shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:07 pm View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:44 pm 



Joined: 09 May 2020
Posts: 26
Setup:

- Crosspoint Ultra 88
- Model 2 [J] Saturn via RGBS cable
- CPS2 (HDMI mod) and Mister, both through HDMI->VGA box
- (2) CRT, JVC DT-V, JVC TM-H

I can get the Saturn video coming through fine and dandy directly into both CRTs: TM-H has S-Video direct via standard cable, both TM-H and DT-V have RGB input cards, good via Ebay RGBS cable.

Connecting the Saturn through the Crosspoint seems to totally mess up the sync with nondescript image on TM-H, "sync out of range" on the DT-V.

I have CPS2 and Mister set up in the same way, both through RGBHV, and both signals work perfectly through the Crosspoint. It's just the Saturn that gets corrupted via Crosspoint but is no problem going direct. Is it a resistor/capacitor issue on the cables? Does the Crosspoint do something to break the sync signal (one cable, not HV)? Is there a setting somewhere deep in the Crosspoint that needs a toggle? No issue with audio.

tldr: Saturn works OK direct into CRT, sync gets corrupted through Extron Crosspoint, other machines come through without issue. What's the deal?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:25 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 1859
How is sync wired in your Saturn's video cable? If it's pulling composite video for sync, that'd be why--Extron gear won't take any sync line that has video data. If you have an NTSC console, you need a cable that's wired to use the composite sync pin instead of composite video. If you have a PAL console, you'll need a cable with a sync stripper in it.

Whatever you do, do not connect a straight CSync cable for an NTSC console to a PAL console, because you'll be feeding the downstream device 9VDC instead of sync, which will certainly damage your equipment.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:51 pm 



Joined: 09 May 2020
Posts: 26
Yes indeed it's a Japan NTSC, no 9V PAL risk here.

I double checked the pins and pin-out I was using and as you say this cable seems to be taking composite video on the sync cable. Good to know the Extrons don't like it - I didn't see this info anywhere I scoured on the net. Doing a little more digging it seems it should be connected to pin 1.

Image

Anyway, one destroyed ebay cable down trying to bootstrap a fix, I'm waiting for some male plugs to wire my own. Is it still recommended to have the 220uF and 470Ohm on the CSync?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:54 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Mar 2018
Posts: 1361
emenelopee wrote:
Yes indeed it's a Japan NTSC, no 9V PAL risk here.

I double checked the pins and pin-out I was using and as you say this cable seems to be taking composite video on the sync cable. Good to know the Extrons don't like it - I didn't see this info anywhere I scoured on the net. Doing a little more digging it seems it should be connected to pin 1.

Image

Anyway, one destroyed ebay cable down trying to bootstrap a fix, I'm waiting for some male plugs to wire my own. Is it still recommended to have the 220uF and 470Ohm on the CSync?

the 470ohm resistor is NO if you're going into the extron

the cap is optional, only certain model 2s require it


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:06 am 


User avatar

Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 222
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
For what it's worth, I use 470 ohm resistors on my Saturn RGB cables and they work fine with my Extron switchers. If you're going to rewire the cable to use csync instead of composite, it couldn't hurt to try adding the resistor and see if it works. That way you'll still be able to use it on normal SCART equipment if needed. Keep in mind that no matter what your sync input level is, the Extron will output TTL level sync so your output cable should be attenuated if your monitor requires it.

I've never had to use a capacitor for the sync on any of my Saturns.

My experience with Ebay/Aliexpress SCART cables is that they're usually built for PAL consoles. Often, pin 1 on the Saturn connector is wired to the mode switching pin (pin 8 on the SCART side) and it's simple to rewire the SCART head for Csync.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:35 pm 



Joined: 09 Sep 2020
Posts: 3
I have a followup question if that's okay, because I'm fighting with trying to make a cable to go directly from a Saturn to the VGA input of an Extron RGB-HDMI 300A. I have a 470ohm resistor and a 220uF cap on the Sync line, but it's only going to pin 13, which I saw listed as both Horizontal Sync and Composite Sync on a diagram. I'm going to try removing the filter passives when I get a chance, but do I need to have the Saturn's sync running to both Horizontal and Vertical Sync, or does pin 13 work okay as a Composite Sync like that schematic I found says?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:46 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Mar 2018
Posts: 1361
If he's going to be making his own cable specifically for the extron, hopefully using BNC, why bother with giving a shit about "normal SCART equipment"

fuck SCART


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:58 pm 



Joined: 09 May 2020
Posts: 26
@maxtherabbit @matt no SCART here, all BNC or RCA.

On the subject of Crosspoint, does anyone have the Matrix software install files they could share? It's behind a registration wall with Extron and there's no response from their crack registration team.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:43 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 1941
Location: Denmark
What’s wrong with SCART? Besides being more convenient than several RCA leads?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:51 pm 



Joined: 09 May 2020
Posts: 26
None that I know. I just don't have any SCART sockets.

Though BNC to BNC is easier to get for a Crosspoint setup than making a BNC to SCART each time. I don't even know where to source SCART plugs in the US to make my own.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:54 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Mar 2018
Posts: 1361
emenelopee wrote:
@maxtherabbit @matt no SCART here, all BNC or RCA.

I like this guy


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:22 am 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 499
Location: Massachusetts, USA
maxtherabbit wrote:
If he's going to be making his own cable specifically for the extron, hopefully using BNC, why bother with giving a shit about "normal SCART equipment"

fuck SCART


So they could have the option to use an OSSC or something down the line
_________________
For CRTs, A/V gear, video games & more, be sure to check out my eBay!

Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:08 am 


User avatar

Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 222
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
maxtherabbit wrote:
If he's going to be making his own cable specifically for the extron, hopefully using BNC, why bother with giving a shit about "normal SCART equipment"

fuck SCART


Because despite the silly design of SCART, lots of people use it and read this forum for reference. I don't like SCART either and don't use it for anything except my OSSC input cable, but it's become a de facto standard.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:21 am 


User avatar

Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 222
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
HarveyFunbucks wrote:
I have a followup question if that's okay, because I'm fighting with trying to make a cable to go directly from a Saturn to the VGA input of an Extron RGB-HDMI 300A. I have a 470ohm resistor and a 220uF cap on the Sync line, but it's only going to pin 13, which I saw listed as both Horizontal Sync and Composite Sync on a diagram. I'm going to try removing the filter passives when I get a chance, but do I need to have the Saturn's sync running to both Horizontal and Vertical Sync, or does pin 13 work okay as a Composite Sync like that schematic I found says?


I'm not familiar with that particular device, but according to Extron's website (and other posts on this forum) it will take RGBS but only at 30khz and above. The Saturn may not work.

For devices that accept composite sync though VGA, connect it to pin 13 only.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:16 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Mar 2018
Posts: 1361
matt wrote:
but it's become a de facto standard.

it's time to leave that in the dustbin of history


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:19 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 1859
matt wrote:
but it's become a de facto standard.

Convention, not standard. :P


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:03 pm 



Joined: 09 Sep 2020
Posts: 3
matt wrote:
HarveyFunbucks wrote:
I have a followup question if that's okay, because I'm fighting with trying to make a cable to go directly from a Saturn to the VGA input of an Extron RGB-HDMI 300A. I have a 470ohm resistor and a 220uF cap on the Sync line, but it's only going to pin 13, which I saw listed as both Horizontal Sync and Composite Sync on a diagram. I'm going to try removing the filter passives when I get a chance, but do I need to have the Saturn's sync running to both Horizontal and Vertical Sync, or does pin 13 work okay as a Composite Sync like that schematic I found says?


I'm not familiar with that particular device, but according to Extron's website (and other posts on this forum) it will take RGBS but only at 30khz and above. The Saturn may not work.

For devices that accept composite sync though VGA, connect it to pin 13 only.


Oh, that's most likely the problem then, according to someone helping me out the output of the Saturn's RGB is 15Khz. So the Extron's probably a dead end for this then. Dang. Thanks for the info, at least I know that I need to find something else to use.
Edit: I was recommended trying a GBS8200, and it looks like that might work with a mod. I'll give that a shot.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:16 pm 



Joined: 09 May 2020
Posts: 26
@HarveyFunbucks:

15kHz = 240p, 480i (Saturn)
30kHz = 480p and above

Today I learned, the hard way, that not all 10-pin DINs are the same shape. Does the Saturn need a special plug?

Keep away from the ones on this page, they're the wrong shape and generally a terrible design, there's not even a way to connect to the sleeve:

https://www.cablesandconnectors.com/26500-26.HTM

I was hoping to confirm sync connection to pin 1 fix my Crosspoint issue but still no progress. I'm hoping these guys can come through with the right pieces:

https://console5.com/store/


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:31 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 222
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Yes, the console5 ones are good. A little complicated to assemble but they're high quality and fit well. They are too narrow for most individually shielded cable so you may have to use a small breakout box close to the console.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:09 pm 



Joined: 09 May 2020
Posts: 26
matt wrote:
Yes, the console5 ones are good. A little complicated to assemble but they're high quality and fit well. They are too narrow for most individually shielded cable so you may have to use a small breakout box close to the console.


I think that's the problem with the multi-pin DINs - the connection pins are so cramped in there. I actually snipped off the unnecessary ones so I could get in with the wires without losing it from the frustration.

In other news, SUCCESS! I jury-rigged a few bits from the cablesandconnectors.com plugs to make sure the pin 1 sync would work - initially my DT-V didn't accept the sync though my TM-H had no troubles. I unplugged and replugged, direct connected, added and removed BNC terminators, and back again, and it came to life for no apparent reason.

Conclusion, and to reiterate the first few responses: For Saturn RGB, Extron Crosspoints don't seem to like passing through pin 8 composite video as the sync signal. For NTSC, pin 1 is what's needed for external sync if you don't want to go through a sync stripper.

Many thx all.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:53 am 


User avatar

Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 222
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Yes, those mini-DINs are frustrating. My strategy has been to get a cheap Chinese SCART cable, cut it down to about 5" on the console end, and attach a VGA connector with a headphone jack. That way you don't have to solder to the small pins and, although the quality of the cabling is terrible it doesn't matter much because it's short. Then you can just use ready-made VGA to BNC cables.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:39 pm 



Joined: 09 May 2020
Posts: 26
matt wrote:
Yes, those mini-DINs are frustrating. My strategy has been to get a cheap Chinese SCART cable, cut it down to about 5" on the console end, and attach a VGA connector with a headphone jack. That way you don't have to solder to the small pins and, although the quality of the cabling is terrible it doesn't matter much because it's short. Then you can just use ready-made VGA to BNC cables.


That was also my plan but my cheap 10-pin DINs don't have all the pins wired which is why I'm having to go into the DIN itself. Unless you've found Saturn SCART cables that have wires on all the necessary pins?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Extron Crosspoint Sega Saturn
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:33 am 


User avatar

Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 222
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
SCART cables made for PAL consoles usually have all the necessary pins connected to make a Csync RGB cable, but the SCART head isn't wired properly for NTSC consoles. It's convenient, but not so much so that it's worth the trouble of hunting down PAL SCART cables if you already have the mini-DIN connector.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: highzeth, Jdurg, vol.2 and 12 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group