settings to chips to play them on real hardware, so you are right that is probably best solution. Maybe switch banks could be soldered as well?

I still think about this game, and possible shortcuts and tricks, etc. I'd forgotten there is one unknown dip switch.

Edit: Where I wrote "Extra Man Points", the arcade term for this is "Extend", right?
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by jepjepjep »

The EEPROM that saves those dip settings is at location H-2. It's a 93C45 chip on my board. I was able to change the region and play with the damage multiplier by reading and writing this chip. There aren't any physical dip switches, the service menu lets you change a lot of the settings but not all of them.
Sl1pm0de
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by Sl1pm0de »

jepjepjep wrote:The EEPROM that saves those dip settings is at location H-2. It's a 93C45 chip on my board. I was able to change the region and play with the damage multiplier by reading and writing this chip. There aren't any physical dip switches, the service menu lets you change a lot of the settings but not all of them.
Thanks! I spent some time and figured out how to edit the values on that chip to set whatever I want for Switch0 and Switch1.

I couldn't find the location to set Switch2. Assuming it can be set. All the values besides the two I mention below and a third set at Hex 0020 (value 0088) that you shouldn't modify or your board won't load is set to FFFF. FF sets 00000000 so it could be one of those that sets Switch2. Just would take some time to test them to find out which memory location it is. You can set all of the Switch2 settings via the PCB test menu with the exception of Developer mode. Does anyone know how to set that? Might be cool to check it out.

Here is how to set the first two switches. Dump the contents of H-2 (93C45 chip). Build your dip settings using the format and Hex chart below. The format is 4 characters. This value is placed in Hex 0001 and 003C. These locations always have the same value as each other set.

Example FFFE sets 2-button mode with English text. FFFE is set in Hex 0001 and FFFE is set in 003C.
Switch0 00000001
Switch1 00000000

Character 1 sets location in bold
Switch0 00000000
Switch1 00000000

Character 2 sets location in bold
Switch0 00000000
Switch1 00000000

Character 3 sets location in bold
Switch0 00000000
Switch1 00000000

Character 4 sets location in bold
Switch0 00000000
Switch1 00000000

Mask’d Hex Value Chart - Setting 0000 actually sets the dips to 1111. Use the value on the left to set the dip values on the right.
0 = 1111
1 = 1110
2 = 1101
3 = 1100
4 = 1101
5 = 1010
6 = 1001
7 = 1000
8 = 0111
9 = 0110
A = 0101
B = 0100
C = 0011
D = 0010
E = 0001
F = 0000
ForeverSublime
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by ForeverSublime »

(Very cool, Sl1pm0de)

Is there a place people contribute files to burn to chips, so others don't have to locate/re-edit the same files over again?
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by AlxUnderBase »

Sl1pm0de wrote:
jepjepjep wrote:The EEPROM that saves those dip settings is at location H-2. It's a 93C45 chip on my board. I was able to change the region and play with the damage multiplier by reading and writing this chip. There aren't any physical dip switches, the service menu lets you change a lot of the settings but not all of them.
Thanks! I spent some time and figured out how to edit the values on that chip to set whatever I want for Switch0 and Switch1.

I couldn't find the location to set Switch2. Assuming it can be set. All the values besides the two I mention below and a third set at Hex 0020 (value 0088) that you shouldn't modify or your board won't load is set to FFFF. FF sets 00000000 so it could be one of those that sets Switch2. Just would take some time to test them to find out which memory location it is. You can set all of the Switch2 settings via the PCB test menu with the exception of Developer mode. Does anyone know how to set that? Might be cool to check it out.

Here is how to set the first two switches. Dump the contents of H-2 (93C45 chip). Build your dip settings using the format and Hex chart below. The format is 4 characters. This value is placed in Hex 0001 and 003C. These locations always have the same value as each other set.

Example FFFE sets 2-button mode with English text. FFFE is set in Hex 0001 and FFFE is set in 003C.
Switch0 00000001
Switch1 00000000

Character 1 sets location in bold
Switch0 00000000
Switch1 00000000

Character 2 sets location in bold
Switch0 00000000
Switch1 00000000

Character 3 sets location in bold
Switch0 00000000
Switch1 00000000

Character 4 sets location in bold
Switch0 00000000
Switch1 00000000

Mask’d Hex Value Chart - Setting 0000 actually sets the dips to 1111. Use the value on the left to set the dip values on the right.
0 = 1111
1 = 1110
2 = 1101
3 = 1100
4 = 1101
5 = 1010
6 = 1001
7 = 1000
8 = 0111
9 = 0110
A = 0101
B = 0100
C = 0011
D = 0010
E = 0001
F = 0000
Glad you writed them here buddy ! I will still modify the settings in HEX untill i will get what i want ! In any rate, nice to try these :D
Sl1pm0de
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by Sl1pm0de »

ForeverSublime wrote:(Very cool, Sl1pm0de)

Is there a place people contribute files to burn to chips, so others don't have to locate/re-edit the same files over again?
Thanks! I don’t know but if someone knows of a place I am happy to email them some pre-written bin files to put online.
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by AlxUnderBase »

Sl1pm0de wrote:
ForeverSublime wrote:(Very cool, Sl1pm0de)

Is there a place people contribute files to burn to chips, so others don't have to locate/re-edit the same files over again?
Thanks! I don’t know but if someone knows of a place I am happy to email them some pre-written bin files to put online.
Will be nice !
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by llaoyllakcuf »

Last edited by llaoyllakcuf on Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:38 am, edited 3 times in total.
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NYN
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Cannon Dancer makes me wanna try

Post by NYN »

It's coming? No kidding? 8)

I fantasized about this for a while, but if it comes true I will shed tears of joy.
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by Sumez »

So does that mean it's getting a unique port with bells and whistles, or is this just to say it's coming on Arcade Archives?
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Jeneki
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by Jeneki »

ININ Games is mentioned, so probably not Arcade Archives.

Google translation:
The arcade game "Cannon Dancer", which is deeply popular with fans, will be ported to Nintendo Switch and PlayStation 4, and will be released as a package version from ININ Games in 2023! This work, which has a unique world view, features vivid and detailed pixel art and speedy action.
In any case this could be promising for more than just Cannon Dancer. Mitchell has a number of obscure arcade releases I'd like to see get a home release.
Typos caused by cat on keyboard.
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Sumez
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Re: Cannon Dancer makes me cry

Post by Sumez »

A new Pang collection would definitely be appreciated, but I'd love to see Charlie Ninja as well at least.
Do Konami own all Mitchell's old IPs now, or just this one?

Good news on ININ, looking forward to finally owning a physical copy of Osman!
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