From Software 'n such

[ACSeraph]

Nioh seems to be either a love it or hate it kind of game. I don't usually hear opinions that fall in the middle. Still haven't tried it myself but intend to some day.

I'm pretty in the middle on Nioh. The core action gameplay is absolutely phenomenal, and the character creator in the sequel is second to none but almost everything else slowly chips away from my interest until I inevitably drop the game and never return. It drives me insane because there is a fucking fantastic video game in there, but it is buried in six feet of garbage that you have to continually rifle through to engage with it.

Exactly the same feeling here, but the good was enough I was willing to accept the bad. The Diablo style loot system is really the biggest stain on the game for me, especially with how pointless farming other players "phantoms" made it. I wonder how the sequel improved upon it...

[Stevens]

Five hours into Salt and Sanctuary. It's great.

It also has a snazzy bestiary that has the enemies you've encountered, a short bio, how times you have killed them, and how many times they've killed you.

The further I go the less linear it feels, especially considering it's 2d. There is the occasional "door is locked from this side" which naturally where your shortcuts are, but areas aren't locked behind getting a high jump or shit like that.

Tonight I was basically exploring three areas simultaneously. Wound up killing another boss, but I could have gone further into the area I am now currently exploring before finding and killing said boss. There was nothing stopping me, I just chose that direction.

I also found a few strong as fuck regular enemies who have kicked my ass a few times. Parries, now that I am getting the timing down, are a lot of fun. You get a cool animation - run through with sharp/pointy things, or a head smash if its blunt. I've only seen a few but when you land one it feels like it should.

[Blinge]

[Marc]

Five hours into Salt and Sanctuary. It's great.

It also has a snazzy bestiary that has the enemies you've encountered, a short bio, how times you have killed them, and how many times they've killed you.

The further I go the less linear it feels, especially considering it's 2d. There is the occasional "door is locked from this side" which naturally where your shortcuts are, but areas aren't locked behind getting a high jump or shit like that.

Tonight I was basically exploring three areas simultaneously. Wound up killing another boss, but I could have gone further into the area I am now currently exploring before finding and killing said boss. There was nothing stopping me, I just chose that direction.

I also found a few strong as fuck regular enemies who have kicked my ass a few times. Parries, now that I am getting the timing down, are a lot of fun. You get a cool animation - run through with sharp/pointy things, or a head smash if its blunt. I've only seen a few but when you land one it feels like it should.

Interested to see if you stick with it. I though for a few hours that it was superb, but it died off very quickly for me and became repetitive in a way I didn't with even the dullest (relatively speaking) of From's games. I gave up around the Red Hall of Cages, I'd just lost all enthusiasm.

In an ideal world, I'd go back and give Nioh another go, but my god, the pile of shame now....

[Stevens]

Seven hours in.

I will keep you posted Marc. Based on my exploration I believe the Red Hall is part of

Spoiler

Storm Castle

, but haven't confirmed as I just started that area. The difficulty as of that area seems to be ramping up as well.

I've fought five bosses so far. I thought skill check

Spoiler

Sodden Knight

was a great first boss. Boss 2

Spoiler

Queen of Smiles

I also liked a lot. That said then I ran into

Spoiler

Cyclops Kraeken and False Jester

and it was more of the same as far as how I took them down. I also beat both of them on my first try.

That said I thought the

Spoiler

Mad Alchemist

was great. Probably the best fight so far. Took me a few tries and the fight was fast and aggressive on both ends. Really solid fight.

Starting class was chef, which has morphed into an assassin/dex build with an ok dagger. I can use some swords too, although I have no idea if this is a good build or not. I think I said it in my previous post but I've avoided magic and prayers completely this run. I don't know if that makes the game harder or easier, but considering SnS seems to be an homage to From's games I'll bet it makes it easier.

More exploring later.

Edit -

Made it a bit into the

Spoiler

castle. Main chamber

followed by the first sanctuary and shortcut. Was getting my ass beat as there are some bruisers in there, but I discovered a way to make my weapons better and that has helped quite a bit.

That said I got cocky at one point and just like a From game got destroyed by a few weaker enemies in two seconds.

One of the things I have been doing while playing? Making pen and paper maps, sort of looks like a Zork walk through. With the amount of ways you can go at any given time it has helped me a lot. Also I'm sort of digging it.

[Blinge]

So I got the bad (i guess) ending of Hollow Knight earlier

Spoiler

went back to check the abyss after getting kingsoul but didn't check the whole floor loool just the bottom left corner

As a game that seems to be SotN and Dark Souls' love child..
.. I'd recommend it it's bloody brilliant.
Bit of a slow burn to start but it goes places.

Edit: Ok, did the stuff and fought the TLB.
Fucking awesome.

[Stevens]

Further into SnS.

Spoiler

Red Hall

- I see why someone could lose interest here. Definite difficulty spike. Tougher enemies, and if you don't watch your step it is a long way down. Really big level too, easily two to three times the size of any before it.

The boss

Spoiler

Tree of Men

was tough but I eventually took it down. Well designed too.

Again I have two areas to explore. I've delved into

Spoiler

Hager's Cavern

, but still have more to do there.

Edit - Completed

Spoiler

Hager's Cavern

, just as tough as the area that preceded it. A fair number of deaths there.

Attack speed is important in this game and if you get too aggressive with a weapon slower on the draw you can get stun locked by as few as a single enemy. It is as if the game is saying to you "You're not mashing your way out of this, you need to retreat and regroup". And while it is rare, getting surrounded by two or more enemies with quick draw weapons is a very fast death. Granted it has only happened to me when I've been careless so..

Still running a great sword/dagger build, but I am definitely missing out on a lot of weapons and armor. I use the dagger as much as I can, but sometimes having the sword helps. I haven't touched heavy armor, whips, pikes, bows/crossbows, guns, axes, or hammers and that is just off the top of my head. Oh there was a scythe I used briefly. Also haven't touched magic or prayers.

The boss of the cavern seemed like he may have been on his way from

Spoiler

Yharnam

. This game is always called Dark Souls in 2D but it is more accurately Fromsoft in 2D. There are just as many things that remind me of Bloodborne.

Speaking of the cavern boss, what a fast paced fight. The boss fights in this game seem to be at their best when one of you will be dead in 30 seconds or less. I know on its surface that may not sound great, but here it just works. He killed me five or six times quickly, but when I got him it was just as quick. Up to this point I have to say only two bosses have been meh. And they're the two I killed on my first try so go figure.

I've just entered the

Spoiler

Mire of Stench

which is SnS's version of everyone's favorite vacation spot in Lordran -

Spoiler

Blighttown

.

[guigui]

As a game that seems to be SotN and Dark Souls' love child..
.. I'd recommend it it's bloody brilliant.
Bit of a slow burn to start but it goes places.

Hollow Knight is the sh*t when it comes to 2D Soulslike, it had me hooked way better than Salt'n'Sanctuary did. If not already done, Steven's next game for sure.

[Sumez]

Hollow Knight is pretty sweet, but not really for any reasons that makes it feel like a From game to me. Its similarities to From Software are extremely superficial.

[Stevens]

Been a few days and I am nearing the end of my journey on Salt Island. Sadly most of the bosses feel susceptible to

I left off in Blighttown. Good area, boss was ok.
Far Beach is a smaller area that connects two or three larger areas. No boss.
Cran's Pass is just that. A small pass with an optional boss fight that connects two other areas. Fight was pretty good.
Ziggurat - Took me a while to get through cause I didn't see something really obvious. I won't lie it was about now the malaise was starting to set in. Two bosses that once again fell to the same strat.
Sky Castle - Cool small area with a pretty worth it optional boss.
Ruined Temple - Again small area with what was the most original boss encounter in a bit.

Spoiler

It's two ghosts that you can't hurt, but there is an axe you have to attack.

Pitch Woods - Another small area with a meh boss. And these annoying fucking murdercorns.

Siam Lake - Ash Lake? Wow. The Witch of the Lake, even though I haven't finished it yet, is probably going to be the best fight in the game. Really well done and fair. She killed me 28 times before I got her.

Salt Alkymancery - Gank fight! And a pretty decent one, but...

I should be clear - When I say a boss is meh I mean it just isn't all that fun to fight. A lot of the bosses in this game can be abused using the same strats and for some reason, I don't quite know what it is, just feels a little lack luster at times. I think the bosses in this game suffer from quantity over quality. I would have preferred more fleshed out encounters with 15 bosses or so instead of the less fleshed out 23.

I beat many on my first try, and while they had cool designs, were instantly forgettable because of that. Is it any wonder why I liked the Witch the most?

I will finish it up of course, I have come this far. Would I recommend it? I don't know. I feel like it has gotten a bit long in the tooth at this point, but I also went through everything. Apparently I learned I picked the hardest starting class (Chef) which is this game's waste of skin. I went up the assassin tree, light armor, and used a great sword for tough parts and lately settled on a threaded cane of sorts that I've had some fun with.

Maybe a ranged build would make me feel different? I don't think a different melee build would change much just cause that wouldn't change the mechanics from my first play through. Perhaps a more streamlined path through the game would change how I feel?

[Blinge]

Hollow Knight is pretty sweet, but not really for any reasons that makes it feel like a From game to me. Its similarities to From Software are extremely superficial.

All in the atmosphere, worldbuilding, hands-off narrative.
textbook souls.

Spoiler

I mean, the story of the king wanting to preserve his dying kingdom against nature itself and making dubious sacrifices to do so? It's almost the same as Gwyn

Also, the recover your stuff by having one chance (i think? i never failed..) to return to your corpse.
The dream sigil mechanic thing which reminds me of Insight.
The heal being something that requires timing and is a risk, not a menu thing.

Yeah, I would stop short of calling it a "soulslike" but I would be surprised if it wasn't an influence.

[Steamflogger Boss]

MSFA

Make Shmupmerica Fight Again

Oh and Hollow Knight is a fucking banger.

[Blinge]

Make Shmupmerica Fight Again

i'm tired

[Steamflogger Boss]

Make Shmupmerica Fight Again

i'm tired

Does that mean you are ready for cuddles in bed?

[FinalBaton]

I got front-row tickets for Sumez v Blinge Mania VII, and that shit is HOT!!!!

[Stevens]

We are born of the Salt, made men by the Salt, undone by the Salt. Fear the old Salt.

I have come to the end of my journey.

I only had the Crypt of the Dead Gods and the final area.

The Crypt was cool enough, the mandatory boss was again meh. The option boss of the area is a Shadow of Yharnam style affair that worked pretty well, glad I found them.

The final area only consists of the final boss. For all my complaints definitely a fitting encounter to end such a grand quest. The ending, at least the one I chose I thought was excellent.

I did a little bit of research and learned that vanilla SnS is considered very unbalanced. Some weapons are great, some are trash. Heavy armor in vanilla is apparently worthless, glad I went with light. In fact the last two bosses I went at in my skivvies.

Fashion Salts applies here.

Anyway some more digging and I came across a mod that re balances all of the weapons, armor, and a bunch of other things about the game. I don't see myself going right back at it, but it is nice to know that should I want to play again down the road it is an option. An option I will most likely take advantage of.

That said I recommend Salt and Sanctuary with reservations. The level design, specifically how the areas connect to one another, is on par worth anything From has done. They've also created a vibrant world chock full of lore and history. Item descriptions, NPC conversations/quests, and the bestiary really flesh the island out for the player. There is a lot to digest on the story front.

Just wish the bosses were a bit better.

[Sumez]

All in the atmosphere, worldbuilding, hands-off narrative.
textbook souls.

Well, that's also exactly what I was talking about when I said superficial stuff.
I think the game immediately comes across almost like a Souls ripoff in that department, but I also think it has entirely its own style to it. While Souls has that bleak and gloomy atmosphere, Hollow Knight quickly turns out to be a lot more... cute. Almost like a Ghibli or Pixar setting. The interesting bug world it takes place in is what really drew me into the game, and it's very unique.
Gameplay wise it was the same metroidvania we've played a billion times. For better and worse. But it was handled very well.
The only thing that I really didn't like about the game was how it manages to lose most of its appeal for the second half as the game world gets progressively less "mysterious", your character gets overpowered, and the new areas you find never really pose a challenge.

Also, the recover your stuff by having one chance (i think? i never failed..) to return to your corpse.

I never really figured out how that system works. Outside of boss fights it's pretty rare to die at all in the game, compared to the Souls series, and whatever it is the game wants you to pick up, I think that's kind of a worldbuilding thing also, not really impacting the game system? At least there's an impulse to do it, but it never feels as risky as in Souls. It's definitely taking inspiration from there, but hell so is Shovel Knight.

[Blinge]

Does that mean you are ready for cuddles in bed?

I was, but no one came..

Stop trying to put me in a ring with Sumez GUIZE. Hollow knight isn't any sort of hill I want to die on. Also, we agree that it's not a soulslike

Well, that's also exactly what I was talking about when I said superficial stuff.

Your choice of 'extremely superficial' suggests you can just wave away the similarities as unimportant: I don't think you can.

I think the game immediately comes across almost like a Souls ripoff in that department, but I also think it has entirely its own style to it. While Souls has that bleak and gloomy atmosphere, Hollow Knight quickly turns out to be a lot more... cute. Almost like a Ghibli or Pixar setting.

Ghibli? for sure, if you're talking the darker moments of Nausicaa..
I mean.. did you see where the little knight was born?

In terms of difficulty, I had repeat deaths in some areas, can't think where. In fact I struggle to remember any particular area.
Yo doing the dream version of that Mage Master was tough AF! But then that's in its own bubble where there's no penalty for dying.
When did you play the game? They've added new stuff including that fight ^

Really the biggest point in favour of souls combat is the timed healing and i'll assume that landed because Sumez didn't answer it.

As for souls x Sotn.. Upon reflection that does seem a lazy and silly way to describe it on my part. After all, hollow knight has less character customisation than even Sotn does, and you don't level at all. Nevermind the importance/customisation of your equipment in a souls game.
..and then there was that time when the game suddenly became super meat boy

[Marc]

..and then there was that time when the game suddenly became super meat boy

Eek. I've had this game in my pile forever, but that one line might have just put me off, or at least put it to the bottom of the mound of 2D platform/MV tyres I've got to get through.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

..and then there was that time when the game suddenly became super meat boy

Eek. I've had this game in my pile forever, but that one line might have just put me off, or at least put it to the bottom of the mound of 2D platform/MV tyres I've got to get through.

It's an optional segment near the end of the game (though with the qualifier that there is a unique boss hidden behind it). You can beat the game without ever engaging with it.

[Blinge]

Need it for TLB though?

[Sumez]

Your choice of 'extremely superficial' suggests you can just wave away the similarities as unimportant: I don't think you can.

Or maybe you're just misreading. I'm saying it's superficial, but I didn't mean that it's unimportant. The presentation is what really sets the game apart from the thousand other games that are otherwise just like it. I thought I made that clear.

Really the biggest point in favour of souls combat is the timed healing and i'll assume that landed because Sumez didn't answer it.

Like a lot of other positive "souls-like" elements (such as the crystal flask/estus style healing items as opposed to consumable inventory items) I'm filing this under good game design taught by the Souls series that a lot more games than just "souls-likes" should just steal indiscriminately (as a lot of them do).

I'm not arguing that Hollow Knight didn't take a ton of inspiration from the Souls series, it's pretty obvious that it did. Looking at the core game, I just think it's much much more of a traditional indie metroidvania than something akin to an actual From Software game.

[Blinge]

I'm not arguing that Hollow Knight didn't take a ton of inspiration from the Souls series, it's pretty obvious that it did. Looking at the core game, I just think it's much much more of a traditional indie metroidvania than something akin to an actual From Software game.

100%

[Blinge]

and the new areas you find never really pose a challenge.

I think Deepnest is the only challenging area that comes to mind. Place gives me the heebie jeebies.

I guess you weren't including bosses in new areas, but did you try
-The King's Palace
- Challenge of Fools
- Nightmare Grimm?

[Sumez]

Yeah I wasn't thinking of bosses are much as the areas as a whole (the TLB is pretty awesome, honestly). Deepnest was the last real nice place, and from that point on is where the game took a turn for me, and became very trivial.
There's the super meat boy'esque area, but it feels so out of place in the game that it's hard to really judge it in the context.

I did beat all the colusseum challenges, but they are honestly really horrible and unnecessarily frustrating. For most of the them the only really difficult section tends to be in the very end.
They drag on for ages and mostly aren't really hard, but then one fight setup will appear really late that pretty much will kill you if it catches you off guard, which makes practicing for it painful and annoying moreso than fun and genuinely challenging as you go through all the initial easy fights that aren't really interesting. Fortunately the game doesn't really force you to do it, and I only had to do it out of my own OCD.

There's a postgame boss rush which has the same issue, spending like half an hour taking you through super easy bosses you've already beaten, only to subsequently face one you've never seen before with no way of gauging its pattern.

[Blinge]

There's a postgame boss rush which has the same issue, spending like half an hour taking you through super easy bosses you've already beaten, only to subsequently face one you've never seen before with no way of gauging its pattern.

Oh great that's up next for me ahah
Had the same feeling about the Colosseum challenges.
The wall-jump fight vs aerial enemies while you can't touch the floor, specifically.

As for the SuperMeatboy section.. Yeah it's a bit bizarre but it still tests how good you are at hollow knight's movement mechanics.

[Sumez]

Oh yeah, I didn't really mind that segment at all. It was kind of cool, just not what i had in mind for the game's "final gauntlet", and I can see it maybe throwing some other people off. Precision platforming appears to be a bit of a divisive subgenre.

My original thoughts right after playing the game btw.

[CStarFlare]

Occasionally I think of the King's Field games, grab an ISO and think "this is really cool" until I die every 10 minutes and never make it to the second save point.

I've been trying to crack King's Field (the second one from a Japanese standpoint) and I both really want to and just can't - it's just slightly too janky for me. Is there a modern equivalent that doesn't lag or have terrible hitboxes? I went on a bit of a google search last night and found Legend of Grimrock/2 and Dungeons & Darkness and neither really feels right.

[Sumez]

I really recommend going for it anyway. It does take some time to get into, but it's really rewarding!

There IS a "modern" remake, using From's own Sword of Moonlight engine for Windows PCs, and I think its free too? But I can't really speak for it. I can speak for the US PS1 release - it's great.

[Blinge]

Nah the SwordofMoonlight remake is for the OG Japanese King's Field, not 2.

It's also not very good. It seems good, but theres little things that are way off, like the final boss being an absurd tank that will not die, with nothing else in the game offering any challenge any more. Also no infinite grind spots like the original had, even though I don't think you need those spots in the original.

Edit: I don't think King's Field trilogy has bad hitboxes, actually.. Maybe you need to swing a bit more downwards?
The early game is slow AF but once you get a source of healing, your growth becomes exponential...