Shmups on PS5

[evil_ash_xero]

If anyone here is fortunate enough to get a PS5, if you could test run your shmups and make sure they're all working... well, it would be nice to let us know.
That thing is supposed to be pretty compatible, but I don't know if a lot of people are going to be testing games as niche as these.

[StrzxgvNuvWvfld]

I was just looking through a list of games that may have issues and notice Darius Cozmic Collection Arcade is on there

https://www.pushsquare.com/guides/ps5-b ... ors-on-ps5

Hopefully Sony will continue to improve compatability with future updates and these issues will be ironed out.

[clippa]

I'm assuming the backwards compatibility is achieved via emulation. Could this mean extra input lag?

[evil_ash_xero]

I'm assuming the backwards compatibility is achieved via emulation. Could this mean extra input lag?

Is it? I hope not.

I was just looking through a list of games that may have issues and notice Darius Cozmic Collection Arcade is on there

https://www.pushsquare.com/guides/ps5-b ... ors-on-ps5

Hopefully Sony will continue to improve compatability with future updates and these issues will be ironed out.

Thanks for the list. That'll be something I keep an eye on. Not like I'll be able to get a PS5 anytime soon, thanks to bots and demand.

Only one game I own is on there (Darius). I wonder if it affects Darius Gaiden, as that's the only game I play on there. That being said, I kind of doubt they are checking JP Only shmups.
Something like Caladrius Blaze, I would assume, they wouldn't really take the time to test. And yeah, I hope that it improves with future patches. The boost to older games looks great.
And the PS5 is so frickin' big, I'd like to put my PS4 Pro aside. However, I'd hate to have to have it around for one or two games. And I would.

[StrzxgvNuvWvfld]

As far as I understand it (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm totally wrong!) the PS5 and PS4 are both using Radeon GPUs and x86 processors, so it's a bit like upgrading a PC where your old games should still work on your new hardware. There's probably a bit more involved, but it's a lot less complicated than having to write an emulator for old hardware.

[Rastan78]

It will be interesting to see how this back compatability thing plays out. I think it's a great thing for gaming in general. And hopefully it will reduce the ridiculous amount of full priced "remasters" of 3 or 4 year old games. That being said, its probably not a bad idea to hang on to OG hardware that your games were originally made for in order to bypass any potential input lag, crashes, graphical glitches etc.

I would bet all the big AAA games like Last of Us etc will be optimized for the new hardware, but something like a retro arcade port or doujin shmup is any one's guess. Also there probably won't be much reliable coverage or info about how well back compat works for more niche titles. This can also depend on how much you care about the minor details. I got a lot of fun out of playing PS1 classics on the PSP knowing that it was a very nice way to play even if there were minor flaws. Portable R Type Delta all the way.

It will also be really interesting to see if and when Hamster and M2 and the like jump to supporting the new hardware. Switch started getting the Arcade Archives Neo Geo stuff right at launch. Right now it seems like the current consoles are on a bit of a roll with retro releases. Will something like M2 Toaplan ports end up on next gen too or will they stay with the established user base for a couple more years?

[prophetic]

It will be interesting to see how this back compatability thing plays out.

So far, I think it's been kinda odd that the R-type Final 2 trailer shows logos for Xbox One and S|X, but only PS4. Is Sony more uptight about calling a backward compatible game as being for PS5? Whereas maybe Microsoft wants to artificially inflate the Series S|X catalog with backwards compatibility?

[Marc]

It will be interesting to see how this back compatability thing plays out. I think it's a great thing for gaming in general. And hopefully it will reduce the ridiculous amount of full priced "remasters" of 3 or 4 year old games. That being said, its probably not a bad idea to hang on to OG hardware that your games were originally made for in order to bypass any potential input lag, crashes, graphical glitches etc.

I would bet all the big AAA games like Last of Us etc will be optimized for the new hardware, but something like a retro arcade port or doujin shmup is any one's guess. Also there probably won't be much reliable coverage or info about how well back compat works for more niche titles. This can also depend on how much you care about the minor details. I got a lot of fun out of playing PS1 classics on the PSP knowing that it was a very nice way to play even if there were minor flaws. Portable R Type Delta all the way.

It will also be really interesting to see if and when Hamster and M2 and the like jump to supporting the new hardware. Switch started getting the Arcade Archives Neo Geo stuff right at launch. Right now it seems like the current consoles are on a bit of a roll with retro releases. Will something like M2 Toaplan ports end up on next gen too or will they stay with the established user base for a couple more years?

I'd assume from what I've seen, they should be compatible with both? Is there any coin-op hardware that might require PS5 levels of power?

[Rastan78]

Believe it or not the extra power wouldn't hurt. I remember hearing M2 say in an interview that they could barely run Batrider on PS4. I can only imagine this must be because they have really strict standards of what it means for the game to run well via emulation? Especially regarding input lag.

Having 4k could actually benefit retro ports by having better scaling options and far more realistic scanline filters. And something like a G-Sync monitor can allow games that had an odd refresh that is not quite at 60hz (the vast majority of retro games btw) to run at correct speed without stutter. Something that CRTs had no issue with.

Also I've heard running a game on a 120 hz monitor and inserting a black frame every other one will correct the motion blurring problem that LCDs have. I know they've gotten much better over the years, but you go back to a CRT and fast moving backgrounds and bullets just stay so much more crisp in motion.

So yeah, these are incremental improvements but all added up I'd say there is still some potential for retro emulation to look and play better on new hardware. But still not as good as the games were on hopelessly outdated original hardware! For that we will have to wait for 8k and PS6

[jedinat]

Believe it or not the extra power wouldn't hurt. I remember hearing M2 say in an interview that they could barely run Batrider on PS4.

That's gotta be complete bullshit. Batrider runs fine on my chinese retro handheld. Which probably has about 1/100th the power of a PS4.

[Rastan78]

"One of the bottlenecks for a rerelease of Armed Police Batrider by M2 is that it runs even slower than Battle Garegga, as the game came out afterwards. Overall, games from the latter half of the 90s are barely able to run with the PS4’s specs in M2 rereleases."

http://www.siliconera.com/m2-discusses- ... -more/amp/

[spmbx]

Not sure what they are doing with it but that doesn’t make sense at all. If you can’t get that running on ps4 spec hardware you’re either doing something wrong or doing something incredibly inefficient.

[Rastan78]

It does seem really strange. Sounds like a case of total perfectionists for better or worse. I'm sure they got it running fine by normal standards and "barely runs" is a total exaggeration. I know that's one port I'd love to have either way.

[heli]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBMA_E2ETk0
[youtube]CBMA_E2ETk0[/youtube]
if your will run any game

[StrzxgvNuvWvfld]

Sounds like a case of total perfectionists for better or worse.

Isn't perfectionism the reason we love them?!

I don't know much about the PS4's CPU and I don't know much about coding an emulator, but based on my exeperience of programming in general I would think you want to do as much as possible in one frame to stop you ending up 5-6 frames behind and therefore that will require some extra CPU power. I would imagine aiming for things like accurate sound emulation could also start to eat cycles.

Bear in mind consoles are usually built to throw around fast of 3D graphics rather than as emulation machines.

[Rastan78]

Isn't perfectionism the reason we love them?!

Yeah, totally. At least we know if they ever do release Batrider it will be near perfect. M2 is basically the only trustworthy dev out there when it comes to accuracy in retro ports. Actually, I'd maybe add NERD to that list.

But coming from the perspective of someone who doesn't know much about emulation, it's surprising that they can do Esprade and G Darius on Switch, but they can't do Batrider on PS4.

[BIL]

Isn't perfectionism the reason we love them?!

Yeah, totally. At least we know if they ever do release Batrider it will be near perfect. M2 is basically the only trustworthy dev out there when it comes to accuracy in retro ports. Actually, I'd maybe add NERD to that list.

Gotch, and by extension Hamster, are the only devs besides M2 that have my implicit trust with these things. Worth noting Gotch's ACA Contra is still, inexplicably, the only emulation (official or not) to correctly emulate the 3D stages. Even M2 got that wrong in the Anniversary Collection. It's a tiny detail probably .001% of gamers care about, but that just makes me more impressed. :3

More importantly, the above three have a track record of fixing their mistakes. I'm semi-charitable towards Digital Eclipse - nobody else seems interested in putting the utterly killer Search And Rescue on PS4 - but SNK 40th's bugs are ridiculous. Randomly freezing controls? Who playtested this? I wouldn't mind if a patch was in the works, but I'm informed that at the ripe age of two years, it's "too old."

Not saying I don't give other devs a chance, just that M2/Gotch/Hamster are the only ones I don't feel like I'm rolling the dice on with every purchase.

[Rastan78]

I noticed Gotch credited on the title screen of Gradius for Switch. Haven't dl'ed Gradius II yet tho.

I liked their Namco Collection for Switch. Splatterhouse and Rolling Thunder 2 are a lot of fun.

Their games don't quite have that premium M2 feel, but that's ok.

As far as the M2 Contra collection, that one as well as the Castlevania one felt a little rushed by M2 standards. AC Super Contra has missing voice samples for example. How does the slowdown between ACA Contra and M2 collection Contra compare? I heard the M2 one has a ton of extra slowdown.

Nothing major, but the screen options etc. also felt a little bare bones. That being said the price was lower for a good amount of games across a variety of hardware. Personally I would pay 40 or 50 bucks for a Contra or Castlevania collection that had all the bells and whistles. Why can't I turn on scanlines and turn off the blurry filter like any other M2 port? Wouldn't be surprised if Konami was making some bad decisions and cutting the time and budget too short, which is why we didn't see Cozmic Collection or shot triggers levels of quality. Then again when you compare it to the Hamster collection with Gradius etc on it . . .

[BIL]

I never bothered with the Anniversary Collection's version of AC Contra - partially because I already had the ACA one, but mostly because I'd been playing the hell out of it all week. Only picked up the M2 collection because I got sick of waiting on an ACA Super Contra. That game seems to play great, those missing voice samples aside (what a weird omission).

TBH, my main issue with both the Contra and CV sets isn't their performance, but their completeness. Lots of missing obscurities (FDS? MSX?), and a few heavy hitters too - a proper emulation of X68k Dracula would've been a killer draw, with how inaccurate the PS1 conversion is.

Doesn't have that Alpha/Omega completeness of M2's later AGES 2500 PS2 discs (Fantasy Zone, Wonder Boy, Phantasy Star). Still very fond of both packs though, the games I've tried play perfectly, and it's a lot easier capturing replays off PS4 than my old consoles.

[Sengoku Strider]

TBH, my main issue with both the Contra and CV sets isn't their performance, but their completeness. Lots of missing obscurities (FDS? MSX?), and a few heavy hitters too - a proper emulation of X68k Dracula would've been a killer draw, with how inaccurate the PS1 conversion is.

There was talk that Konami were very happy with the collection's performance and were looking at a second one. The X68k game would be a shoo-in for that. I understand why they skipped the MSX2 version, it would be a bunch of work for a kinda meh game, but it might merit an inclusion in a later edition. At least with Castlevania Adventure they could justify it as work toward getting Belmont's Revenge on there, which is one of the peaks of the series.

If they did a second 8 game collection with:

X68k Akumajou Dracula
Castlevania: The Adventure Rebirth
Rondo of Blood
Symphony of the Night
Circle of the Moon
Harmony of Dissonance
Aria of Sorrow
Castlevania: Encore of the Night, for some variety

That would be amazing, with not a bad game in the bunch. They already have a Rondo/SOTN bundle out there, but it's apparently not super well emulated, and it's not on Switch. I'd love it if they did the DS trilogy, as I've only played the first & never finished it. But even Wii U couldn't quite get the DS experience right, even though with its two screens + touch screen it had more of a fighting chance of pulling it off than any current console does. So I'd understand if they just punted on those.

But if they did give it a go, they'd have material for a 3rd collection:

PSP Rondo of Blood Remake
Castlevania Legends
Dawn of Sorrow
Portrait of Ruin
Order of Ecclesia
Vampire Killer
Haunted Castle
SNES Dracula X

Though there are some meh games in that set. This collection would need a headliner (though I actually thought the PSP Rondo played better than the original), so I'd understand if they did something like splitting up Rondo & Symphony between the two & moving one of Haunted Castle or Legends over to the other one.

[XtraSmiley]

If anyone here is fortunate enough to get a PS5, if you could test run your shmups and make sure they're all working... well, it would be nice to let us know.
That thing is supposed to be pretty compatible, but I don't know if a lot of people are going to be testing games as niche as these.

So these games work, but zero help on the loading and saving. The SSD doesn't seem to make a difference. Also, not sure if it's all games yet (seems to be so far) but I don't get rumble with the PS5 controller on PS4 games.

Seems to work so far:

Ketsui (Japanese disc)
Battle Gaerega (US disc)
Shikhondo (Asian region disc)
Assault Suit Leynos (US disc)

Does not work so far:
None yet

I'll try more games later, too busy trying to beat Astro Bot!

[BIL]

Assault Suit Leynos (great game for $4, you should try it!)

Fuckin word. Badass heavy machine sidescrolling. RIP Dracue, they did a beloved old trilogy proud with that one. ;-;7

WHITE-HOT JET BLAST

Spoiler

Stings and burns just like the ol' days!

[XtraSmiley]

Assault Suit Leynos (great game for $4, you should try it!)

Fuckin word. Badass heavy machine sidescrolling. RIP Dracue, they did a beloved old trilogy proud with that one. ;-;7

WHITE-HOT JET BLAST

Spoiler

Stings and burns just like the ol' days!

Damn, if Dracue is gone, then so are hopes for this game working...

See my update. Damn.

[Dawn111]

It would be so weird if R-Type Final 2 will be released on both Xbox One and Series X, as well as the PS4, but not the PS5, considering that the
game will be released in 2021, and PS5 will mostly be present in that year. Personally, I'd love to see the remake of Einhander on the PS4/PS5.

[XtraSmiley]

It would be so weird if R-Type Final 2 will be released on both Xbox One and Series X, as well as the PS4, but not the PS5, considering that the
game will be released in 2021, and PS5 will mostly be present in that year. Personally, I'd love to see the remake of Einhander on the PS4/PS5.

Yes, I agree all around, especially on your Einhander remark!

[BIL]

Damn, if Dracue is gone, then so are hopes for this game working...

See my update. Damn.

Sorry to hear. D: This is why my house is infested with old consoles. ;3

[XtraSmiley]

OK, some good news. It seems that putting your PS5 in rest mode resulted in a glitch where it would not allow PS4 games to access the network, thus blocking games that needed that feature to advance. ASL DOES work, once they patched the PS5 and I rebooted.

So, I'll update. It does work!

[Sumez]

I'm assuming the backwards compatibility is achieved via emulation. Could this mean extra input lag?

A little late for this post, but...

Although it is often the case, I don't really see much reason that "emulation" on its own should be a heavy cause of input lag. What is true, however, is that we often see that, due to the extra layers of abstraction and the added frameworks of polling controls via one system while also emulating another system doing the same thing. So if there is already some lag inherent in the system being emulated, that means you'll get both that lag and the lag inherent in the system running the emulator, unless you're doing tricks like the runahead thing, or some clever HLE systems.
Also, what qualifies as "emulation" is probably not as clear cut when talking support of games that only goes back one generation. I'm sure some of the PS4's interface systems need to be emulated, but it's not like the console's CPU is being entirely emulated by software running on the PS5, that's just not feasible.

Ultimately, I think what matters is that the systems that are in place to run a PS4 game on a PS5 are just as likely to cause extra lag as a typical emulator would, for the same reasons (essentially: the same games are running on a different platform). But there's also perfectly good reason to assume that it won't. It seems like a lot of PS4 games are being patched especially for PS5 support, so in those cases I guess it's completely the same as running a "native" PS5 program. And in that context I guess it's worth looking at whether the PS5 has more native input lag than the PS4.

I'll just be waiting for the cold hard numbers before I make any more assumptions. Or maybe they are already out there?

[Frenetic]

As per the forum rules: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=779

"Treat others respectfully as individuals, regardless of perceived identity and/or beliefs."

The reported post that violated the rule has been removed as well as the following posts that refer to it.

[BIL]

OK, some good news. It seems that putting your PS5 in rest mode resulted in a glitch where it would not allow PS4 games to access the network, thus blocking games that needed that feature to advance. ASL DOES work, once they patched the PS5 and I rebooted.

So, I'll update. It does work!

Good to hear. Leynos is a game that needs playing.