4th Annual Top 25 Shumps of All Time! - Results

[FraGMarE]

Gradius V's 80 minutes and neverending loops have to count for some height advantage. Gradius V is a goliath. Lords is Gate's awkward little brother who likes AD&D (and hair metal!).

HAHAH!!! Nice one. Gate of Thunder for the win.

I like Lords of Thunder as much as anybody, but Gate of Thunder takes it, imo. Next year, I want to campaign heavily for Gate of Thunder top 25 votes.

...let's get the games we want into the Top 25 List via conspiracy and collusion!

[BulletMagnet]

Abridged Edition

EoSD was created to introduce ZUN's new style, PCB was supposed to demonstrate ZUN's great creativity with shmup gameplay mechanics, but ends up becoming something like Devil May Cry 2 for me, and IN's gameplay features more than makes up for the mistake PCB left in its wake.

Well, first off methinks I ought to say that I've never played any of ZUN's pre-PC stuff, so I guess that whatever leap was made from there to EoSD is more or less lost on me, heh heh. Nor have I played any of the Devil May Cry games, though I have heard through the grapevine how 2 was perceived by most. As for EoSD on its own, I certainly like it enough (seeing as I bought it), and it's nice to play for a relatively "textbook" style (aside from using the POC, everything else is pretty standard stuff, albeit pretty good quality), but saying that PCB barely improved on it at all is a bit of a stretch: in the former game, as was said, about the only thing you could choose to focus on, aside from basic dodging and shooting, was dashing to the top of the screen for all the items. PCB keeps that element, but also adds in the cherry meter, which gives you the choice of taking a further risk by staying unfocused as much as possible. However, unlike in EoSD, which more or less required you to focus at least somewhat on scoring well, since the extends (aside from the occasional 1-ups) were score-based, PCB left the choice completely up to you whether or not to deal with it, since the extend rate is entirely item-based, and isn't affected by score at all. On a more minor note, the characters' focused attacks were more unique than in EoSD and had to be used more strategically, the presentation was greatly improved (IN's presentation was better than PCB's too, but it wasn't nearly as big of a leap as PCB was over EoSD), and there was more character variety and extra stages to challenge, plus the other relatively minor stuff you mentioned in your post. As for the Supernatural Border, as I've said before, unless you're concerned with squeezing every last point out of the game you can pretty much ignore the exact time you activate it, and just focus on keeping the cherry + meter rising to activate as many as possible, for the 10,000 cherry bonus when it runs out. The game can still be played either for survival or for score without it even being much of a concern.

I more or less agree with the 3 thing you listed which were improved from PCB to IN (I would also list some of the extra sfx and other handy indicators, such as the "clicks" which told you when you were collecting time points from hitting the boss, and a few others, as well as the fact that being able to earn time points in both regular and slow mode gave a bit more flexibility than PCB, which pretty much demanded that you stay in unfocused mode all the time to score well, not to mention that the bullet patterns are even better looking and more varied and creative), but I'd personally regard them as rather minor, all things considered: the greater attack variety was nice, but hardly a deal-breaker (especially considering you could unlock the ability to play as individual characters), the ability to use the POC without full power gave you a bit more to do for the first stage and a half or so, and the easier life/death border, while nice, also carried stiffer penalties than before (IIRC it uses 2 bombs in IN, as opposed to 1 in PCB). As such, you still can't depend on it a whole lot. I'd also argue that, while you don't have to "calculate" as much as you might in taking full advantage of the Supernatural Border in PCB, you have to keep track of even more stuff when playing IN, since the point value of the blue items is not only determined by the height of the screen you collect them at, but also how far to either end the human/phantom meter is, and its status is affected by anything you shoot, any bombs you use, and any time points you collect (and, of course, if you die), so you have to constantly monitor it. I'm sure that others have been as turned off by its system much as you were dissuaded by the Supernatural Border in PCB.

In any event, as I've said before, I'm not trying to change your viewpoint or anything like that, just trying to make clear why I still like PCB regardless of its imperfections.

[SAM]

Cannot believe I actually miss the voting oppotrunty this year.

I was too busy during the period.

I think my vote won't do much since I mainly vote for Toaplan's stuffs, and may be Progear & ESPgaluda would go up a rank because of me.

The games we choose as the top 25 are real good IMO, represent the genru well.

What we are on page 7 ?!?! I miss a lots of discussion. Tons to read...

[howmuchkeefe]

Regarding PCB:

I liked the border system. It rewarded risky grazing and survival, and it seemed to me that ZUN designed his levels well enough that you didn't have to go all that far out of your way to activate it at the most opportune time, provided that you weren't making too many mistakes.

[Arznei]

I would like to vote for ESP Galuda. The game isn't entirely difficult and there's always a reserve available in case you're in a tight spot and it's too late to move your thumb over to the bomb button. It's for all ages, it's fun, and anyone can play it.

(note that I haven't played Ibara or Dodonpachi Daioujou yet, unless I resort to piracy)

I'll ask my friend and see what he wants to vote for as well. His collection is.. well.. let's just say I've never seen so many 2D PS2 games in my entire life.

[benj]

The voting booths have been closed over a month ago.

[Arznei]

In that case, nevermind then.

[dai jou bu]

Okay, here's my final thoughts regarding PCB, with the EoSD and IN associated with it.

aside from basic dodging and shooting, was dashing to the top of the screen for all the items. PCB keeps that element, but also adds in the cherry meter, which gives you the choice of taking a further risk by staying unfocused as much as possible. However, unlike in EoSD, which more or less required you to focus at least somewhat on scoring well, since the extends (aside from the occasional 1-ups) were score-based, PCB left the choice completely up to you whether or not to deal with it, since the extend rate is entirely item-based, and isn't affected by score at all.

Two things I've concluded from this:

- Point items are still required in either game to increase your number of lives. That's not much of a change from EoSD, since you still need to collect a ridiculously high number of point items near the end of a PCB session in order to acheive those free lives.

- Staying unfocused is really annoying in PCB, since most of the danmaku thrown at you move at slower speeds than in EoSD, making your unfocused speed not only awkward, but completely pointless in most situations, which brings me back to the integral calculus needed to determine how much time you need to milk out as many cherry points possible before you have to refocus. This statement also seems to contradicts itself when you say this:

the characters' focused attacks were more unique than in EoSD and had to be used more strategically

Also, Sakuya is the only character with truly unique focused attacks in the game. Reimu's and Marisa's firepower in focus mode just looked more Xtreme.

Now, let me move on to Imperishable Night.

the greater attack variety was nice, but hardly a deal-breaker (especially considering you could unlock the ability to play as individual characters),

Imperishable Night makes sure that each duo's focused shot is truly different from their normal shot. Individual character sessions was not the way this game was meant to be played. If it was, ZUN would've completely redesigned the levels with this in mind once you selected a solo character. It's kinda like Ikaruga's prototype mode- it's there for kicks, and nothing more.

the ability to use the POC without full power gave you a bit more to do for the first stage and a half or so,

Yes, one stage that's rather boring in design really does bother me. That's why even though I don't consider R-Type Delta as the best in the series because of the lack of change (and I even considered the Delta Attack a gameplay design copout) that was found in R-Type III, I don't mind it because the level design was still well done. In fact, if Irem did something completely new in Delta instead of fine-tuning everything learned in III, it would've been the best.

and the easier life/death border, while nice, also carried stiffer penalties than before (IIRC it uses 2 bombs in IN, as opposed to 1 in PCB). As such, you still can't depend on it a whole lot.

You also can't really depend on life-saving bombs in PCB either, since you have to hack the game code to even save yourself the way IN does it. At least for IN you're given a chance to save yourself during the most difficult part of the boss' attacks, at the cost of two bombs instead of one life and any unused bombs left when you died.

Also, it was never my intention to make these gameplay changes found in Imperishable Night sound like it was God's gift to man. I was trying to make them sound more like good gameplay design decisions more than anything else.

[BulletMagnet]

Cue the Energizer bunny.

Point items are still required in either game to increase your number of lives. That's not much of a change from EoSD, since you still need to collect a ridiculously high number of point items near the end of a PCB session in order to acheive those free lives.

Why "near the end?" IIRC you're awarded the extends regularly, every couple hundred items or so...collect the things consistently throughout the game, and you'll keep the extra lives coming. And what you say about having to collect items in both games is correct, and obviously using the POC in both is the ideal way to go about it, but the difference between the two is that in PCB, if you're at a spot where using the POC is risky and you'd rather not try it, you can still collect at least some of the items closer to the bottom of the screen and still gain some headway towards the next extend, since the point value of the items doesn't matter in that regard. In EoSD, you might as well not bother, since the points do matter there.

Staying unfocused is really annoying in PCB, since most of the danmaku thrown at you move at slower speeds than in EoSD, making your unfocused speed not only awkward, but completely pointless in most situations, which brings me back to the integral calculus needed to determine how much time you need to milk out as many cherry points possible before you have to refocus.

Methinks that's at least partially the point: staying alive while "unfocused" is more difficult, and as such is the main way that the game challenges you to get high scores. As was mentioned, though, if you'd rather just stay in focused mode and not worry about score, the game doesn't penalize you for that in any way aside from giving you less points. And I think calling the process "calculus" is a pretty long stretch: it's simple risk vs. reward, much the same as using the POC to collect items. The only real question you need to ask yourself in either case is "Am I skilled enough to stay alive while doing this, or should I play it safe?" Same as in heaven knows how many other shmups.

Also, Sakuya is the only character with truly unique focused attacks in the game. Reimu's and Marisa's firepower in focus mode just looked more Xtreme.

I'd hafta take issue with that: all of PCB's characters' focused shots are more unique than those found in EoSD. In the latter game, your actual shot doesn't change at all, your side options are simply moved to above your character instead of on the sides: compare, for instance, Reimu A in both games. In PCB, her focused shot condenses all of her wide unfocused shots into a single "beam": it homes in like the unfocused shots do, but unlike in EoSD, it actually affects the coverage and raw power of the shot, rather than just its source's location. Marisa B is another one: in PCB, her focused laser greatly increases her power but greatly affects her attack area, since her "regular" shot completely vanishes, unlike in EoSD, where nothing changes except the options' location.

Imperishable Night makes sure that each duo's focused shot is truly different from their normal shot. Individual character sessions was not the way this game was meant to be played.

Well, where are the complaints about how "unbalanced" this aspect of the game is? In any event, as I said, the variety of attacks is certainly nice, but I'd hardly call it a requirement for a shmup to be deemed respectable: heck, EoSD gave you even less variety, as have lots of other shmups which people name as their favorites.

Yes, one stage that's rather boring in design really does bother me.

In truth, I'd hardly call the beginnings of EoSD and PCB "boring," you just have to play them a bit differently than in IN. You still want to collect point items as high up on the screen as possible, but since you can't "vacuum" everything up yet, you have to pick the most lucrative targets instead of just rushing up wherever's safest.

You also can't really depend on life-saving bombs in PCB either, since you have to hack the game code to even save yourself the way IN does it.

Yeah, the window is smaller, but it's still usable, hardly a need to hack the game code, heh heh. In any event, some might say that the game is overly generous even giving you that option to begin with: I don't necessarily agree, but I hardly see reason to complain too much when you're already given a bit of extra time to save yourself after you screw up, which pretty much no other shmup gives you, heh heh.

Also, it was never my intention to make these gameplay changes found in Imperishable Night sound like it was God's gift to man. I was trying to make them sound more like good gameplay design decisions more than anything else.

Granted, IN is great, but I still say PCB is able to stand on its own in relation to it, and both can be enjoyed on their merits.

[Jeffrey]

Just a quick note: as someone recently returning to video-gaming/shmups in my later 30's, I really found this thread and poll (and debate) useful. I purchased many of the titles above based on the discussion, and am trying them all out (particularly the Saturn titles). There seems to be a bias in favor of recent games (is Gradius V really the best Gradius out of all of them??), but this was a really good starting list for someone who does not know a lot about the area. I didn't contribute to the thread, but I did lurk a lot.

Thanks.

[ST Dragon]

I don't know if it's the best, but it's surely the friendliest in favour to the player, unlike most previous games in the Gradius & R-Type series, where the difficulty level does get very cheap indeed.
At last, you have the option of removing those pesky check-points and the enemy bullets will have to hit the center of the Vic-Viper to kill you.

Oh and the graphics are by far the best of the series, probably the best along side R-Type Final, to ever grace the horizontal shooter genre on any platform.

Gradius Gaiden on the PSX, is another very nice shooter as well.

[DC906270]

^ i hate all Gradius games, Gaiden is no exception looks nice though

[dai jou bu]

Cue the Energizer bunny.

Can we compare Twinkle Star Sprites to Phantasmagoria of Flower View now?

EDIT: Need to play PoFV more to make a better comparison though.

[BulletMagnet]

Can we compare Twinkle Star Sprites to Phantasmagoria of Flower View now?

Hee hee. I've only played the demo of that one, myself...from what I've seen, it's good, but doesn't feel as "special" (for lack of a better word) as ZUN's other stuff to me...granted, his previous stuff borrowed elements from other games (supposedly the SnS games were the biggest influence), but they still felt quite unique...PoFV, to me at least, feels much closer to TSS than any of his older games feel to SnS or any other game. That doesn't mean it's bad, obviously, but seeing as I already own both the original TSS and the PS2 sequel (which plays almost the same), I can't get myself as excited about it as I am over his other games...thus, as of now I haven't forked out for the full version, though I may eventually if I find it for a decent price.

[Icarus]

Positions 2, 3 & 4 make me feel like I'm on the wrong forum.

You and me both, DEL.

Plenty of Treasure and Cave love going on. -_-;;
Don't agree with any of the positions, but that's what you get when you cast a public vote. ^_-

Thanks to the guys running it again this year, nicely done.

[Rob]

(is Gradius V really the best Gradius out of all of them??)

Certainly is.

[professor ganson]

This coming year my goal is twofold.
1. Get much more time with some of my top picks. I need to 1cc Harmful Park and get a decent score on at least one of the Raidens. I also have some posted scores that need improving: Shiki II, Dragon Blaze, and Gunbird 2.
2. I need to spend more time with some of the much-liked games that didn't make my list. E.g. the Thunder Force series. I've been playing V and enjoying it a lot.

[RoninBuddha]

hrmm,, the DDP love (not just here) is starting to get ridiculous imo, but oh well.

[Alpolio]

hrmm,, the DDP love (not just here) is starting to get ridiculous imo, but oh well.

DDP was really low on my list too. Actually, I can't remember if I even voted for it -- too many other good titles.

Edit: Nope. I didn't vote for DDP. I had to double check. So I'm not a contributor to that issue.

[Rob]

hrmm,, the DDP love (not just here) is starting to get ridiculous imo, but oh well.

I'd rather see DDP at #1 than many other games (like, let's see, Ikaruga).

[Herr Schatten]

I'd rather see DDP at #1 than many other games (like, let's see, Ikaruga).

Exactly. I didn't even vote for DDP, but I think it's fine to have it on top of the list.

[RoninBuddha]

(like, let's see, Ikaruga).

well, if you put it that way..

[Ed Oscuro]

Very nice list. I'm both surprised and not surprised that mostly contemporary manic shooters got on the list, but after playing Guwange recently I can see why: these games are a great test of skill. I wish that more traditional/breakthrough shooters had done better, but it's nice that people are actually thinking, rather than just voting in traditional favorites.

Next year, I'm adding Cosmic Avenger and Juno First to my list ;)

[Middlemoor]

Tyrian?

[ROBOTRON]

Great work on the chart.

However, I don't like 90% of Cave games.

COMPILE
TECHNOSOFT
SNK
TREASURE

Ownz me.

[professor ganson]

However, I don't like 90% of Cave games.

I'm not a big Cave fan, but I'm currently enjoying DonPachi a lot-- I'd say it's my favorite by Cave so far. But it's not on the top 25.

[Dave_K.]

However, I don't like 90% of Cave games.

I'm not a big Cave fan, but I'm currently enjoying DonPachi a lot-- I'd say it's my favorite by Cave so far. But it's not on the top 25.

Is it that some people dislike Cave style shooters, or manic shooters in general. I really don't understand.

[ST Dragon]

I think it’s just people that don’t like manic shooters, wrongly correlating Cave shooters to manic shooters.
Not that some Cave shooters are not, but it would be wrong to tag the whole Cave shooter library as manic.

For example, Mushihimesama is an excellent shooter.

[professor ganson]

Is it that some people dislike Cave style shooters, or manic shooters in general. I really don't understand.

I tend to like faster bullets and hitboxes that are easy for me to make out. Psikyo verts are my favorites.

EDIT: I take back what I said a few posts back. I've returned to DDP recently, and I'd have to say that this is my favorite cave game-- definitely an improvement over DonPachi.

[Harlequin]

...