What are peoples views on Switch Vs PS4 to collect some of the recent physical and limited releases for (I don't have Xbox One).
Looking to pick some up and I'm leaning towards the Switch but if anyone has some good comparisons or views on this then please do share.
Having never played Battle Garegga before I was really interested in that PS4 release but dang the box set is expensive now gotta be quick off the mark on these things.
I don't know why I'm surprised though as this isn't really anything new or just realted to Shmup collecting these days and even the cost of PCBS for less 'desirable' titles has gone pretty crazy since I last seriously looked about 10 years ago.
WelshMegalodon wrote:Both of those run just fine in MAME 0.222, pal. Maybe the problem is your shit-tier hardware.
I'd say it's mostly down to preference, I don't imagine any old shmups looking worse on the Switch. You do have the flip grip for tate games if you're fine with playing in portable mode, which is an added advantage.
Too many limited runs these days for sure. They cater to scalpers and are quickly becoming impossible to keep a heads up on.
Something to keep in mind is that Switch versions will generally have another frame or two of lag. M2 has been doing miracle work and ESPRaDe still felt pretty tight on Switch, though. Regarding prices, Switch titles don't seem to drop in price much and I wouldn't expect that to change while this generation goes on while PS4 games generally can be had for cheap after a couple of years. These general rules probably don't apply to rare, collectible, Japan-only shmup releases, though.
Also, maybe post this in the actual shmup forum? I'm here for the hardware chitchat and also love shmups, but maybe you'd get some more perspectives over there.
Oops yes didn’t actually mean to post in the hardware section that was a mistake by me. Can I move it or can that only be done by a Moderator?
Thanks for the replies. I’ll probably go for the switch and i hadn’t seen the flip grips. Shame they are being sold for inflated prices in the UK. I had a quick look and it doesn’t seem that there are any official European distributors? If I can’t get one for a sensible price I suppose I could fashion my own one using a couple of ‘rails’ out of the joycon straps that get sold for a few pounds in the second hand game stores.
WelshMegalodon wrote:Both of those run just fine in MAME 0.222, pal. Maybe the problem is your shit-tier hardware.
The authentic JPN Garegga PS4 limited box set doesn't actually include a physical disk, but the Korean and Limited Run Games (full english menus) does.
"I've had quite a few pcbs of Fire Shark over time, and none of them cost me over £30 - so it won't break the bank by any standards." ~Malc
The authentic JPN Garegga PS4 limited box set doesn't actually include a physical disk, but the Korean and Limited Run Games (full english menus) does.
Yeah it’s the limited run version that was from memory $125 but second hand people are asking for £180 on eBay, which I know should be taken with a pinch of salt but is still like $230.
Edit: for that price I’d rather get the pc engine mini multi tap and extra controller and still have some change!
WelshMegalodon wrote:Both of those run just fine in MAME 0.222, pal. Maybe the problem is your shit-tier hardware.
The authentic JPN Garegga PS4 limited box set doesn't actually include a physical disk, but the Korean and Limited Run Games (full english menus) does.
But here in the picture, it is shown that the disc is included
Yes, the soundtrack CD disc. There is no game disc in the Japanese set pictured.
I generally go for PS4, as it feels like the more complete collection of physical releases this generation. Ketsui and Garegga as exclusives are too key to miss out on. All of the shumps with physical releases on Switch are also on PS4, and some are much better on PS4 like Raiden V which is a blurry mess on Switch.
Formerly known as 8 1/2. I return on my second credit!
I've found the Switch portable mode to be surprisingly useful for shmup learning. Being a busy family man and all that, sometimes I can load up a training mode or save state when I just get a few minutes spare time and practice learning a stage or boss. The little analogue nub is actually not that bad for this purpose and hori makes a d pad control that attaches for portable mode. It might not be my first choice for doing full runs, but its great for going into the shmup "lab" so to speak.
I have to say Tate mode on switch vertical games hasn't really been a factor for me. Since the portable mode is all about ease of use, I'd rather just fire up Gain Ground and play with the screen the intended way in hand held mode.
It sounds like you're looking more from a collecting standpoint, so not sure if that's helpful. Also keep in mind that there are some essential games on Switch that are digital only and are not on PS4. Games like Crimzon Clover (out soon I think) and Rolling Gunner as well as the M2 Sega Ages series. Somebody better informed than me might be able to point out if Crimzon Clover will get a physical copy?
Jonpachi wrote:All of the shumps with physical releases on Switch are also on PS4, and some are much better on PS4 like Raiden V which is a blurry mess on Switch.
I'd switch (ha) Raiden V out with Caladrius Blaze. I remember Raiden V being reasonably and surprsingly sharp, but much lower-poly and with less graphical smoothness. Meanwhile, Caladrius was genuinely (and significantly) blurrier than PS4.
I too prefer PS4 over Switch if only for their perfomance. If it weren't digital-only these days, I'd more or less just stick with PC though.
Switch gets the Flip Grip for tate mode anywhere, that's kind of a game changer.
I personally go for Switch stuff because I find the system itself more fun to collect for (love those little cases) and more pleasurable to use - so easy to quickly get the system on and jump into a game. Plus, Nintendo fans have a ton of brand loyalty, I think there are a lot more of them going for complete collections than with Sony stuff. I have a feeling these games may hold their value better than their PS4 counterparts for that reason. Although I could be way off on that, as the aftermarket audience for these games is both knowledgeable & picky, and the lag could make the PS4 stuff the desirable versions. I'll be curious to see if the new more powerful Switch model next year has any effect on that issue.
People are are saying the switch is inherently laggy, but I don't usually see definitive side by side tests that show it's laggier on a specific title compared to PS4. A lot of switch games are very responsive. Games like Sonic Mania and Mega Man 11 on switch have almost no input lag. Esprade for example is supposed to be 4 frames when playing on wireless. And some people say the switch USB lag when playing wired got patched out? Also 8bitdo now has a wireless moddable joystick for switch that runs around 100 dollars. So you can play on stick without running through USB if you really want to be paranoid about that 1 extra frame.
Raiden Fighters Aces back on 360 is 3 frames and this game was actually ported over instead of emulated in order to save that extra frame. So by comparison Esprade at 4 frames on switch to me is about as good as you can expect for a game running via emulation on console. Has anyone actually tested the ps4 version at only 3 frames?
I am fairly sensitive to input lag, and I've never noticed switch input lag other than in one of the Psykio ports. Even then, it was far from being the difference in a given run.
If you are comparing CRTs to LCDs then the switch will come out behind, but playing on the swtich feels the same as any other modern screen to me.
To Far Away Times wrote:I am fairly sensitive to input lag, and I've never noticed switch input lag other than in one of the Psykio ports. Even then, it was far from being the difference in a given run.
If you are comparing CRTs to LCDs then the switch will come out behind, but playing on the swtich feels the same as any other modern screen to me.
Incidentally, which Psikyo port? And have you played the others for comparison? I ask because I’m not super sensitive to lag, but watching all these testing videos has me second-guessing everything.
Just to chime in as I recently did a lag test of a dozen plus controllers on Switch. Once I was done I was curious to do a direct comparison of a game to the PS4. I tested EspRade using an F500 Elite shell that I had wired into the Brooke universal board. Tested both wired and wireless (it’s the newer board with both). The switch was almost exactly 2 frames behind the PS4. 5 frames vs 3. I measured at 240fps down to a quarter frame. The universal board doesn’t connect to the switch quite as fast as a joycon or some others I tested, so that 5 frames became closer to 4 using some faster controllers. Which is plenty good performance for me. And I’ve yet to do any extensive PS4 testing as I’m sure it’s direct Bluetooth would be sub 3 frames on this game given the universal board was right at 3. But just some useful info for anyone here interested since I saw the question asked. I’m not a stickler on input delay and don’t even have much issue playing my mini consoles at several frames of delay. I adjust to it fairly enough. But I have the setup to test them so I do. For reference my display adds 10ms, or 14ms if you like measuring at center.
The 8bitdo M30 2.4 Hz was higher than I expected. When I tried pressing buttons at the same time in fighting game (not a conclusive test, but results seemed somewhat consistent between controllers), it seemed to be one of the more responsive controllers, along with the hori stick. However, I was also under the impression that having another 2.4G device or a cell phone near it causes interference (it also seems to have less responsive inputs when low on battery). I was also under the impression that the Pro Controller was more responsive than the joycons, though that may have changed after an update. Mayflash joysticks used to be slower in the input department and seem to have improved quite a bit after than Genesis Mini update.
BrianC wrote:The 8bitdo M30 2.4 Hz was higher than I expected. When I tried pressing buttons at the same time in fighting game (not a conclusive test, but results seemed somewhat consistent between controllers), it seemed to be one of the more responsive controllers, along with the hori stick. However, I was also under the impression that having another 2.4G device or a cell phone near it causes interference (it also seems to have less responsive inputs when low on battery). I was also under the impression that the Pro Controller was more responsive than the joycons, though that may have changed after an update. Mayflash joysticks used to be slower in the input department and seem to have improved quite a bit after than Genesis Mini update.
The M30 2.4 was very responsive one of the better ones... it was the M30 Bluetooth that was much slower. But the 2.4g is still wired into the USB port, so even though it's fast it incurs the added delay of the USB port on the switch. Far as the Pro Controllers they've always tested slow for me, I've not ever had one or the official test very fast. The official one isn't bad vs the Joycon we are talking half a frame, but most of the other cheap 3rd party ones I've tested have been worse. I just wouldn't use the Pro
wired that's where it does poorly. I doubt many people use one wired anyway.
Sengoku Strider wrote:Switch gets the Flip Grip for tate mode anywhere, that's kind of a game changer.
The Flip Grip is pretty cool. But what do you do for control? Dpad modded Joy Con? The stock (non) dpad on the Joy Cons really grind my grundle. Makes most arcade games unplayable for me. I have the Hori dpad joycon but it lack wireless, which the flip grip requires.
Usually I just get arcade stuff on PS4 or PC so I can use one of my arcade sticks.
If I do get a Switch game then I try to go physical as the cards seem likely to hold some value in the future.
BrianC wrote:The 8bitdo M30 2.4 Hz was higher than I expected. When I tried pressing buttons at the same time in fighting game (not a conclusive test, but results seemed somewhat consistent between controllers), it seemed to be one of the more responsive controllers, along with the hori stick. However, I was also under the impression that having another 2.4G device or a cell phone near it causes interference (it also seems to have less responsive inputs when low on battery). I was also under the impression that the Pro Controller was more responsive than the joycons, though that may have changed after an update. Mayflash joysticks used to be slower in the input department and seem to have improved quite a bit after than Genesis Mini update.
The M30 2.4 was very responsive one of the better ones... it was the M30 Bluetooth that was much slower. But the 2.4g is still wired into the USB port, so even though it's fast it incurs the added delay of the USB port on the switch. Far as the Pro Controllers they've always tested slow for me, I've not ever had one or the official test very fast. The official one isn't bad vs the Joycon we are talking half a frame, but most of the other cheap 3rd party ones I've tested have been worse. I just wouldn't use the Pro
wired that's where it does poorly. I doubt many people use one wired anyway.
I watched the controller lag comparison vid you did, that was good stuff. I own a pro controller, RAP V and Retrobit Saturn controller. Those all came out pretty well in that test, but in practice I stick with the Retrobit Saturn. Even though technically it's microscopically slower than the pro, it has the straight up GAWD dpad which gives it the edge in performance. The ABC buttons have a little more of a raised edge to them than the original too, which helps with tactile orientation. I honestly think it feels slightly better than my OG Japanese Saturn pad nearly across the board.
scrilla4rella wrote:
Sengoku Strider wrote:Switch gets the Flip Grip for tate mode anywhere, that's kind of a game changer.
The Flip Grip is pretty cool. But what do you do for control? Dpad modded Joy Con? The stock (non) dpad on the Joy Cons really grind my grundle. Makes most arcade games unplayable for me. I have the Hori dpad joycon but it lack wireless, which the flip grip requires.
In my tests the Retrobit Saturn BT version was smokin it had the fastest results next to the joycon. It surprised me even. The only thing I’d watch out for is there may be a quality difference between some models. Mark_MSX from the forums here just pad hacked one since it performs well, but on his black Saturn model he said the Dpad bottoms out. The only BT model I’ve tried is the clear blue Genesis pad. They don’t all have the same external shape so although parts are likely the same the mold shape does have an effect on how the pad and buttons feel to use. I also have the white 2.4g Saturn model and while both are fine they don’t feel exactly the same to use.
Great video ShmupJunkie. I hadn't seen this, and it's cool to see someone really testing this stuff out. It seems the idea that the Switch is inherently laggy on all games has been overblown. For those who really want to be a stickler it's more about controller and monitor options and the individual game and how it was ported. I'd recommend checking out the Hori Pokken pad for switch in addition to the various other retro pads. Very nice d pad on it, and it can be picked up for around 10 or 12 bucks. Also I'd recommend no one play on the pro controller ever. Either the analogue or the d pad absolutely suck for shmups. Even the little nub on the joy con is better. Save that sh-t for Mario Odyssey lol
It looks like Esprade really is a frame faster on PS4. You think it might even have only 2 frames of delay? If the port is running under emulation and that's true, then it's pretty impressive on M2's part. What black magic is this?
I'd put myself in the somewhat sensitive to input lag category. Like at 4 to 5 frames or so I can barely notice it if I focus on it. 6 and above I can definitely start to notice it. That's where I would maybe avoid that port if going for a clear or high score. But discerning the difference between the same game playing at 3 frames vs 4 frames delay? There's absolutely no way for me.
Probably the only game I really felt held back by lag on Switch was X Multiply. Haven't seen any tests on this. It could also be something about the framerate or input response making the game feel inconsistent. For whatever reason this game just did not feel good to me.
Coming back to the topic, outside of some potentially dodgy ports, input lag on PS4 vs Switch is not a determining factor on which versions to collect. The world record holder for most routes on Darius Gaiden arcade version is at the top of the Switch leaderboards as well, and all of his scores on there are near setting new WR's. Also you might be surprised how fast some of the bullets in Gaiden get on a 1 life run at high rank. Ok not loop 2 Psikyo fast but still. The idea that a game that runs with a couple frames of lag compared to PCB will hold back an expert player from their potential is kind of ridiculous.
Rastan78 wrote:Great video ShmupJunkie. I hadn't seen this, and it's cool to see someone really testing this stuff out. It seems the idea that the Switch is inherently laggy on all games has been overblown. For those who really want to be a stickler it's more about controller and monitor options and the individual game and how it was ported. I'd recommend checking out the Hori Pokken pad for switch in addition to the various other retro pads. Very nice d pad on it, and it can be picked up for around 10 or 12 bucks. Also I'd recommend no one play on the pro controller ever. Either the analogue or the d pad absolutely suck for shmups. Even the little nub on the joy con is better. Save that sh-t for Mario Odyssey lol
It looks like Esprade really is a frame faster on PS4. You think it might even have only 2 frames of delay? If the port is running under emulation and that's true, then it's pretty impressive on M2's part. What black magic is this?
I'd put myself in the somewhat sensitive to input lag category. Like at 4 to 5 frames or so I can barely notice it if I focus on it. 6 and above I can definitely start to notice it. That's where I would maybe avoid that port if going for a clear or high score. But discerning the difference between the same game playing at 3 frames vs 4 frames delay? There's absolutely no way for me.
Probably the only game I really felt held back by lag on Switch was X Multiply. Haven't seen any tests on this. It could also be something about the framerate or input response making the game feel inconsistent. For whatever reason this game just did not feel good to me.
Coming back to the topic, outside of some potentially dodgy ports, input lag on PS4 vs Switch is not a determining factor on which versions to collect. The world record holder for most routes on Darius Gaiden arcade version is at the top of the Switch leaderboards as well, and all of his scores on there are near setting new WR's. Also you might be surprised how fast some of the bullets in Gaiden get on a 1 life run at high rank. Ok not loop 2 Psikyo fast but still. The idea that a game that runs with a couple frames of lag compared to PCB will hold back an expert player from their potential is kind of ridiculous.
I only tested Esprade using the universal board, but there was definitely a clear 2 frame difference between the PS4 and Switch. I could also test Ikaruga at some point, as that actually runs quite fast on the Switch... if my PS4 copy from Nicalis would ever show up haha. But in general I am in the same camp with input lag. I get it, I'm sensitive to it, I can usually notice it... it just doesn't bug me as much as others. Some pros like Mark can't stand it and at his impressive skill level, I'm in no position to question his perspective as it's legitimate. To each their own if it really bothers them. They then have to jump through more hoops to play the game to their preference. I'm glad I can grab a mini console with their several frames and still take it on the road and enjoy it. So I'll choose a console based on convenience and games, not necessarily input delay.
The only time I take issue is when folks who really don't have much skill or practice in a game start blaming things like lag and controllers for not being able to play well... to your point of the Darius Gaiden records. They're better off spending more time enjoying and improving at the game than blaming their lack of skill in it on something else. Most likely their game wouldn't be that much improved if the input delay were removed. It's the old saying we had road racing on open tracks back in the day when people spent all their time modding their cars to be faster. Fix the nut behind the wheel first
I can see where it is distracting for a really experienced player, especially if they are switching over from arcade hardware on CRT. It could be the distraction of noticing a slight delay making you lose concentration as much as taking hits that were actually caused by it. Just that sense that something is off breaking you out of the mythical "zone."
From a beginner perspective approaching the genre I think execution seems way more important at first than it really is. Now that I'm more at intermediate level (I've done the 1st loop of Gunbird 2, but didnt even mess with the 2nd) I'd say manual dexterity and precise inputs are important, but having good routes perfectly memorized to where you know them in your sleep and learning all the nuances of the game are 90 percent of it. Shmups are a lot more like puzzle games in a way than reactive skill tests.
Usually watching a real pro makes a game look so easy, because they are never putting themselves in an unsafe situation where they have to rely on pure dexterity to get through. Of course this might create a false illusion that they have some type of superhuman skill set when it comes to reactions and dodging.
Granted certain games will put your elite joystick wiggling skills to the test more than others.
If the points of difference between a game like Esprade are just input lag and portable play I'd go with the portable option. Though one thing I never hear brought up or compared is leaderboard activity. I know this might not sound like much to a lot of people, but having stacked leaderboards on a port is pretty nice. With M2 ports the replay viewing function is cool. I remember paying some bucks for importing Insanity DVDs back in the day just to see high level replays .(I think I have my Raiden one around somewhere still.)
With Gaiden on Switch you have replays for some of the best runs you'll ever find but also other top runs. Gaiden has a fair amount of randomness as in you can get a last boss final attack pattern that has 3 completely different forms. So I was able to reference different players approach to all of them even though they won't all show up in a single replay.
Now I'm in the top 20 or so for my route, and it's very cool to have a stacked leaderboard above me. Its not just a few people way out in front. Its 15 people who are maybe a few 100 thousand above each other. So now I'm thinking top 10. Then I'll be thinking top 5, which is maybe unrealistic lol. Either way it's adding to the fun I'm having learning the game. Meanwhile our leaderboard doesn't have separations for the different routes even. Which is fine bc there probably aren't enough scores in the less played routes to justify splitting it up.
I haven't seen the leaderboards on PS4, but I could imagine a lot of arcade heads in Japan buying the port as soon as it came out and putting up a score. But the PS4 version came out way later, so it might be a little more sparse. Do they combine leaderboards on these ever? Does the online player base of a game really matter that much?
Sengoku Strider wrote:
I started a thread asking for advice on that one, but nobody seemed to have any suggestions. For now I'm using the joycon analog, which is actually solid. Not amazing, but solid.
My old school gamming buddy bought a modded joycon on Etsy with a nice dpad. He said it worked really well but sadly he passed away recently, so I didn't get a chance to try it. They look pretty solid. You can buy the kit on Amazon to DIY and save some cash.
I was really surprised by the NES emulator on Switch. It has low input lag. Colors are much better than Nintendo's previous emulators too. I wasn't a fan of the SP versions of games at first, but I found the NG one a good way to practice Jaquio. SNES results I have seen are very good too.
Jonpachi wrote:All of the shumps with physical releases on Switch are also on PS4, and some are much better on PS4 like Raiden V which is a blurry mess on Switch.
I'd switch (ha) Raiden V out with Caladrius Blaze. I remember Raiden V being reasonably and surprsingly sharp, but much lower-poly and with less graphical smoothness. Meanwhile, Caladrius was genuinely (and significantly) blurrier than PS4.
I too prefer PS4 over Switch if only for their perfomance. If it weren't digital-only these days, I'd more or less just stick with PC though.
If memory serves, you mentioned in your coverage of the Switch version of Raiden V that some odd color change choices were made, which makes bullets harder to see in some spots, and there's some weirdness in the audio, where the levels are not well balanced, and this issue is specific to the Switch port. It's like MOSS phoned it in for a quick cash grab, and didn't bother correcting those things. I haven't fired it up on the Switch in a while, but I'm curious if either issue has been addressed with an update.
BrianC wrote:I was really surprised by the NES emulator on Switch. It has low input lag. Colors are much better than Nintendo's previous emulators too. I wasn't a fan of the SP versions of games at first, but I found the NG one a good way to practice Jaquio. SNES results I have seen are very good too.
I was very impressed by these emulations too. And while the games are hit or miss, the good ones are really good. They even did interpolation so when you stretch the image to 4:3 you don't get uneven looking pixels and scrolling shimmer. This is something Arcade Archives and M2 need to get into doing themselves.
If I could change something I'd like the ability to turn off the border or at least have a decent selection of other borders. And a scanline filter that doesn't try to mimic the look of a composite connection. Oh and give us Gradius III for SNES while you're at it.
The PS4 seems like the natural option. I never bought the "consoles are dead" crap last time around but even then the amount of smaller scope software flooding out for the thing at this point is overwhelming, a lot of it physical.
gotta be quick off the mark on these things.
