RGB Decoders & Encoders (non-scaling) that support 240p

[kitty666cats]

Do we have a master list of these compiled anywhere? I know there's only a slim few decoders that cooperate - I believe I've seen Dochartaigh(?) talk about a few models that they've had success with in some old threads/has tried out a good handful of the Kramer units (I could be thinking of someone else, if so, sorry!). Then there's a handful of Extron units, or at the very least, I think the CD300...? Nowadays we've got the good ol' Koryuu, as far as YPbPr decoders go. Def would like to see YPbPr decoders mentioned if anyone can think of some!

As far as encoders go, obviously there's the Micomsoft ones / JROK and various other arcade PCBs / linuxbot3000 / the TaoBao MegaDrive S-Video boxes / J.S Tech's SCART to S-Video boxes... I assume this is a much simpler process judging by their price and wider availability?

What I'd LOVE is if people who have some of these units could perhaps dig up some old photos/comparison shots! I've got some various devices lying around, two of which I know can't handle 240p, and some others I still need to test. If people want to mention any that do NOT handle 240p, that's always welcome too!

The YPbPr devices I own that can't handle 240p are the Key Digital KD-VP8 (severe distortion/vertical scrolling issues on the displays I've tried it with, some old HD Retrovision spreadsheet I dug up corroborates this) and this weird thing - https://www.svideo.com/svc2ypbpr.html - which outputs a stable image, but 'breaks' 240p and only displays in 480i (to be fair, they say it's 480i-only on the site). I've also not tried it myself, but Bucko / VGP have tried that CYP/Ambery/whatever-generic-brand-originally-built-it unit that has a dipswitch for either YPbPr or RGsB output, and I believe the accounts I've heard are anywhere between 'breaks 240p' and 'no coherent image at all'. There's a separate model that has BNC input for composite instead of RCA, but it looks like the exact same damn thing with a male RCA to female BNC fused onto it

[nmalinoski]

As I understand it, there's a point at which Kramer units switched to a newer digital chip that is not 240p-aware, and I believe that started with the FC-4046, so anything older should work, while anything FC-4046 or newer treats it like 480i.

I personally have a Kramer FC-4044 (selectable CVBS or YC -> simultaneous YPbPr and RGB (selectable RGBS or RGsB)) that does not misinterpret 240p.

I had also purchased an FC-4040 (selectable CVBS, YC, or component (selectable YPbPr/RGBS/RGsB) to simultaneous CVBS, YC, and component (selectable YPbPr/RGBS/RGsB/RGBHV)), which is supposed to be 240p-compatible; but that unit was nonfunctional, so I gave it away. :/

[kitty666cats]

I had also purchased an FC-4040 (selectable CVBS, YC, or component (selectable YPbPr/RGBS/RGsB) to simultaneous CVBS, YC, and component (selectable YPbPr/RGBS/RGsB/RGBHV)), which is supposed to be 240p-compatible; but that unit was nonfunctional, so I gave it away. :/

Ughhh, that sucks! Hopefully you didn't take too hard a hit on that one

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kramer-VM-19N- ... 3388466604

^ There's this VM-19N on eBay right now, dunno if it predates the digital units... it seems to be pretty much identical (at least upon first glance!) to the FC-19, which almost certainly predates most of their decoders, judging by the model number(?)

http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/STARIN ... /FC-19.pdf

[Guspaz]

For decoding, if you aren't going to a digital source (at which point there are options that can go directly from CVBS/YC to HDMI), there is the Koryuu from VGP, which can decode CVBS/YC to YPbPr, which should work in most places that you'd use RGB (like a PVM, a CRT TV, or an OSSC), or can be easily converted to RGB using something like a RetroTINK COMP2RGB.

[Xer Xian]

I've owned a Kramer FC-4043 for a little while and posted something here. Doesn't support RGB but I think you can expect a similar performance from Kramer RGB transcoders of the same line (for YC and Composite sources). The composite decoder was just very bad.

If there's modern hardware available for your needs I'd go with that, these machines are old, difficult to find and probably not worth the effort.

[Fudoh]

I can think of the Entech CVSI-1 which does does support 240p and transcodes composite and s-video to both component and RGB. Extremely hard to find though and I wasn't impressed with it back then.

[kitty666cats]

If there's modern hardware available for your needs I'd go with that, these machines are old, difficult to find and probably not worth the effort.

Oh, yeah I would never spend more than, like, $40 on a decoder (and that would be during financially stable times!)... moreso morbidly curious / wanting to see comparison shots and compile a list

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Proceed-CVP2-C ... 4117298019

^ This thing looks quite interesting! Here's a manual: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/79603 ... -Cvp2.html

I think it's funny that so many of these claim that they'll provide a superior image - like they're using alchemy and turning shit into gold (like that scene in The Holy Mountain ). From all I've personally experienced, the difference is always exteremely negligible and insignificant: moreso a workaround for convenient connectivity purposes, not some magic fidelity-wand.

EDIT:
Something I have been meaning to try is taking the 'broken' 240p -> 480i from that SVideo-dot-com unit & turning it back into 240p via the GBS8200 CFW. I'll try that soon and see what happens, lol. BUCKO if you see this / have a CFW'd GBS8200 / still have that shite Ambery/CYP unit, you should test this idea out (for kicks!) too

[Dochartaigh]

Do we have a master list of these compiled anywhere? I know there's only a slim few decoders that cooperate - I believe I've seen Dochartaigh(?) talk about a few models that they've had success with in some old threads/has tried out a good handful of the Kramer units (I could be thinking of someone else, if so, sorry!).

I have no clue what you're talking about...







**DISCLAIMER** these are my personal (and probably disjointed) notes from some spreadsheets I keep. I've owned and tested so many units and my memory really does suck, so the below is the only thing I really have to go by (unless it's something that made it's home in my server rack and I use on a ~weekly basis). Many I don't have anymore either (sold a huge lot of 16x PVM's and bunch of gear like this a couple months ago).



For the Kramer units pre-dating the FC-4046, they're really a mixed bag in my experience (owned maybe 10? of them so far) and have NOT aged well in many circumstances. Several broken units, some malfunctioning, having to replace caps on a few, some cold solder joints (or whatever... reflowing made some quasi-work but still not 100%). For a comparison, Extron equipment from the same era (and I've owned a LOT more Extron units than Kramer) I've had a single RGB RXi 203 go bad and I think that's it...

FC-4040 CV/YC/YPbPr/RGBS to YUV/RGB/RGBS
SHMUPS CONFIRMED WORKING WITH 240p OWN but BROKE (sent to me from Shmups) - got Green only working, 2nd unit from eBay 9/2019 had interference on 240p - fine for 480p and maybe 480i to 480i. ....NOT CONVINCED WORKS FOR 240P

FC-4041 RGBS/YPbPr to CV/YC
ordered 2x from Germany (1 working, 1x broke for parts), 240v units, need to swap in 120v power supply from other Kramer WILL UPDATE (as this is the sole missing rack-mountable unit I need for my rack...)

FC-4044 CY/YC to RGBS/YPbPr
CONFIRMED WORKING WITH 240p OWN 2x, MAIN/PREFERRED unit for S-Video to RGBS (for SVHS / N64 / GC). Needed recap of 2?x largest caps otherwise B&W color or some snow/dirtiness

FC-4045 Same as 4046? 4046 is "Video MultiCoder". 4045 is "MultiCoder Universal Transcoder"?
***Literally EVERY single signal type > to EVERY single signal type...
No mention on Shmups of it working (or not). bought 10/2019 and doesn't seem to work with 240p, think (not positive) might be fine for 480i+. ....HUGE shame as this would be the holy grail...

Kramer FC-14 (newer era unit than the above I believe), RGBS to YPbPr, perfect, have 2x. Don't think tested above 480p.

____________________________________________
____________________________________________
____________________________________________

Here's bunch of other random ones by other manufacturers. Probably missing a bunch but this is all I could find notes on:


Shinybow SB-2840 (RGBS SCART to Component/YPbPr converter), worked perfect. Some say image not as clean as alternatives but might have been due to a bad batch of power supplies a couple? people mentioned.

Shinybow SB-3682, RGBHV (via RCA) to YC/CV, BNIB sealed, never worked - reflowed most every single solder joint

Sony YR-421 (S-Video to RGBS), used and old, never worked – no picture (probably just broke)

Extron CVC 200 and CVC 300, (YPbPr to RGB), worked great... stupid dial to MANUALLY switch from SD to HD though...

Behar Bros. Toro, RGBHV to RGBS w/ 480i/480p switch, bad sync combiner – use through Extron RGB and works fine.

Behar Bros. Garo 2nd? 3rd gen (paid 1/19, got months later), YPbPr > RGBHV, mine worked fine even on Wii (common system people had issues with on this version of it).

Audio Authority 9A65A (YPbPr to RGBS/HV), perfect for 240p/480i/480p, NOT rack mountable and cheap plastic construction, forget if ever tested at 720p

Extron YCS, CV to YC -or- YC to CV, only used once, pretty positive 240p worked

Extron CD 400, CV/YC to RGBS, VERY old plastic cased Extron, worked perfect for 240p.

Extron AVT 100, RF to Composite, sold and guy said it worked great –don't know if 240p compatible though

[kitty666cats]

https://www.converters.tv/other-product ... r/169.html

Dug up another by good ol' sketchy Cypress

[Xer Xian]

Oh I see it now, this thread is about sharing one's personal struggle against the crave for random old hardware with lots of buttons on it.

I cought this illness too sometime ago, it's a fun one to have. You guys must have cought quite a bad strain. Doc especially, super bad

[Fudoh]

I'm just in the midst of getting a new room for all my old tech. Once set up (after the summer I hope) I should be able to unbox all the stuff. If anything, it'll do great for some really nice collection photos

[kitty666cats]

Oh I see it now, this thread is about sharing one's personal struggle against the crave for random old hardware with lots of buttons on it.

I cought this illness too sometime ago, it's a fun one to have. You guys must have cought quite a bad strain. Doc especially, super bad

It's a grimdark rabbit hole, especially when you realize that 90% of this stuff is junk / I have no real use for 99% of it

The Kramer FC-14 is awesome, but that's a transcoder - different beast than what I'm talking about (though I have no qualms with people posting about theirs like Doc did!)

[Dochartaigh]

Oh I see it now, this thread is about sharing one's personal struggle against the crave for random old hardware with lots of buttons on it.

I cought this illness too sometime ago, it's a fun one to have. You guys must have cought quite a bad strain. Doc especially, super bad

Lol, I was only showing my backups in those pics too – didn't even show my full rack, but yes, I do/did have a problem lol. Sold most of that lately though and just have a backup for the units I actually use (since many are so hard to find...literally took me 3+ years to get everything above), but it was definitely a roller coaster ride trying to find what worked for my individual setup for sure.

I'm just in the midst of getting a new room for all my old tech. Once set up (after the summer I hope) I should be able to unbox all the stuff. If anything, it'll do great for some really nice collection photos

I'll tell you right now – this is a GREAT feeling. That beautiful green-walled and concrete-floored room in my pictures is my garage - recently bought ~30' worth of steel warehouse-quailty shelves (and literally 30+ tupperware containers) to get everything organized. Makes a world of difference in my daily life actually (simply having a place to put everything), and keeps me WAY more organized than I've ever been before.

The Kramer FC-14 is awesome, but that's a transcoder - different beast than what I'm talking about (though I have no qualms with people posting about theirs like Doc did!)

Do you consider something that goes from a high quality signal like YPbPr to or from RGBS for example a Transcoder, then something like S-Video to Composite would be a decoder, and a RF to Composite an encoder or what? I honestly never differentiated, just kinda call everything converters or transcoders. I think some people only consider encoring if it's going from analog to digital or something like that?

It's a grimdark rabbit hole, especially when you realize that 90% of this stuff is junk / I have no real use for 99% of it

For the junk part, that's only if you group all the chinese/etc stuff made by fly by night companies... I always stuck to the rack mountable items as much as I could (as I HATE having to like velcro or double-side tape some weirdly shaped box into my rack because it can't easily be mounted), most of it by Extron and Kramer and usually been pleasantly surprised (besides age related issues). Most startling for me is a VHS tape played through a SVHS player with S-Video/YC output, brought to a Kramer YC>RGBS converter... you would NOT believe how good a newer VHS tape can look on a PVM or BVM. Kinda startling after how we all remember them looking growing up (which was pretty bad quality).

For the 'no real use' part, I always had a use for something or I wouldn't buy it. My entire premise into building a larger rack system was to be able to convert ANY signal type to ANY other signal type, so I could take in everything from RF to HDMI, then output it to a flatscreen TV, to a RGBS/YPbPr BVM CRT, down to a basic consumer TV with only Composite inputs. Pretty much own no composite-only CRT's anymore so I never got there, but I can do everything else with just a few strategic devices: 4044, FC-14, Corio2, 9A65, RGB Rxi, OSSC – that can do pretty much any type of conversion needed for retro gaming.

[Fudoh]

Do you consider something that goes from a high quality signal like YPbPr to or from RGBS for example a Transcoder, then something like S-Video to Composite would be a decoder, and a RF to Composite an encoder or what?

De- and encoding refers to PAL/NTSC color carriers which YPrPr and RGB are independent of.
Once you get into RF you're talking modulation, so modulators and demodulators.

[kitty666cats]

For the 'no real use' part, I always had a use for something or I wouldn't buy it. My entire premise into building a larger rack system was to be able to convert ANY signal type to ANY other signal type, so I could take in everything from RF to HDMI, then output it to a flatscreen TV, to a RGBS/YPbPr BVM CRT, down to a basic consumer TV with only Composite inputs. Pretty much own no composite-only CRT's anymore so I never got there, but I can do everything else with just a few strategic devices: 4044, FC-14, Corio2, 9A65, RGB Rxi, OSSC – that can do pretty much any type of conversion needed for retro gaming.

I was being cynical / not-completely-serious, heh. I suppose it's moreso finding that some equipment seems a bit excessive for my (regrettably) casual use - I've been in a depressive slump and haven't gone & had fun with AV/vidya stuff enough lately / me feeling some sorta guilt about rarely putting a lot of my gear to use... though, there's nothing wrong with that! I've sifted through much my stuff, I no longer have a stockpile of several devices that do the exact same thing. I think I had four different RGB to YPbPr transcoders at one point

[kitty666cats]

The Kramer FC-14 is awesome, but that's a transcoder - different beast than what I'm talking about (though I have no qualms with people posting about theirs like Doc did!)

Do you consider something that goes from a high quality signal like YPbPr to or from RGBS for example a Transcoder, then something like S-Video to Composite would be a decoder, and a RF to Composite an encoder or what? I honestly never differentiated, just kinda call everything converters or transcoders. I think some people only consider encoring if it's going from analog to digital or something like that?

I suppose I personally use 'transcoder' as a kinda broad term for non-scaling signal/colorspace conversion, and decoder/encoder for slightly more complicated signal alterations (stuff less simple than YC<->CV or YPbBr -> RGB / RGB -> YPbPr). It seems like modern nomenclature generally uses 'converter' if the device also has the option for scaling, but of course isn't always the case. Semantics antics!

[Steamflogger Boss]

Y'all got me looking at random bullshit on eBay and I stumbled across this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Blonder-Tongue ... Sw93xeOl-V

No idea what it does

[Fudoh]

No idea what it does

it's a modulator that produces a QAM RF signal from your HDMI (or component etc) source. This way you can feed a signal into your house's antenna signal. It's used to distribute signals from receivers (or media players) to a large number of TVs or displays using an existing RF distribution cabling. Even Micomsoft makes a unit similar to this one.

[Steamflogger Boss]

I figured if anyone would know it would be you, heh.

[kitty666cats]

I got the Kramer VM-19N for a $10 “best offer” plus ~$20 shipping, I well let you folks know how it is / if it properly processes 240p! Stoked to try it with GBScontrol, heh

[kitty666cats]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CDikbSeFbGV/

^ Kramer VM-19N + PS1 in action. I'm using composite from one of those cheap multi-console cables for PS3/Xbox360/Gamecube, with a BNC adapter at the end. RGBS out w/ some Monoprice cables.

There's a little color issue, which really seems most noticeable in the PSIO menu: my color scheme is a kinda neon-lime green, but it's showing up almost as teal/turqoise. In-game, the colors seemed much better!

Still many more experiments to go - S-Video input instead, DE15 RGBHV w/ a sync combiner out (rather than 4BNC RGBS), and trying all sorts of other transcoders and/or devices in the chain. AND trying out some stuff like Laserdiscs and VHS - but obviously, those are recorded natively in composite. I'll try sending signals through my JVC DVR before the Decoder, should provide some neat results!

The JVC DVR is super wacky, you can feed it composite or S-Video from an external source and decode it to 480i component or 480p component. Can do this with the internal VCR, as well! I haven't tried using composite input > S-Video output on the thing yet, but that could prove to be useful too!

[Fudoh]

AND trying out some stuff like Laserdiscs

very interested to hear your findings. Do you have a test laserdisc with the snell & wilcox comb filter test pattern?

[kitty666cats]

AND trying out some stuff like Laserdiscs

very interested to hear your findings. Do you have a test laserdisc with the snell & wilcox comb filter test pattern?

Nah, no LD calibration dics - I've got a rip of one of the early AVIA DVDs, as well as one of the Video Essentials DVDs.

I also have this app ( https://www.js-technology.com/store/ind ... roller=cms )that I use on my iPhone SE w/ a Lightning to VGA adapter - instantly synchronized to my CRT presentation at 1024x768 @ 60Hz, which is the 'official' max res and what I usually have it set to for when watching video content not on VHS or LD. It was extra-nice because my adapter otherwise displays the phone in a window the same scale as the phone's display area. Convenient little app!

I went through numerous device I own and I found that my favorite device for Laserdisc playback is my JVC DR-MV5 (I send composite in, and I send out component in either 480i or 480p - I then transcode to RGBS, as the RGB mod on my monitor seems to have messed up the composite input). By far the best processing out of several different units of mine, by a wide margin. Still have many video experiments to attempt! I used GBScontrol to dowscale 480i RGBS Laserdisc playback to 240p and it actually looked pretty cool, lol. Since the display is so large, the scanlines weren't bothersome - rather, it felt like I was watching a giant PVM (instead of a presentation monitor, which is pro-monitor-territory )

Anyhoo - back to the decoder: running composite through the JVC DR-MV5 'broke' the PS1's 240p and could only provide 480i output. I wasn't too surprised by this, just wanted to try for fun. Used to X-Vue Gamma Boost with the output, and it was nothing to write home about - those things really seem to be designed for 31+ kHz, from my experiences. Lastly, I tried the 15kHz RGBHV output with a passive sync combiner, just for fun. No noticeable differences. However, I have a JVC TM-H150CG w/ one of the Linuxbot RGB cards (BNC version) so I can try out the 15kHz RGBHV sometime soon!

[Steamflogger Boss]

Some Criterions might have the test pattern, I'm not 100% positive though.

[kitty666cats]

Some Criterions might have the test pattern, I'm not 100% positive though.

I looked around, I found out that the calibration disc 'Video Essentials' has it, but 'A Video Standard' does not. Pretty sure that's the only one that has said specific pattern, there's many movies with color bars & even a few with speaker tests of some sort

[kitty666cats]

Fun unrelated LaserDisc calibration disc fact: you can still buy the "LaserDisc Reference Disc" directly from Pioneer

Well, potentially related! Do you happen to know if it has the Snell & Wilcox pattern? It's kinda looking like Video Essentials might be the only LD that has it, but I'm not quite certain just yet. I'm planning on picking up said disc once I have a tad more $to my name...

[kitty666cats]

Here's an interesting 'universal multicoder' kinda like some of those Kramer units. As far as I can tell, this one doesn't seem to scale either (non-scaling units are of particular interest, hence why I put it in the thread title )

The 'Truevision Madras'

https://www.ebay.com/itm/303634625089
https://www.ebay.com/itm/362989872128

Two listed for relatively decent prices, especially since one of these listings takes best offers. Kinda curious, but certainly don't have the spare $$$ right now!

[ldeveraux]

Here's an interesting 'universal multicoder' kinda like some of those Kramer units. As far as I can tell, this one doesn't seem to scale either (non-scaling units are of particular interest, hence why I put it in the thread title )

The 'Truevision Madras'

https://www.ebay.com/itm/303634625089
https://www.ebay.com/itm/362989872128

Two listed for relatively decent prices, especially since one of these listings takes best offers. Kinda curious, but certainly don't have the spare $$$ right now!

So you want me to buy one of these haha? I don't really have the $ either!

[kitty666cats]

Here's an interesting 'universal multicoder' kinda like some of those Kramer units. As far as I can tell, this one doesn't seem to scale either (non-scaling units are of particular interest, hence why I put it in the thread title )

The 'Truevision Madras'

https://www.ebay.com/itm/303634625089
https://www.ebay.com/itm/362989872128

Two listed for relatively decent prices, especially since one of these listings takes best offers. Kinda curious, but certainly don't have the spare $$$ right now!

So you want me to buy one of these haha? I don't really have the $ either!

lol, you can take the plunge IF YOU DARE xD

I've got some stuff I'm listing on eBay in the upcoming days that should help out mah cash flow bigtime, I may put in an offer on one of these. Info on them is very scarce!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Proceed-CVP2-C ... 4117298019

^ this thing looks super cool, moreso transcoder/encoder than decoder... BUT, it doubles as a swicher! Super cool concept, but I sent them various offers up to around $40 and they all got declined. They sent an offer of $264.89, and the thing's listed at $270 lol. It looks very cool, but not THAT cool!!!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CYP-Multi-Stan ... 3988304593

^ there's this CYP (Cypress / Ambery / converters.tv / etc etc etc) that also looks kinda neat, but anyone familiar with them knows that their line of products is INCREDIBLY hit or miss, and usually moreso on the 'miss' side of things

[kitty666cats]

https://imgur.com/a/l2bfrTI

Here's some pics of the VM-19N. Balrog's face doesn't look all reddish and odd, a byproduct of 'pure RGB' and RGB to YPbPr transcoders