Dreamcast with OSSC cable choices for Ikaruga

[rcboosted]

My favorite game on DC is Ikaruga, which I believe is a 240p game based on what I can find online. I want to get the best possible image quality on DC using OSSC on LCD TV via HDMI. That's probably DCHDMI, but that mod has been ruled out for me due to high cost. So far, through days of research online via various forums and sites, I still can't figure these questions out.

1. Does Ikaruga support 480P via VGA. I think it does from a post on this forum.
2. Does Ikaruga look better via VGA at 480p, or via SCART with RGB at 240P. All going through OSSC to a LCD TV.
3. If I go with VGA, would I be unable to play a lot of other games? The list I saw that support 480P VGA is rather short.
4. Recommendation for a DC cable? $38 seems excessive before shipping for a DC -> SCART cable.

Although I want Ikaruga to look as good as possible, but I don't want to limit to just a few games using VGA cable if most games don't support it. But 480p VGA might just be a limit of VGA standard on CRT monitors, maybe OSSC doesn't care if the VGA input coming in is 240P or 480p? Thanks for any expertise anyone can provide.

[rcboosted]

Answering my own questions as I find more answers:

1. Yes, it does support 480p
2. I'll probably never find out
3. Yes, only limited games support 480p. Best option is the SCART cable from retrogamingcables or retro-access, they can switch between 15kHz and 31kHz for 240p/480i/15kHz and 480p/31kHz. But not all games support 240p at 15khz.
4. $35 from retro-access seems to be as good as it gets. OOS at both places right now though.
5. OSSC supports 240p, 480i and 480p across all inputs

[maxtherabbit]

The number of dreamcast games which do not support 480p is absolutely minuscule. Probably less than 5%

[rcboosted]

I saw this list for VGA compatibility and Ikaruga wasn't on it, hence the question. It can be difficult to find a specific piece of information sometimes.

https://www.epforums.org/showthread.php ... -amp-Guide

[Fudoh]

If you want compatibility across the whole library on the OSSC (minus very titles that support neither VGA nor RGB on the DC), the cost for a good RGB or VGA cable is justified, since it will have a switch for 15/31khz selection. Cheaper cables don't have those.

[Konsolkongen]

Ikaruga supports VGA.

[rcboosted]

If you want compatibility across the whole library on the OSSC (minus very titles that support neither VGA nor RGB on the DC), the cost for a good RGB or VGA cable is justified, since it will have a switch for 15/31khz selection. Cheaper cables don't have those.

A fully shielded cable with a PCB for frequency selection is justifiable. I'm new to Dreamcast, and DC is quite special in its various output modes that these cables were quite custom, I feel better about the price now. From what I'm learning, the SCART cable is the most compatible for me I think. It should be able to give the OSSC 480p for Ikaruga.

Ikaruga supports VGA.

Thank you for confirming.

[Fudoh]

From what I'm learning, the SCART cable is the most compatible for me I think. It should be able to give the OSSC 480p for Ikaruga.

in combination with an OSSC - certainly.

Regular DC Scart cables (from ebay) would lock the DC into 15khz RGBs mode, while a VGA box would lock it into 31khz RGBHV mode. With a switch on the cable you are able to get both. For the majority of titles you can leave the switch at 31khz and if you run into anything that's not compatible you just try 15khz RGB instead.

[nmalinoski]

In my opinion, the best cable option for use with the OSSC is indeed a SCART cable with a mode selection switch and a built-in sync combiner. Not only does that switch let you trick most 480i-only games into outputting in 480p, but the video output will benefit from the low-pass filtering available through AV1 (and AV2) on the OSSC, which the DE-15 input (AV3) lacks.

Also, I think the Dreamcast technically does not output VGA; it is 640x480, but it's embedded in a 720x480 frame, which makes it DTV 480p; if the video encoder didn't pillarbox the image like that, then I think it would be compliant VGA.

[darcagn]

Quick newbie rundown for everything Dreamcast video:

• Dreamcast has three video modes: TV (rf, composite, s-video), RGB (15KHz RGBS, for SCART), and VGA (which like nmalinoski mentioned above, is really DTV 480p, so make sure your monitor is adjusted for the proper aspect ratio)
• Dreamcast video cables have pins that identify them to the console as TV, RGB, or VGA cables
• Dreamcast discs have options in their headers that can specify not to boot in RGB or VGA modes
• If the console BIOS reads a disc and detects the game header says it's not compatible with the inserted cable type, it will refuse to boot
• All games work in TV mode, of course
• All PAL games have RGB enabled and work in RGB mode
• Ikaruga works in all modes but would look best in VGA mode -- most games should look best in VGA mode
• Video modes can vary from region to region: for example, Skies of Arcadia NTSC-U works in VGA but not RGB; Skies of Arcadia PAL works in RGB but not VGA
• There's a good number of games that should be compatible with VGA but the developer for some reason chose to leave it off in the header -- thus the game can only work in VGA if the compatibility check is bypassed
• Bypassing can be done with a cable swap trick, or a boot disc, or by soldering in a patched BIOS, or by directly patching the disc
• There's a few game titles which truly aren't compatible even with a bypass
• Of these, several have fan-made patches to the disc that can fix it and make it compatible

Once you get the correct versions of titles and have the right patches applied, you will have almost everything VGA compatible....
But, IMO, no matter what you do, if you have a sizeable library of Dreamcast titles you will end up eventually wanting to play a game that no matter what patching or tricks you use, you'll have to switch cable types away from VGA.
That's why options like the DCDigital and the OSSC+SCART cable w/ mode select are so necessary (and popular) -- users no longer have to choose between a quality cable or a compatible cable

[rcboosted]

Quick newbie rundown for everything Dreamcast video:

• Dreamcast has three video modes: TV (rf, composite, s-video), RGB (15KHz RGBS, for SCART), and VGA (which like nmalinoski mentioned above, is really DTV 480p, so make sure your monitor is adjusted for the proper aspect ratio)
• Dreamcast video cables have pins that identify them to the console as TV, RGB, or VGA cables
• Dreamcast discs have options in their headers that can specify not to boot in RGB or VGA modes
• If the console BIOS reads a disc and detects the game header says it's not compatible with the inserted cable type, it will refuse to boot
• All games work in TV mode, of course
• All PAL games have RGB enabled and work in RGB mode
• Ikaruga works in all modes but would look best in VGA mode -- most games should look best in VGA mode
• Video modes can vary from region to region: for example, Skies of Arcadia NTSC-U works in VGA but not RGB; Skies of Arcadia PAL works in RGB but not VGA
• There's a good number of games that should be compatible with VGA but the developer for some reason chose to leave it off in the header -- thus the game can only work in VGA if the compatibility check is bypassed
• Bypassing can be done with a cable swap trick, or a boot disc, or by soldering in a patched BIOS, or by directly patching the disc
• There's a few game titles which truly aren't compatible even with a bypass
• Of these, several have fan-made patches to the disc that can fix it and make it compatible

Once you get the correct versions of titles and have the right patches applied, you will have almost everything VGA compatible....
But, IMO, no matter what you do, if you have a sizeable library of Dreamcast titles you will end up eventually wanting to play a game that no matter what patching or tricks you use, you'll have to switch cable types away from VGA.
That's why options like the DCDigital and the OSSC+SCART cable w/ mode select are so necessary (and popular) -- users no longer have to choose between a quality cable or a compatible cable

Thank you for the detailed run down. I was missing pieces of information here and there. Some times people/guides use terms interchangeably when they're not really clear to new users, this clears up most of them! Just to be absolutely clear, DC VGA mode does not necessarily mean I have to use DC's VGA video cable. I can use the switchable SCART cable to get 480P (DTV 480P at 720x480, not the normal 640x480) using the 31kHz mode. If so, it makes sense for me to go the SCART cable route. But then if I ever decide that I want to play it on a VGA monitor lol. That's probably not going to be the case in the near future.

[darcagn]

Thank you for the detailed run down. I was missing pieces of information here and there. Some times people/guides use terms interchangeably when they're not really clear to new users, this clears up most of them! Just to be absolutely clear, DC VGA mode does not necessarily mean I have to use DC's VGA video cable. I can use the switchable SCART cable to get 480P (DTV 480P at 720x480, not the normal 640x480) using the 31kHz mode. If so, it makes sense for me to go the SCART cable route. But then if I ever decide that I want to play it on a VGA monitor lol. That's probably not going to be the case in the near future.

That is correct, the DC "VGA mode" is the DTV 480p mode, and you don't need to be using an actual VGA video cable to be in that mode. When you are using the 31KHz mode over SCART, you will be in "VGA mode"
15KHz mode = "RGB mode" = you get all the compatibility that comes normally with SCART cables
31KHz mode = "VGA mode" = you get all the compatibility that comes normally with VGA cables

The switch built into the cable is switching the pins on the end of the cable to tell the Dreamcast which mode to use (and to be compatible with).

[rcboosted]

Thank you for the detailed run down. I was missing pieces of information here and there. Some times people/guides use terms interchangeably when they're not really clear to new users, this clears up most of them! Just to be absolutely clear, DC VGA mode does not necessarily mean I have to use DC's VGA video cable. I can use the switchable SCART cable to get 480P (DTV 480P at 720x480, not the normal 640x480) using the 31kHz mode. If so, it makes sense for me to go the SCART cable route. But then if I ever decide that I want to play it on a VGA monitor lol. That's probably not going to be the case in the near future.

That is correct, the DC "VGA mode" is the DTV 480p mode, and you don't need to be using an actual VGA video cable to be in that mode. When you are using the 31KHz mode over SCART, you will be in "VGA mode"
15KHz mode = "RGB mode" = you get all the compatibility that comes normally with SCART cables
31KHz mode = "VGA mode" = you get all the compatibility that comes normally with VGA cables

The switch built into the cable is switching the pins on the end of the cable to tell the Dreamcast which mode to use (and to be compatible with).

Thank you for clearing this up for me! Now I just gotta get on twitter so I can be notified of retro-access's stock situation.

[fernan1234]

I actually did the opposite of what most people do with Dreamcast VGA cables. I got one of those cheap commonly available DC VGA cables and cut pin 6 on it (or was it 7?) to get 15khz RGB instead of 31khz "VGA". Of course, it's RGBHV, so I use an Extron RGB interface to combine it into RGBS for my BVM (which happens to be multiformat, but I prefer how most DC games look when rendered at 15khz).

Problem is, the audio lines on those cables are poorly shielded, if at all, so I get a lot of buzzing, and it's particularly a problem since I only really play with headphones. I also have the official VGA Box which has less buzzy audio for VGA-paired stereo jack output (and, surprisingly, perfectly clean noise-free audio via the RCA audio jacks, but those only work in "TV" mode for composite and S-video), which I can get to output 15khz RGB by starting a game with the other cable plugged in and then swapping it. I don't like to do this a lot though to avoid putting stress on the console's AV connector, and it's kind of a pain.

If only I could get a custom DSub cable from Retro-access. Since they never seem to get cabling in again, I'm thinking of just getting a DCDigital kit strictly for the digital audio output--and maybe mess around with the scaled digital outputs at some point.

BTW, Skies of Arcadia was mentioned earlier as one of those weird games that lock out video modes at the software level. For a long time I've been holding out on playing it (actually, the Japanese version Eternal Arcadia) due to this issue. I know there was a fan patch to force RGB on the NTSC-U version, as well as VGA on the PAL version. If someone has some know-how on how I could modify the header for the disc image of the NTSC-J release to enable 15khz RGB, please let me know!

[darcagn]

Since they never seem to get cabling in again, I'm thinking of just getting a DCDigital kit strictly for the digital audio output--and maybe mess around with the scaled digital outputs at some point.

If audio is the primary reason you're interested in a DCDigital setup, there's cheaper alternatives, like doing a digital coax output. Here's the info on the procedure, and here's what it can look like. Example pic is of the Dreamcast I primarily used before the DCDigital or mode-switching SCART cables existed, with a digital audio mod I installed and my own mode-switching SCART cable I made in a project box.

BTW, Skies of Arcadia was mentioned earlier as one of those weird games that lock out video modes at the software level. For a long time I've been holding out on playing it (actually, the Japanese version Eternal Arcadia) due to this issue. I know there was a fan patch to force RGB on the NTSC-U version, as well as VGA on the PAL version. If someone has some know-how on how I could modify the header for the disc image of the NTSC-J release to enable 15khz RGB, please let me know!

Unfortunately for this one, it's going to take more than just modifying the header for it to work in 15KHz RGB.
There's a patch out there for Skies of Arcadia NTSC-U to enable RGB though, perhaps it could be adapted to fix the NTSC-J release.

[fernan1234]

If audio is the primary reason you're interested in a DCDigital setup, there's cheaper alternatives, like doing a digital coax output. Here's the info on the procedure, and here's what it can look like. Example pic is of the Dreamcast I primarily used before the DCDigital or mode-switching SCART cables existed, with a digital audio mod I installed and my own mode-switching SCART cable I made in a project box.

This is an interesting option! How did it work in your experience? Any issues or drawbacks? I've heard of instances where people had issues with optical audio mods on other consoles. I think it was on a PS1 modded for optical audio that had issues after installing a PSIO switchboard or something like that.

There's a patch out there for Skies of Arcadia NTSC-U to enable RGB though, perhaps it could be adapted to fix the NTSC-J release.

Last time I googled around I couldn't even find the NTSC-U patch, all the links are dead after that big purge a couple of years ago that wiped megaupload and a ton of other file lockers. I should try asking at the dreamcast-talk forums.

[darcagn]

If audio is the primary reason you're interested in a DCDigital setup, there's cheaper alternatives, like doing a digital coax output. Here's the info on the procedure, and here's what it can look like. Example pic is of the Dreamcast I primarily used before the DCDigital or mode-switching SCART cables existed, with a digital audio mod I installed and my own mode-switching SCART cable I made in a project box.

This is an interesting option! How did it work in your experience? Any issues or drawbacks? I've heard of instances where people had issues with optical audio mods on other consoles. I think it was on a PS1 modded for optical audio that had issues after installing a PSIO switchboard or something like that.

It worked very well. But I only ever ran it on my own receivers at home (I own two Pioneer receivers). I've done S/PDIF mods to Dreamcast, Saturn, SNES, and PS1 without issue.

There's a patch out there for Skies of Arcadia NTSC-U to enable RGB though, perhaps it could be adapted to fix the NTSC-J release.

Last time I googled around I couldn't even find the NTSC-U patch, all the links are dead after that big purge a couple of years ago that wiped megaupload and a ton of other file lockers. I should try asking at the dreamcast-talk forums.

It's available here, but I can't figure out what release it's supposed to be for. The patch was released in May 2001 when the only US scene releases of the game in existence were RYUCPL and TALON, and both images say size mismatch.

[Josh128]

The cable switch and being able to use SCART for 31KHz is news to me. Does that mean that both H and V sync must be wired in the cable and if so, what pins are used? Ive never seen a SCART pinout containing H and V sync, just composite sync.

[darcagn]

The cable switch and being able to use SCART for 31KHz is news to me. Does that mean that both H and V sync must be wired in the cable and if so, what pins are used? Ive never seen a SCART pinout containing H and V sync, just composite sync.

It's a hack setup and the SCART end still uses composite sync. 31KHz is not part of the SCART "standard" but both the OSSC and Framemeister will accept 31KHz RGB with composite sync in their RGB in ports.
The Dreamcast provides H and V sync in 15KHz and 31KHz modes, but only provides composite sync in 15KHz mode.
Therefore these cables use the H and V sync, but employ an in-line sync combiner to always have RGBS output.

• Switch position 1 puts the DC in "RGB" mode, takes the DC's 15KHz RGBHV output and converts it to standard 15KHz RGBS compatible with all standard SCART monitors.
• Switch position 2 puts the DC in "VGA" mode, takes the DC's 31KHz RGBHV output and converts it to a non-standard 31KHz RGBS compatible with OSSC and Framemeister

[rcboosted]

It's a hack setup and the SCART end still uses composite sync. 31KHz is not part of the SCART "standard" but both the OSSC and Framemeister will accept 31KHz RGB with composite sync in their RGB in ports.
The Dreamcast provides H and V sync in 15KHz and 31KHz modes, but only provides composite sync in 15KHz mode.
Therefore these cables use the H and V sync, but employ an in-line sync combiner to always have RGBS output.

• Switch position 1 puts the DC in "RGB" mode, takes the DC's 15KHz RGBHV output and converts it to standard 15KHz RGBS compatible with all standard SCART monitors.
• Switch position 2 puts the DC in "VGA" mode, takes the DC's 31KHz RGBHV output and converts it to a non-standard 31KHz RGBS compatible with OSSC and Framemeister

I think this needs special emphasis, hopefully this thread helps others looking for answers in the future. The fact that OSSC allows these different standards and the special SCART cables allowing it was part of why I was confused in the first place. That combined with DC's own special VGA mode and different games having different compatibility.

[Shelcoof]

I thought Naomi output native 480p
Would assume Ikaruga was intended to be played in 480p

That said I've used a scanline generator with Ikaruga to give it a 240p look and it looks terrible with tons of jaggies.
480p super smooth