Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[BIL]

Thread title needs to be replaced with R2RKMF. Seriously.

I've done so a few times over the years, but I kinda liked the air of elusiveness... Let's give it a shot.

[bottino]

the last time i settled down for some serious extended sessions in CV1, i was determined to finally drop holy water altogether and learn how to handle the tougher parts without it. i came to really love the axe; it's got a slight backswing that can save you in a pinch, the tall arc defangs some irritating setpieces, and it can take advantage of the "critical hit" glitch with axe knights and bone dragons.

that trajectory and backswing just happen to make it perfect for swatting down that first set of sickles that grimmy tosses your way, just turn left and let fly. eventually i noticed that if you hold center stage, you get this setup every time, because it's just one pattern centered on your current position. if you stray too close to the edges of the screen, though, some will wrap around and appear on the other side in a more awkward setup.

Good stuff. I came to adopt the Axe as my weapon of choice against Death, as I think I can neutralize his sickles more efficiently with it and also because it allows me pass through the corridor leading to him unscathed (standing at a safe distance from the Axe Knights, neutralize his axe with your whip and let two or three of your own fly and tear him to shreds, and since you're standing in place, the medusas can't hit you as well ). Having a full healthbar enables me to go all out on him, which is the way that i like to tackle that fight.

anyway, the point of all this is that drac's teleport is also based on you: he warps to a random offset from your position. if you hold center stage he'll start on the right, then appear on the left, then appear on the right, etc. if you get close to the edges it can wrap around and become erratic, but stay in the center and all he does is alternate sides, so you always know which way to dodge, even on the zero offsets where he wants to rifle through your pockets

Yeah, I noticed that as well. When you think about it, that fight is really like a dance: two steps to the right, two steps to the left, stop, repeat...

[BIL]

Akumajou Dracula, game of strategy. Classic balance of tension and flexibility. Still routinely surprised by others' tactics for the historic trouble spots. Rather like the following year's R-Type, in that way, down to the loop tightening the screws a little too much at times (catacombs )

Gave the two-step a go last night, definitely works! Will make the final VS showdown significantly less ball-breaking, thanks again sharc.

As always, had a million little giffable things happen en-route. I know an action game is good when I can't leave my goddamn share button alone.



"RAWR, imma bitechu" "bitch pls" *whap* "BITCH IMMA - wait FUUU"

---

Following up on Sunset Riders' odd crouch lag, I was wondering how I hadn't noticed it during the Dark Horse quick kill. Turns out, if you're holding [down] while the character's doing something else - in this case vaulting up a level - you'll go straight to crouch.



Same for regular jumps, and basically anything else. So if you can see you're gonna need to hit the deck, holding [down] ahead of time is a good idea.



As noted in the previous post, ducking's not that important in SR, and while sliding most certainly is, diagonal-down inputs come out next-frame just like every other. They sure "dodged a bullet" there M I RITE!

Spoiler

Actually, the only way I can seem to consistently nail Loop 2 Dark Horse on one pass is by run/gunning him. Everything's a tick meaner - boss HP, enemy reaction speed, shot speed & shot frequency - so it's a tight one. Pretty much just for style points, though. Even if he gets away, he'll be ragged.

[sharc]

Good stuff. I came to adopt the Axe as my weapon of choice against Death, as I think I can neutralize his sickles more efficiently with it and also because it allows me pass through the corridor leading to him unscathed (standing at a safe distance from the Axe Knights, neutralize his axe with your whip and let two or three of your own fly and tear him to shreds, and since you're standing in place, the medusas can't hit you as well ). Having a full healthbar enables me to go all out on him, which is the way that i like to tackle that fight.

honestly feel like it's the superior choice, since axe is as strong in the fight proper as it is on the trek thru drac's Gallery of Dead Scrubs. CV1's axe knights have nuances that went ignored in later, less-attentive installments - their insistence on staying precisely one electron out of whip range, their shield reducing head-on damage as well as making subweapons bounce off - and crosses runs afoul of both, while axes shut down the entire setpiece.

i learned about the "critical hit" glitch ages ago from bug-hunting legend david wonn, who noted axes could one-shot axe knights and white dragons but was not sure why. speedrunners have a trick on the mummies; a hit that lands while their sprites are overlapping alternates on each conflicting sprite every single frame, swiftly racking up such ungodly damage that they die instantly. i think this happens with the knights and dragons because they have inert parts (knight's shield, dragon's neckbones) that can overlap with the damageable main sprite. one hit when they're positioned just-so and omae wa mou shindeiru

Akumajou Dracula, game of strategy. Classic balance of tension and flexibility. Still routinely surprised by others' tactics for the historic trouble spots. Rather like the following year's R-Type, in that way, down to the loop tightening the screws a little too much at times (catacombs )

Gave the two-step a go last night, definitely works! Will make the final VS showdown significantly less ball-breaking, thanks again sharc.

i've always judged the game harshly for those lingering inelegant bits that stick in one's craw, but it seems like every last one can be circumvented. even the stopwatch isn't strictly necessary in clocktower, because with the right start and a whip-cancel out of fall stun, the igor jamboree is completely deterministic so long as you keep the groovin

the last remaining loop 1 frustration for me is unpredictable deaths when the first phantom bat elects to fast swoop while you're mid-jump. i got curious about any discoveries from speedrunners that might be applicable - seems like you can stroll right under it unharried every time so long as you rev up and book it down the ramparts out of the gate. i always puttered around a bit to clean up some extra hearts, but with no clock stoppin needed, that'd be a small sacrifice for a consistent no-miss.

As always, had a million little giffable things happen en-route. I know an action game is good when I can't leave my goddamn share button alone.

wanted a taste of blood and got a mouthful of its own for the trouble. nice. better luck next time, you doped-up sky-rat

[BIL]

the last remaining loop 1 frustration for me is unpredictable deaths when the first phantom bat elects to fast swoop while you're mid-jump. i got curious about any discoveries from speedrunners that might be applicable - seems like you can stroll right under it unharried every time so long as you rev up and book it down the ramparts out of the gate.

I can't remember when, but at some point I noticed that as long as you're holding [up+left] from the map screen, this guy will let you past every time. I figured it must be deterministic, since I never saw speedrunners mention getting bad RNG there. That's an excellent tip about jumping to draw the second's potential fireball! I guess by that point, the tiniest input variance will come into play.

I've never tried learning the critical hit on Dracula, but I love nailing 4-3's tunnel dragons with it. (I call the first one the CHUB CRUSHER because he's only halfway extended before eating my WHOPPER w/CHEEZE )



Mummy Mash is good shit too, I'm pretty unorganised there but basically I skirmish with 'em in the pincer for a bit, then try to get knocked clear and WHAM! The screen displays a distinct absence of dread BANDAGEMANS. I got so used to doing this, I flat-out forgot you could just cheese 'em from the Meatbrick like when I was SCURRED bitd. Fuckin Stockholm Sydrome, I can't do em like that.

A sobering reminder of less-helpful glitching feat. Boney-kun I always trigger this one, for ol' times' sake. Works on all revisions!



I've never seen it happen with any other enemies, I wonder wtf is up.

[FinalBaton]

That is BERSERKER BONEY-KUN he be running at you, laughing maniacally : ''JaJaJaJaJa''

I observed 2 boney-kun behaviour this week in CV3 that I didn't know about.

Firstly in first level 1-02 right as you enter the castle : I put down the controller to do something else and I had forgotten to pause, boney-kun marched on me but continued and exited the frame! never to return. that's funny. ''screw this sappy place, I'm outta here! going to da pub""

ALso realized that sword-wielding boney-kuns walk back from holy water fire. never noticed that!

[BIL]

That's my headcanon from now on. Boney got into the Super Mummy Bros' stash of OBLIVION HERB (vintage 2600BC) and discovered an embalming fluid-fuelled world of NO PAIN

[copy-paster]

Ninja Gaiden 1CC! for the past few years I've always wanted to do this. Very clutch moments during Demon fight and made it through Act 6 with 0 lives

[trap15]

Disqualified for using filters

Good job though

[BIL]

Welcome aboard.

Interested to note Sunset Riders' loop mirrors that of director Hideyuki Tsujimoto's earlier Super Contra, down to both being Japan-exclusive features. Both essentially set the difficulty DIP to max. So all those years I was 1LCing maxed Super and wondering about the loop (didn't realise it was Japan-exclusive) are coming in handy!

Difference being, while the loop toughens the mild and very user-friendly Sunset only moderately, Super gets fuckin balls hard on top of being a giant pain the ass. Just like Sunset, enemy aggression is dialled up. Unlike Sunset, which interestingly for a Contra-style, uses set enemies only, relying on its HURRY UP! birb to shitcan idlers... Super's spawn rate goes through the goddamn roof, and with the RNG die spinning furiously, a lot more gunners get a crack at you.

As always, Super comes with heaving caveats, but also as always, it can be controlled... provided one possesses the prurient ardour of a mad professor devising the optimal playlist for his afternoon fuck. Also, holy fuck, it's got a mood. It doesn't have the design sense to rank with Saigo, Dai or Rygar, but the airs of an AHNULD-fixated, floor-shaking late 80s AMUSEMENT MACHINE won't diminish. The loop's st1 actually reflects the premise of an infested base full of rabid armed zombies, battling up its rugged fortified slope with knives and bullets raining down.

A STORM OF CUNTS (■｀W´■)

Spoiler

LOOK GIMME A FUCKIN MINUTE FFS (■｀W´■)

Spoiler

BLIMEY THATS GRAPHIC (■｀W´■) (among MUH FAVE zako killframes... just wish they didn't recycle it for the xenos!)



Undead bodies errywhurr. st2 is a madhouse, rest never lets up. Ala Saigo, the blistering intensity goes great with the short (~7min per loop) runtime. The BAKOWWW SFX and violently crunching guitar/drum sound make the game exponentially cooler at high volume. Not a true classic - among late 80s icons, Saigo, Dai, Rygar and Shinobi all outclass on both razor-sharp response and long-term technique, while Strider's more spectacular at a fraction of the jank - but taken on its mad professor terms, it's a formidably loud, aesthetic one.

[Herr Schatten]

Ninja Gaiden 1CC!

Good job!

Seeing that screen with the Demon again I can't help notice that the floor is clearly set up to be able to move the huge boss around horizontally without the player noticing that it's the background that moves. I wonder what made them drop the movement and make the boss static eventually.

[Blinge]

Disqualified for using filters

Oh my god. it's so ugly!!!

also -

[copy-paster]

At least it ain't billinear filtering lol

BTW, official SNK discord server will held Metal Slug 3 1CC contest in 2 weeks from now with some interesting prizes. Do I have to go back to the hell again?

[BIL]

also -

My poor Fio-chan (;｀ω´;) Broads should be making sammiches in the kitchen, not upon the Hellish Battlefield!



See?!

An aside, dynamite chick could've easily made player character, or boss at absolute minimum, though the Boy's Club Wild West aesthetic is ultimately worth preserving. "Alright, Ma'am." You want R2RKMF cheesecake, let's hope Mystic Warriors isn't too far off! or Zero Team obviously!

Spoiler

Reminds me of Rondo/Nocturne styling, actually. Particularly the latter's Salomes. I wonder if there was any staff crossover? Sunset in general is exceptionally characterful. I like to toy with the idea that the common bandits' masks and colour-coded behaviours are a nod to Rolling Thunder's Maskers, haha.

Spoiler

Glad there's no fuckin bats, just HURRY UP birb, the heir to Super Contra's HEY KIDS, STOP ALL THE MILKING fireball, neither of whom I can imagine a cognisant player ever seeing.

I'm at that point I sometimes reach, with three-four runs I wanna record nearing completion. Thought I'd complete the ADD frenzy by returning to Saigo. I still don't consider my 1LC runs complete, with st6-1 remaining overly scary. Returning from Super Contra, and thus feeling roughly six gigatons lighter, it became really clear how sheer POWER OF ANGER can demolish Ryuichis and Monks. Getting some very good results with Grenade.



^ the katana's kill frames come out quick in front, it's tighter than it looks. With handling this impeccably fine, though, it's all pleasure/NO PAIN. Forget wresting the controls - between the response and the free contact, you can do just about anything if your execution is deft and your principles are sound.

Hard to feel too secure with the obvious vulnerability to kunais, though again, sheer targeted fury can largely obviate Greens and White Rains. Probably impossible to truly banish the spectre of lurking death, whether shooting or slashing, to its eternal credit. A Kage x Contra that soundly elevates both halves of the equation.

[Sumez]

Ninja Gaiden 1CC!

Hurry up, get on top of that thing and teabag it before it fades out!

[CaptainAhab]

A thread for difficult sidescrollers—excellent. I've been getting into Castlevania and Contra recently with the anniversary collections. I smashed my head into the wall one too many times playing Cuphead and decided to go for something a bit older and from my experience so far less punishing. I'm finding them REALLY fun... way, way more fun than I thought they'd be. Fingers crossed Konami releases a second Castlevania collection so the GBA and DS titles are unchained from the DS and Wii U eShop.

Anyone here had a chance to play Curse of the Moon 2 yet?

I've been a huge Metal Slug fan for a long time now and play the Anthology regularly on my Wii with a GameCube controller. Also just grabbed the Irem Arcade Hits collection for my Mac to play Gunforce and Gunforce II, which I've heard are good too.

Are we allowed to talk about beat 'em ups here, or is that for another thread? Another awesome genre, alone or with buddies...

[BIL]

Are we allowed to talk about beat 'em ups here?

Absolutely! Sidescrollers, topdown and beltscrolling are this thread's holy trinity.

Gunforce II is very cool, especially if you're into Metal Slug and Nazca's other IREM M92 stuff (Kaitei Daisensou, Undercover Cops, Air Duel). The raucous black-humoured mayhem will ring bells, to put it mildly (so many burning bodies and stock screams ). Absolutely screen-shredding sense of destructive power, with the industry-leading "defenestrated sniper" animation.

[Herr Schatten]

Anyone here had a chance to play Curse of the Moon 2 yet?

I played it a bit, but haven't even beaten episode 1 yet. The game kicks my butt hard, it feels much more difficult than the first.

I like that the individual characters play much more differently from each other than the quartet from CotM1 did. The downside of this is that certain levels and bosses seem much more tailored to certain characters. If you happen to lose the key character along the way, you can as well restart. The first game was much more flexible in this regard. I also think that the checkpoints are spaced too far apart, especially the ones before the bosses. You always have to cover a lot of ground until you can try again. Which you will. A lot.

I said it before, but I still hate it that 'retro style graphics' are inevitably synonymous with 'using the garish NES palette'. If you don't even try to mimic the other constraints, what's the point? I would have preferred it if CotM2 had upgraded to 16 bit visuals.

[bottino]

I said it before, but I still hate it that 'retro style graphics' are inevitably synonymous with 'using the garish NES palette'. If you don't even try to mimic the other constraints, what's the point? I would have preferred it if CotM2 had upgraded to 16 bit visuals.

Amen to that, even though I very much like the aesthetic of CotM. Fat chance of that happening, but I would love to see a CotM3 that's a spiritual sequel to Bloodlines/Vampire Killer.

I've been playing Akumajou Densetsu and I'm not really feeling it, primarily due to it's length and pacing; good game, but I think that it's not on the same level as the first game. I might as well say that it's a good example of developers trying to make a game better by mostly adding more content. I'm reasonably more familiar with this game than I was with og Dracula, but playing them in parallel has made me truly appreciate the original dangerously tight design. When I have a bit more time, I'll toss Master of Darkness into the mix as well, if anything just to see how well a Clone™ holds up to these games

But I'm yet to 1cc'ing it (currently playing with Ralph/Sylpha), so I'll hold my judgment of the game until that happens. And boy, am I looking forward to Dracula-Kun's Tetris adventures...

[BIL]

But I'm yet to 1cc'ing it (currently playing with Ralph/Sylpha), so I'll hold my judgment of the game until that happens. And boy, am I looking forward to Dracula-Kun's Tetris adventures...

Did you take the ghost ship? If so, you'll dodge the godawful Melty Blocks Daisakusen.

CVIII is the overindulgent double album following CVII's sophomore misstep. It often recalls, and occasionally outdoes the lean killer debut, back when Berumondo and Dorakyura were playing dive bars and crashing in Konami Man's living room... but with tons of added fluff, of highly varying quality, much of which you'll wanna trim from the playlist.

Best to go upper 1CC, then lower, IMO. Latter works well as a deliberately punishing, aesthetically glum Second Run. Less so on a first play, where upper's relative friendliness and brighter audiovisuals counteract the game's innately longer haul.

[CaptainAhab]

I've read elsewhere on these forums that people find going for high scores in run 'n guns like Metal Slug or Contra to be a snoozefest compared to shmupping, but I guess I've found myself playing these side scrolling games for survival first and foremost rather than for high scores. Do you folks go for speedruns or 1CCs then call it a day? Or do you also go for top scores?

I've liked what I've played of CV III, btw, but I'll need to spend some time with other titles before I could pass any serious judgment on it.

[BIL]

I like to play R2RKMFs for one-life clears. As a secondary goal, I try to get good enough for a relatively watchable, competent clear. To me, the pleasure of action gaming is partially aesthetic - AHNULD and STALLONE never dropped dead and popped back up halfway through their action flicks, so neither do my dudes.

Those action stars also whoop a lotta ass, so I try to do that too! I'm not a speedrunner (all respect to them), I just like efficiency and a bit of style. If I go for score/ranks, it's usually something recognised in-game, like The Firemen's "Fighter of Legend" award. But the play required for that is pretty much my idealised run anyway. Clear the game quickly and smoothly, with all targets neutralised - getting hit will cripple your bomb stock, so try not to! Result is a whole lot of Die Hard x Towering Inferno daredevilry

(needless to say, the mechanical foundation supporting the fireworks is vital - no degree of cool will make up for shitty controls, handling, camera, etc, and plenty of would-be classics are held back by sub-optimal foundations)

I've never encountered a R2RKMF I really wanted to play for score, nor one where conventional "good play" is subverted, ala Garegga's tactical sucides, but I'd be happy to try one out. Magic Sword is looking interesting, I need to get a 360 to play the Double Impact version...

Actually I'm wrong, I like Gigantic Army's scoring, though it's very barebones. Basically, clear stages quickly (= remaining time bonus), without getting hit (no damage powerdown = more firepower), while grabbing lots of items (max HP = restores give points instead). As with The Firemen, this involves playing how I like to anyway.

I respect scorers no matter their game - dedication is dedication - but high-level Slug, Shock Troopers et al isn't for me, with the extended milking. I kinda enjoy setting a points+time requirement, eg Metal Slug X, 5mil+, sub-30minutes. Even then though, in Slugs' case, the massively variable random point items interfere.

I wondered if Sunset Riders might be a little more interesting for score, as its enemies are strictly non-respawning... AFAIK there's nothing milkable, barring glitches. Even the annoying bonus rounds aren't too annoying in this context, since they're memorisable yet intense, though hoooly fuck it'd be rough to fail the last one. Referring to the Japanese version, which is two loops only - US/World loops infinitely like most Konami AC games.

[bottino]

Did you take the ghost ship?

Yep, been riding the scooby-doo cruise ship during my runs, which is kinda boring and occasionally I take a deep dive into the ocean for no reason other than the soporific nature of that stage, but at least it isn't the...

godawful Melty Blocks Daisakusen.

exactly.

CVIII is the overindulgent double album following CVII's sophomore misstep. It often recalls, and occasionally outdoes the lean killer debut, back when Berumondo and Dorakyura were playing dive bars and crashing in Konami Man's living room... but with tons of added fluff, of highly varying quality, much of which you'll wanna trim from the playlist.

Most definitely. The game really picks up when you enter the castle: there's a great amount of top tier design and strategic action to be found there - stairs fuckery and autoscrolling madness notwithstanding. And I think that it's last stage definitely outdoes Dracula's 1 final stretch, and it was a real joy putting all the pieces of that puzzle together.

Best to go upper 1CC, then lower, IMO. Latter works well as a deliberately punishing, aesthetically glum Second Run. Less so on a first play, where upper's relative friendliness and brighter audiovisuals counteract the game's innately longer haul.

In that sense, perhaps they took a little note from the Darius series? I wouldn't be surprise if that's the case.

It's weird how they placed big, clunky Alucard on the lower route, where there's lots of stage hazards and everything is cramped, which also makes his fireballs even less useful.

[WelshMegalodon]

I've never encountered a R2RKMF I really wanted to play for score, nor one where conventional "good play" is subverted, ala Garegga's tactical sucides, but I'd be happy to try one out.

Sailor Moon R has item drops that appear to be influenced by how much health you have when you reach their spawn points and possibly how long it took you to get there. Certain extends also seem to be impossible to receive if you don't use certain attacks - for example, I don't recall ever accruing more than six lives as Chibiusa, despite never dying.

According to this thread on Gamengai, there are also certain base point values in Denjin Makai that are multiplied when you're at low health. Riskier super moves yield higher point bonuses as well. I also recall some score items in Ghost Chaser Densei that only seem to spawn when you're using flashier moves, but I haven't seen anyone go into detail on those.

[BIL]

Haha, was itching to reference Denjin Makai before I hit your second paragraph. I recall Macaw calling Guardians "a tightrope of risk," always reminded me of Border Down and its less reserve lives = more points mechanic.

[copy-paster]

Rondo give you tremendous amount of score if you make it unscathed and 100 hearts, and 1UP for No Damage bonus, also gives you 20k extend each. Last time I no-missed this game I got 15 lives total, crazy stuff.

[BIL]

Ah yes, the Rondo/XX no-damage boss bonuses are very cool! Particularly with both games' unlockable "superplay" demonstrations for each boss takedown (charmingly titled "Technic" in SOTN iirc). Minor polishing touches like that give a lot of character to an action game. See also HOD rating your boss clear pose.

You can tell how proud I was to no-damage XX's Serpent here.

Also gives a little extra cachet to Rondo bosses' parting shots (which can't kill you, but will ruin your bonus).

[LichbannMejolaro]

Even though it's not a old game, I saw some people talking about Battle Princess Madelyn (https://store.steampowered.com/app/6039 ... s_Madelyn/), and it look like a modern reimagination of Ghouls & Ghosts. I haven't tried yet, but most of the reviews complain about things that are staples on G&G, like heavy enemy respawn, the character flying away after a hit, and so on.

Edit: Just discovered that the game had a Kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ca ... ss-madelyn

For the goals they've reached, it seems that there's quite an amount of content. I'll get it on Switch and give it a try.


Also, sorry if this is not the place to post this, but it seemed to fit perfectly the subject of the thread.

[CIT]

I've read elsewhere on these forums that people find going for high scores in run 'n guns like Metal Slug or Contra to be a snoozefest compared to shmupping, but I guess I've found myself playing these side scrolling games for survival first and foremost rather than for high scores. Do you folks go for speedruns or 1CCs then call it a day? Or do you also go for top scores?

I go for the 1CC with R2RKMF games. Best one for score in my opinion is Strider 2, because it rewards you for speed and efficiency, which is exactly what any Ninja game should be about!

I also really liked the fruit-chaining mechanic in The Adventure of Little Ralph, but as it turns out there are some spots where you can abuse suicides to play the same section over again and score, which makes it boring to play for score for me. Still a really challenging and kick-ass game though!

[BIL]

Ralph is outstanding, you can tell New Corp were hardened Game Center veterans... airtight mechanics and motoring pace. For console original IPs, I always consider it, Taromaru and (for Cabal/Wild Guns-style action) Sin & Punishment that generation's three absolute killers. There was other good stuff, for sure, but that trio can go up against the absolute best of the 8/16bit eras.

Even though it's not a old game, I saw some people talking about Battle Princess Madelyn (https://store.steampowered.com/app/6039 ... s_Madelyn/), and it look like a modern reimagination of Ghouls & Ghosts. I haven't tried yet, but most of the reviews complain about things that are staples on G&G, like heavy enemy respawn, the character flying away after a hit, and so on...

Also, sorry if this is not the place to post this, but it seemed to fit perfectly the subject of the thread.

Hard Scrolling Action is eternal. This thread is as estimably ancient or cutting-edge modern as you want it to be. Glanced at the trailer, looks like a sturdy DaiMakaimura tribute for sure.

Speaking of new stuff, Steel Assault is gonna be great.