So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
xxx1993

So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by xxx1993 »

I’m sure somebody asked a similar question like this on the main board, but talking about rail shooters instead of run and gun games. But games like Contra, Metal Slug, Gunstar Heroes, Wolf Fang, Assault Suit Leynos, Assault Suits Valken, Ranger-X, Wolf Fang, Dolphin Blue, Armored Hunter Gunhound EX, Gigantic Army, Steel Strider, Mechblaze, Super Cyborg, Blazing Chrome, Hardcore Mecha... Why aren’t they considered shmups?
Last edited by xxx1993 on Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kitten
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by kitten »

they're played quite differently? managing a jump and obeying a sense of gravity, being able to control the rate of scrolling, dealing with multi-directional scrolling and platforming - are these not enough to constitute a different genre? if contra is a shmup, why not rockman, too? at some point, i do think genre matters. while there are games that blur the line a little bit (top-down, multi-directional scrollers like twinkle tale, jackal, neo contra, kiki kaikai, the firemen, granada, etc. are usually considered shmups of sorts but kind of become their own things), i think regular ol' famicom contra is distinctly "not a shmup" despite its similar sensibilities and appeal.
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by Stevens »

Kitten has answered this, but if it's only one factor I would say auto scrolling vs. user controlled scrolling.

That makes In the Hunt a run n gun:)
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by copy-paster »

Kaitei Daisensou is very much a shmup.
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by Stevens »

Ooh excellent! I don't start discussions very often:)

Two questions then -

Is there another game that is considered a shmup where the player controls the scrolling? I honestly don't know of any.

Considering then if every other game with player scrolling is a run n' gun, why is In the Hunt mechanically speaking the exception to this rule?
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by copy-paster »

Armed Police Unit Gallop: scroll faster by pressing right button and slow down by press left button, Battle Formula do this as well. Top-down shooters like Gundhara also counts.
Considering then if every other game with player scrolling is a run n' gun, why is In the Hunt mechanically speaking the exception to this rule?
Mostly it's the jump mechanic that's quite game changer.
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by Sumez »

Top down run'n'guns definitely have more in common with traditional shmups than a platforming run'n'gun, that's for sure. It's all a sliding scale based on what mechanics you think are essential/detrimental to the "core" experience. Some might argue that R-Type/Gradius style shooters with lots of (typically horizontal) terrain navigation are worthy of their own genre too - they are definitely very different from the ones that always let you move and dodge freely.

Then there's the rare example of platforming run'n'guns with actual forced scrolling, like Atomic Runner. :P
xxx1993

Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by xxx1993 »

So, do Commando, Ikari Warriors, Jackal, and Guerrilla War count?
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by BIL »

xxx1993 wrote:So, do Commando, Ikari Warriors, Jackal, and Guerrilla War count?
All of those games, going back to at least Taito's Front Line - topdown push-scrolling run/guns - are considered on-topic for Shmups discussion. Granada's had a HS thread for a decade now. The Kiki Kaikais are in there too.

Sometimes I toy with the notion of a thread for The Firemen (SFC) - it's every bit the topdown seek/destroy Granada is. A rare 16bit console original action game that's good to play for score, too! Or rather ranking. Try getting the "Fighter of Legend" rank, you'll be sporting an enviable Tom Selleck fireman stache before the day is done. Image

I wouldn't, though. Even though you seek/destroy from start to finish, the game feels like more of an "action/adventure" affair than something as aggressively shooty as Granada, SFC Kiki or MD Twinkle Tale.

It's about feels. Image

Guerrilla War is blatantly The Real Ikari III and of course should be given the same allowance. A far more interesting question is, should the mediocre topdown beat 'em up going by the blatantly misleading title "Ikari III" be Considered A Shump, too? :wink: It's not even a fuckin Ikari imho. :O
xxx1993

Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by xxx1993 »

At least the NES port of Ikari III is a pretty fun game.
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

Forced scrolling definitely isn't necessary. If, say, Radiant Silvergun had only boss encounters everybody would still call it a "shmup".
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by Sumez »

RSG has non-boss sections?
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

It does. I should have added "no scroll" to the boss encounters phrase, though, since some of them indeed make use of the forced scrolling for something else than the mere cosmetics.
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by BIL »

xxx1993 wrote:At least the NES port of Ikari III is a pretty fun game.
Yeah it's dramatically better. All of the FC conversions that team handled (see also Guevara and Datsugoku) play great.
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by xxx1993 »

Though the less said about the first two Ikari Warriors games on the NES, the better.
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by BIL »

Indeed, those two were by infamous shitbirds Micronics. :[ They're god-awful conversions through and through. I actually considered picking them up just for their nice FC boxarts, but sanity prevailed. Arcade Archives is the only way to go for Ikari and Dogosoken alike.

The rocketing jump in quality from FC Ikari I/II to Ikari III/Guevara can also be seen in Famicom 1942 vs 1943, the latter handled by Capcom themselves. Shame how many great licenses Micronics managed to gobble up before - apparently - somebody got tired of their shit.
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by Turrican »

Is this thread the reason for the off topic / other gaming split?
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by Sumez »

No. Better do yourself a favor, and don't dig any further :D
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by Turrican »

It's that bad, huh? :lol:
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xxx1993

Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by xxx1993 »

Should Sin & Punishment be considered a run and gun series? Because I see people compare it to Contra due to it being from the same team as Contra III: The Alien Wars...
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by Sir Ilpalazzo »

Contra 3 (and other SNES Konami games) aren't actually really from the teams that went on to form Treasure; that's just a common misconception. I think the Konami games with the greatest concentration of future Treasure staffers are, like, the GB Castlevanias and maybe NES Bucky O'Hare.

I wouldn't put Contra and Sin and Punishment the same label just because, on a fundamental level, they don't play very similarly. Contra games are mostly sidescrolling platformers with major emphasis on projectile attacks, and Sin and Punishment games are gallery shooters with sidescroller-like movement but very different combat (with focus on attacking enemies who exist in a different plane than you).
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by xxx1993 »

I see... So why do people keep comparing Sin & Punishment to Contra III: The Alien Wars, then? Not helping much is that the tutorial stage in Star Successor has direct references to Contra.
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by opt2not »

Is KiKi KaiKai a run-n-gun, or a shmup? Wikipedia says it's a shoot-em-up...
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Run 'n Guns is a term for 2D sidescrolling platformers like Contra or Sunset Riders, where jumping is how you navigate levels or avoid attacks and where (usually) gravity is a game mechanic/hazard to contend with.

KiKi KaiKai/Pocky & Rocky are top down shmups, ones that do not have autoscrolling but rather feature scroll at your-own-pace style scrolling (with a time limit to prevent dawdling). Other shmups of this style include Jackal, Outzone, FixEight, and Nex Machina.

Games like Smash TV or Monolith where each area is a single room are also shmups, ones where each fight takes place in a single room rather than having smooth scrolling through a level.
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by kitten »

yeah, i usually call games like kiki kaikai "top down shooters." some games bend or stretch genre boundaries and sometimes sub-classifications are useful. i like bil's terminology of "seek 'n destroy" for stuff like the firemen, granada, metal stoker, etc. genres are meant to classify stuff for convenience, what one strictly belongs to doesn't necessarily really matter that much so long as you're able to communicate what it is.
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by BIL »

xxx1993 wrote:I see... So why do people keep comparing Sin & Punishment to Contra III: The Alien Wars, then? Not helping much is that the tutorial stage in Star Successor has direct references to Contra.
There is a spiritual through-line from FC Bucky O'Hare to Contra III to Alien Soldier to S&P, as setpieces and minibosses gained favour over straight run/gunning. (lately, I've thought of Sunset Riders as The Other Contra III, it hewing nearer to the original's action/platforming than Super, Spirits, Hard Corps or Shin)

But as far as S&P actually plays, I'd suggest Wild Guns' on-foot shooting gallery via Panzer Dragoon's 3D rail shooter. Among sidescrollers, Alien Soldier is nearer on the Mid-90s Miniboss & Setpiece Blitzkrieg Scale™, and has far more in common mechanically. Double-jump, i-frame dodge, a close-up slash that cancels/reflects, triggered by double-tapping... also, the juxtaposition of generous HP with a harshly demanding Max HP bonus. None of this remotely applies to Contra III. (all but the HP describes Wild Guns)

TLDR: S&P is like Panzer Dragoon starring the Wild Guns after snorting a monstrous line of Alien Soldier's miniboss/setpiece blitzkrieg crank, which is the weapons-grade version of Contra III's Jolt cola. /obligatory Star Blade and Cabal nods
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by xxx1993 »

Ah. I'm a fan of both Contra and Sin and Punishment anyway. I still hope one day Treasure gets off their lazy butts and finally makes Sin and Punishment 3, especially since this year marks the 20th anniversary of the franchise, not to mention Star Successor ended on a bit of a cliffhanger if you beat the game using both Isa and Kachi.
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by Turrican »

Long time ago they were averse to the very concept of direct sequel...
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xxx1993

Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by xxx1993 »

Used to be. But they already changed that with Silpheed: The Lost Planet, Advance Guardian Heroes, Gunstar Super Heroes, Gradius V, Bangai-O Spirits and now Sin & Punishment: Star Successor. And Ikaruga as well, if you think it's a sequel to Radiant Silvergun.
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Re: So why aren't run and gun games not considered shmups?

Post by Turrican »

xxx1993 wrote:Used to be. But they already changed that with Silpheed: The Lost Planet, Advance Guardian Heroes, Gunstar Super Heroes, Gradius V, Bangai-O Spirits and now Sin & Punishment: Star Successor. And Ikaruga as well, if you think it's a sequel to Radiant Silvergun.
Well, Silpheed as well as Gradius V are more their "take" on a external ip than "sequels". But of course you're right that they spammed sequels of everything like everyone else at some point.
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