Did Microsoft Finally Decided to Fix the Black Crush Issue?

[Lawfer]

For those who don't know, black crush has been an issue on Microsoft consoles since the Xbox 360 which would give you black crush if you set hooked your Xbox 360 or Xbox One/Xbox One X console through HDMI and set the "Reference Levels" (RGB Range) to "Expended" (Full Range RGB), this would give you black crush (even on a TV or monitor which uses Full Range RGB), a way to bypass this issue (at least on Xbox 360) is to not use HDMI but instead to use VGA output and set the Reference Levels to "Expended" which will give you Full Range RGB from the Xbox 360 but without the black crush and this work around is not possible with the Xbox One/Xbox One X.

With the Xbox Series X (the new console), I did look at some comparison videos on Digital Foundry, you would always notice that in comparison videos the Xbox 360 and Xbox One/Xbox One X were noticeably darker than PS3, PS4, PS4 Pro and PC, but with the Xbox Series X I do not see any difference between PS5/PC and Xbox Series X so far, Digital Foundry even discussed this issue in one of their articles, about how the gamma levels on Xbox 360 and Xbox One games was cranked out of proportion because Microsoft thought that artifically making the picture as dark as possible gave it more "pop" (whatever that means...).

And someone on reddit was wondering the same thing a few months back:

https://www.reddit.com/r/XboxSeriesX/co ... o_fix_the/

But he never got an answer since he posted this thread too early as the Xbox Series X was not even out yet, I tried to google some more to find additional information, but there doesn't seem to be anybody discussing this.

Anybody here was able to verify if that Xbox Series X fixed the black crush issue with Xbox 360, Xbox One and Xbox Series X games?

[fernan1234]

I've been using HDMI+full range RGB on my 360, didn't realize this was an issue. I've been using it on a multisync CRT though, perhaps that helps.

What's a good way to check for black crush? And does the official component cable bypass this problem like the VGA one?

[Lawfer]

I've been using HDMI+full range RGB on my 360, didn't realize this was an issue. I've been using it on a multisync CRT though, perhaps that helps.

Does a multisync CRT has HDMI inputs?

What's a good way to check for black crush?

A game that has dark areas but is too dark to see the details, Zone of the Enders HD, the beginning is really dark and in Full Range RGB with HDMI you will lose alot of details due to black crush, I would think that another relatively dark games like Resident Evil 6, Code Veronica X or The Evil Within might be too hard to see alot of the details in darker areas with black crush abound.

Here is (I think) a good example of black crush (yes I know, it's not an Xbox game):

And does the official component cable bypass this problem like the VGA one?

Frankly I don't know, throughout the years the only workaround I have seen mentioned on various forums is VGA, never seen anyone mention Component.

[fernan1234]

Does a multisync CRT has HDMI inputs?

I use an HDMI to VGA dongle, then combine the HV sync. The 360 is set to 1080i. I do suspect that any black crush issue would be less evident than on a flat panel, those are more sensitive to limited/full range RGB mismatching.

A game that has dark areas but is too dark to see the details, Zone of the Enders HD, the beginning is really dark and in Full Range RGB with HDMI you will lose alot of details due to black crush, I would think that another relatively dark games like Resident Evil 6, Code Veronica X or The Evil Within might be too hard to see alot of the details in darker areas with black crush abound.

Here is (I think) a good example of black crush (yes I know, it's not an Xbox game):

I don't have any of those, but I'll be on the lookout for this problem next time I use my 360. I've mostly played shooters and adventure games where black crush may be less obvious.

[Lawfer]

I am guessing you don't have an Xbox Series X?

[fernan1234]

No, only a 360.

[Lawfer]

No, only a 360.

Yeah same here, I am trying to find out if the Xbox Series X finally fixed this issue, since I'd rather get HDMI instead of me having to use VGA.

[fernan1234]

Well thanks for making this topic, after looking for it today I definitely noticed the black crush with expanded reference level. I also read up on this issue a bit, found a really good explanation on the first post here: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/xbo ... 6e1?page=3

After experimenting, I think I'm gonna go with the weird "intermediate" setting as a compromise that works well enough, at least on my monitor. This is definitely the result of Microsoft messing up in multiple ways (the biggest one being flagging the HDMI RGB picture as limited regardless of the reference level setting). Sounds like VGA is not a perfect solution since it can clip whites in turn. Hopefully the new Microsoft console doesn't carry over this problem, though I have far less interest in it given that it doesn't get the same unique level of attention from Japanese developers (such as Cave) that the 360 got.

[Lawfer]

After experimenting, I think I'm gonna go with the weird "intermediate" setting as a compromise that works well enough

Yeah that should be fine, though "intermediate" is out-of-spec as it's neither limited (16-235) nor is it full (0-255), it's some weird RGB range that Microsoft made for the 360.

Sounds like VGA is not a perfect solution since it can clip whites in turn.

Oh? Is that accurate? Because VGA is supposed to be 0-255, so shouldn't have any problem with whites or blacks?

Hopefully the new Microsoft console doesn't carry over this problem, though I have far less interest in it given that it doesn't get the same unique level of attention from Japanese developers (such as Cave) that the 360 got.

Same here, no japanese exclusives = no buy from me, hence why I haven't bothered with Microsoft consoles since the 360. But the Xbox Series X might be interesting if it finally fixed the black crush issue that's been plaging microsoft consoles since the 360.

[thebigcheese]

There's not much reason to set the consoles to anything other than limited anyway (unless you are using a monitor and it only supports full range, that is). At least with the Xbox One, IIRC, whenever it switches to HDR it has to change it to limited anyway. PS4 is the same way and I thiiiink the new consoles are, too. So you don't get full range with HDR and you get no real visible benefit in non-HDR even if it was working correctly.

[Lawfer]

I don't use HDR and Full Range RGB gives you the full RGB colors as they were intended.

[thebigcheese]

I don't use HDR and Full Range RGB gives you the full RGB colors as they were intended.

On paper, sure, but there are many videos, articles, etc that go into detail about how in actual practice there should be no visible difference provided that both TV and source are set to the same range. There's also things like Blu-ray movies which are all mastered for RGB limited - my TV doesn't have an auto option for RGB range unless I'm in PC mode, which disables the "jutter free" mode for movies. So rather than have to change RGB range (and turn on/off PC mode) on my TV every time I switch between movies and games, it's way easier to just leave the console on limited. The Xbox consoles, at least, support ALLM, so I can have one profile for games and another for non-games, but even then the PC mode thing is a global setting for the input, so I still wouldn't get an auto RGB range option unless I deal without jutter reduction.

And anyway, "intent" is somewhat meaningless in a situation where the manufacturer intentionally crushes the blacks. Would developers know that and create games that display things as close to correctly as possible in spite of that? Or would they make things actually correct not realizing (or not caring) that they would be displayed incorrectly? In any event, if you want to see things as they should look, limited range is the only viable choice on any Xbox up until (possibly including) the Series consoles. If it's not going to make any actual perceivable difference, why bother fighting it?

Regarding the Series X specifically, HDTV Test does some of the best explainers on settings, so you might give this video a watch as he talks about which settings you should use: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw4ia4-OmHE. I don't know if it's covered in this video, but originally the Series X displayed blacks incorrectly (brighter than they should be) for 4K Blu-rays and that has since been fixed.

[Lawfer]

Black crush:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm4uNK5ydGw&t=10m57s

[energizerfellow‌]

The Xbox 360 has a broken, segmented gamma curve, which is why color is jacked on the 360:
https://alex.vlachos.com/graphics/Vlachos-GDC08-PostProcessingInTheOrangeBox.pdf

For the Xbox One, it's the web browser and picture viewer (and many non-game apps?) that are broken as Microsoft both expects BT.709 input (which is standard/limited/TV range) and implemented the "full" setting to be a system-wide limited-to-full expander:
https://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/6yslm3/xbox_one_standardpc_rgb_settings_information/
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/xbox-one-s-black-level-another-thread.1285583/#post-218381369

EDID might be borked on the OG One, but fixed in later hardware revisions?
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/are-xbox-ones-rgb-settings-broken.795866/#post-106837076
https://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/6yslm3/xbox_one_standardpc_rgb_settings_information/dmpwrao?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Black crush:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm4uNK5ydGw&t=10m57s

In this specific example it sounds like the game developer crewed up their tone mapping algorithm.

[Lawfer]

The Xbox 360 has a broken, segmented gamma curve, which is why color is jacked on the 360:
https://alex.vlachos.com/graphics/Vlachos-GDC08-PostProcessingInTheOrangeBox.pdf

For the Xbox One, it's the web browser and picture viewer (and many non-game apps?) that are broken as Microsoft both expects BT.709 input (which is standard/limited/TV range) and implemented the "full" setting to be a system-wide limited-to-partial expander:
https://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/6yslm3/xbox_one_standardpc_rgb_settings_information/
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/xbox-one-s-black-level-another-thread.1285583/#post-218381369

EDID might be borked on the OG One, but fixed in later hardware revisions?
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/are-xbox-ones-rgb-settings-broken.795866/#post-106837076
https://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/6yslm3/xbox_one_standardpc_rgb_settings_information/dmpwrao?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Do you know if these issues with Xbox 360 and Xbox One games are fixed when played on the Xbox Series X/S?