How do you feel about the digital only future of consoles?

[Steamflogger Boss]

It's beatable, but barely. One of the most frustrating game experiences I had in awhile because I liked the game but it was released in a terrible state. It simply hadn't been patched yet when I was playing through it.

[Udderdude]

PS5 digital only model is mostly there because it's going to cost a lot even without the 4K Blu-ray drive. Anyway, I refuse to pay full price for digital copies of games. On console and PC. There's just too many trade-offs that it's literally not worth as much as a physical copy. (This is assuming no nonsense like always online DRM or one-time-use serial codes, etc.)

[RIP-Felix]

Whatever happened to being satisfied with a balanced game that took 2-3 days to complete, an RPG taking 1-2 weeks at the most?

Has anyone played 1945 Air Force (Moble game)? It's a shakedown built on the bones of what could be a great game. I have been playing this for a few years now. After about the first 30 levels the pace of play slows to a crawl unless you pay. Just long enough for you to get hooked. You pretty much have to watch ads and gather medals from events to earn better planes, gems, module to upgrade your planes, wingmen, and special weapons. The balancing is so crippled that it takes hundreds of hours to earn enough upgrades to advance just a few levels. Skill has nothing to do with it. It's an endless conveyor belt of upgrades and levels with enemies following similar patterns and unfairly increasing in HP/damage. If the same mechanics were balanced such that the game took 100 hours to complete, I would pay $50 and it'd be my favorite SHMUP. It's a great game fatally crippled by obvious greed. I'd have to sink 4 hours a day every day for the next 10 years, and watch every optional add possible, to beat it. Then they'd just patch it with more levels and merging options. If I put $50 into the micro-transactions offered I wouldn't advance very far at all. I'd have to sink hundreds into it, maybe more. That is the future of all console gaming, if something doesn't change.

I hope "III" (Triple I, for Indie) can become the haven for creativity and balanced game play that AAA has left void. Otherwise the console is doomed. Instead of creating the conditions under which creativity and teamwork thrive, they've become addicted to games as a service, subscription based models that trap gamers into years of perpetual micro-transactions. I lost a friend to WOW in 2004, didn't see him much over the following 2 years, then I left for college. It was just a genera in 2004, now it's every game! It's like an epidemic destroying creativity in the gaming industry while stringing out gamers on season passes and exclusive armor. I want my industry back. I want my friends back!

If developing 4k photo realism, ray-tracing, and blockbuster cinematic sequences into games means we have to sacrifice single payment models, balance & a reasonable time commitment, then I'd rather they scale back. Smaller teams, smaller games, simpler graphics, more creativity, better hooks, new and improved genres. How many times can they recreate the AAA shooter and milk 2-3 years of micro-transactions? That shit's so played out.

[Seraphic]

Have not been on in about a week and nice to see the thread took off with a lot of interesting viewpoints.

Eh, it's inevitable and I think you're being hyperbolic. PS4 and XBO stuff goes on sale all the time digitally. Hell, I'm sick of getting Days of Play, PS Days, whatever sale emails.

I would argue that without the second hand/used game market PS/XB games would also go on sale far less often and might one day reach Nintendo level of arrogance (our games are made with love so they are worth more).
Because let's be honest, with ALL digital that is what they are working toward as you will have no other option. Would game developers/hardware manufactures rather earn their cut based on a game sale of $20 or $60?

[ASDR]

Not sure on the % of games with day one patches but usually it isn't needed to be able to play through the game.

I think most games have day one patches. I never know how required they are since I obviously never play any games without applying the patch, but I recently got Wolfenstein Youngblood a day or two earlier and it was beyond broken. Like game crashing and textures not loading broken. And even after the day 1 patch it had major gameplay issues, like no checkpoints in massive missions. About a month or two later they released a patch addressing most of the issues. If you notice a problem you can bet the developers who work on the game >40h/week for years know about it. They just lack the money or motivation to actually finish the game before release.

Playing a lot of 360 games currently reminded me of how that system had a 5MB update limit. Takes a second for the patch to download. Games like RDR2, Doom 2016 and Dirt Rally 2 on PS4 had >40GB downloads. Like what, did you have to replace every single asset? Accidentally swapped all 1s and 0s? Encoded all images with the wrong codec?

Whatever happened to being satisfied with a balanced game that took 2-3 days to complete, an RPG taking 1-2 weeks at the most?

One of my biggest issues with today's games. I often take a game from the shelf, think "this looks like fun!", but then wonder, will it still be fun a week in / 25h later? I played 100h games where I felt every minute was well spent, but most games can at least be cut in half. This is especially the case with JRPGs. There just seems to be this obligation to make them 50-80h long. And that really doesn't do most games any favors. It just exposes that maybe your combat system and your story aren't interesting enough to sustain a 100h game.

[BuckoA51]

Honestly it feels like we're really being pushed in this direction either deliberately or just because of how things worked out, but there's really big advantages to digital on a lot of platforms now..

On PC - Well Steam lets you play wherever you are without needing to remember to bring a disc, it's super convenient for that. Physical releases of new games on PC really started to die when blu-ray never caught on as a storage medium for PC software, there's just not enough room on DVDs any more.

On Switch - Swapping game cards is fine if you're playing at home, but who wants to take a load of game cards with you to the hairdressers or office or wherever you play your switch on the go?

On Xbox - Buy the digital version we will, most times, let you play the game on PC too. Prefer a physical copy? Then you can only play on your Xbox.

I'm more interested what will become of all these game subscription models. Right now devs are getting a good deal from them, but what about when the market settles down and there's only one or two such services left? What then?

[Steamflogger Boss]

Not sure on the % of games with day one patches but usually it isn't needed to be able to play through the game.

I think most games have day one patches. I never know how required they are since I obviously never play any games without applying the patch, but I recently got Wolfenstein Youngblood a day or two earlier and it was beyond broken. Like game crashing and textures not loading broken. And even after the day 1 patch it had major gameplay issues, like no checkpoints in massive missions. About a month or two later they released a patch addressing most of the issues. If you notice a problem you can bet the developers who work on the game >40h/week for years know about it. They just lack the money or motivation to actually finish the game before release.

Playing a lot of 360 games currently reminded me of how that system had a 5MB update limit. Takes a second for the patch to download. Games like RDR2, Doom 2016 and Dirt Rally 2 on PS4 had >40GB downloads. Like what, did you have to replace every single asset? Accidentally swapped all 1s and 0s? Encoded all images with the wrong codec?

To be fair I also say it's a backwards step. I'm not a fan of it. Just wanted to mention that I haven't had much trouble and the default mode for my consoles is offline. It is likely that this only gets worse.

I don't understand the large patching either. MTGArena seems to patch like that too. Every patch feels like it is over 3GB and I don't understand why but obviously I'm not a coder/programmer.

Whatever happened to being satisfied with a balanced game that took 2-3 days to complete, an RPG taking 1-2 weeks at the most?

I'm not exactly sure when (if?) JRPGs started bloating so hard but I looked up many of my PS1/2 favorites and, Dragon Quest aside they were almost all under 40 hours on HLTB. Not a perfect measure by any means but I found it interesting.

I seem to be one of the few people that can't stand that Witcher, MGS etc embraced the open world crap. Fucking hell that I felt MGS IV was a too long cinematic mess at times, it's a breeeeze compared to MGS V which I doubt I will ever bother to finish. Series lose some of their identity when they just become open world gameplay loop poop soup IMO.

I haven't looked at the back of game cases in awhile but I remember long game times used to be touted as a positive. I'd rather have a shorter well made experience.

[FinalBaton]

really don't care for open world type games. to me open world=lots of times wandering around not experiencing actual gameplay.

[neorichieb1971]

The disc is the weakest version of the game. Without the updates that follow you only get either a choppy version or a lack of DLC with the disc version.

However, that wouldn't be the case if the developers would release the game at the point its ready.
You don't get any return value back from your purchase. If I don't like a game after 30 minutes, I'm not likely to ever play it again. If I paid $60 or £50 for that game on download (how much are they to download i've never been interested?) I would be royally pissed off if 30 minutes of disappointment was all I got for my money. Therefore free demos need to be the order of the day for those people.

When it comes to value, I think if I can watch the game for free on you tube and I'm not going to get any extra value out of paying for it, I will watch it on youtube for free. I am guessing there are already "last of us 2 full solutions" on youtube. I find this whole youtube thing a bit strange because people still want to play the game for £50 instead of just watching it. Personally it puts me off buying lots of games and I will only buy games that require skill. I'm sure most of you are the same, what is the point of copying other peoples videos?

A console offline is a drastically different experience to one online these days. Its a shame that everyone is online, then the developers and hardware manufacturers would need to be more about quality control rather than shovelware you sometimes get these days.


The disc tray/lens mechanism is the most likely thing to break. Although I fear nuclear heat will come out of the new consoles.
A console without a disc tray is unlikely to be challenged for piracy (is this true? I am not sure if you can download a rom from the online store and then put it on a SD card or USB stick).


Thats it from me.

[Udderdude]

The disc is the weakest version of the game. Without the updates that follow you only get either a choppy version or a lack of DLC with the disc version.

Your best bet is to install all updates and DLC on an external HDD and use that as a backup, I guess. lol

You could even make backups of the backup HDD using drive mirroring software, although that's a far more advanced project.

[orange808]

On mobile platforms in the early-mid 00's, there was a certification process that we had to negotiate before a game could be added to the catalog. Patches and updates were welcome, but the service providers were the first customer service contact--and they made sure to CYA.

But, mobile was small and simple. They could afford to do that.

[djc5166]

IIRC you don't 'own' the games on your physical media either, it would just be cumbersome and probably pretty bad optics for publishers to try and revoke your licenses for physical media, short of defunct DRM on PC.

I was hoping once support for these older consoles starts being dropped, people would start to realize digital might not be the way to go, and the market would take care of itself. But now, I don't think your average person cares about older stuff. I don't know a single person that cares (or even knew) that the Wii shop shutdown, I also don't know anyone who still owns an xbox 360 or ps3.

[pablumatic]

I guess its working for now, but I still see a problem for console digital-only when facing the mobile gaming market. How long will consumers support the current full retail pricing model of digital console games when they get free or super-cheap mobile games on their smartphones?

This applies especially so to Nintendo IMO since they're competing directly for mobile gaming dollars.

[RIP-Felix]

I'm more interested what will become of all these game subscription models. Right now devs are getting a good deal from them, but what about when the market settles down and there's only one or two such services left? What then?

EA say's they will not have microtransactions in Star Wars - Squadrons. EA is on record as a micro transaction believer, so I wonder what brought this on? Maybe it signals a change of heart or there is sufficient resistance from gamers. I hope this becomes a trend.

I haven't looked at the back of game cases in awhile but I remember long game times used to be touted as a positive. I'd rather have a shorter well made experience.

I've watched one generation of gamers grow up playing 1 genera. Games that they played for years at a time, being completly molopolized by. Gaming equals Call of Duty, Fortnight, Overwatch, insert popular FPS. There are a few more in there - Minecraft, Skyrim, GTA V, The Witcher, Red Dead R, Boarderlands, etc. But how many genera are there really? Most of those are objective based open world first person action adventures/shooters. Just because you wield a sword doesn't mean it's different. Just because it's pixelated blocks doesn't make it unique. I enjoyed Skyrim and Borderlands 2, but they're following the same formula. Ohh, GTA is third person...same formula. Minecraft is creative...still first person. By contrast, take Tomb Raider, it wasn't the shooting that I liked. It was the puzzles. This is what I liked about the Metroid Prime series. There are ways of making the FPS genera less monotonous. But I think what I prefer about them is that they are smaller. They don't wear out my patience.

Ars technica did a War story interview with Andy Gavin, the co-founder of Naughty Dog. I found it interesting to hear him talk about how adding the third dimention took away the sense of danger, pacing and timing skill you had in 2D games. So when they were programming Crash Bandicoot in 3D, they had to come up with strategies to shrink and confine the extra space, in order to create those same game dynamics. I never really thought about that, but linear 3D platforms like Crash Bandicoot are among my fondest childhood games. Shrinking the open world of 3D down to create danger, skill, and platforming pace dynamics that were perfected in 2D was a challenge that required innovation. They had an artistic vision, no compromise attitude, and small enough team to flesh it out. Comparing what they accomplished graphically vs. a game like Tomb Raider, I give them mad respect. I can't help but wonder if modern consoles are too complex to allow innovation/creativity that thrives in small teams. Perhaps it just requires too many people to develop AAA titles now, and it's small group communication vs large team coordination that makes all the difference. Larger group dynamics often stifle creativity and cooperation, but could become unavoidable if the game is too difficult to develop in smaller, optimized groups. I think that's part of the reason AAA games haven't blown me away for a while. Some are fun, but they wear on my patience and don't keep my attention from start to finish like they used to. And it's not because I'm older. I only recently plated Medievil. I couldn't put it down and finished in it in one or two days. Now it's one of my favorites. I even bought the remake on PS4. So it's the games.

[spmbx]

Between this and the absudrity that is limited run, rare games, super rare games and god knows what else there is for switch i say bring on the digital-only console now! Completely sick of that physical collectards bullshit

[nmalinoski]

I'm more interested what will become of all these game subscription models. Right now devs are getting a good deal from them, but what about when the market settles down and there's only one or two such services left? What then?

EA say's they will not have microtransactions in Star Wars - Squadrons. EA is on record as a micro transaction believer, so I wonder what brought this on? Maybe it signals a change of heart or there is sufficient resistance from gamers. I hope this becomes a trend.

Companies like that don't have a change of heart unless legally required. They probably mean it won't have microtransactions at launch, and they'll be added later, so that their rating and physical copies don't mention it. That's what happened with Crash Team Racing Nitro-Fueled.

[orange808]

I think people are blindly consenting to a new subscription model with a discrete console shelf life.

Soon, you will pay for the right to shop for games and verfiy the DRM on your purchases. No subscription, no access.

When the console reaches EOL, the servers get switched off forever--and your console becomes a brick. Sure, they'll wait a couple years before they brick your old machine, but they will.

The next console will probably have updated versions of old software for sale, so you won't be out of luck. You can buy some of your games again with better lighting. Remasters have low budgets, so the realist in me says: you get free bugs.

That's where Microsoft and Sony want to be. Should be fun to see how many people swallow it.

[Udderdude]

Last time Microsoft tried anything like that, they instantly lost the console war, even though they backpedaled on it. (The sports sports sports TV and movies didn't help either).

[orange808]

Last time Microsoft tried anything like that, they instantly lost the console war, even though they backpedaled on it. (The sports sports sports TV and movies didn't help either).

Sure, but the trick is to make sure there are no consumer friendly options. If they work in lockstep, there's no escape.

Anyhow, I think the PC is a better fit for my values. Steam is an easy target, but devs have always been in natural conflict with their employers and publishers. That's never going away.

The community in the PC realm have kept Microsoft's universal application framework (That they keep disingenuously renaming and try to cram down our throats. We aren't stupid, MS.) and that crappy Microsoft Store at bay. Microsoft (not so secretly) wants an ecosystem that operates like the Apple Store, without "Win32" sideloading. That's a fever dream--and we have the momentum to hit it with shovels and bury it again (every time Microsoft resurrects the zombie). There's no path from here to there. Middleman stores get a bad rap; they protect gamers from a monopoly. Monopolies always exploit their position and it always hurts the consumer.

On a console, it's different. Microsoft and Sony have you by the stones. I hope it doesn't turn into a "pay a subscription for the right to pay more" thing, but everything I've seen so far points in that direction.

Of course, that all relies on one thing: Home users can't ever submit to Windows as a service and pay a subscription for the OS itself. If we let that happen, I think everything else will eventually disappear.

[Udderdude]

Last time Microsoft tried anything like that, they instantly lost the console war, even though they backpedaled on it. (The sports sports sports TV and movies didn't help either).

Sure, but the trick is to make sure there are no consumer friendly options. If they work in lockstep, there's no escape.

There are a few issues besides the consumer backlash, which is that anyone w/o decent internet is suddenly not a customer anymore.

Of course, that all relies on one thing: Home users can't ever submit to Windows as a service and pay a subscription for the OS itself. If we let that happen, I think everything else will eventually disappear.

Linux, Steam and Proton would prevent them from doing that, I hope. lol

[ASDR]

I seem to be one of the few people that can't stand that Witcher, MGS etc embraced the open world crap. Fucking hell that I felt MGS IV was a too long cinematic mess at times, it's a breeeeze compared to MGS V which I doubt I will ever bother to finish. Series lose some of their identity when they just become open world gameplay loop poop soup IMO.

There's actually one mission in MGS V that apparently got a bit too long so they split it into two. It's completely ridiculous and immersion breaking. Imagine just flying away with your helicopter in the middle of a story mission bossfight, do some sidequests, then come back to finish it.

I don't know a single person that cares (or even knew) that the Wii shop shutdown, I also don't know anyone who still owns an xbox 360 or ps3.

I had this conversation so often with various money-constrained friends. For them buying a new AAA game is quite a lot of money, but when I tell them they could pick up an 'old' console like a 360 for less than the price of a new game and then buy used AAA games from a few years ago for a few bucks each they just don't care. It's old crap to them, just look at prices for 360 games. I don't get it, it's just a downgrade in visuals, AC, COD, GoW, Uncharted, etc. haven't changed that much in the last 10 years...

really don't care for open world type games. to me open world=lots of times wandering around not experiencing actual gameplay.

Depends. Most Ubisoft style open-world games just feel like busywork to me. Endless boring tasks, same few gameplay types endlessly repeated, nothing really to discover. Breath of the Wild was like an amazing adventure that I could've never had in a linear Zelda game. Few companies do something interesting with the open world concept, it's just a lazy template to shove their stuff in. I was kinda interested in that Ghost of Tsushima game, but when they showed some more gameplay footage there was this moment where they player collected some bamboo and all I could think of was "collect 2 more stacks of bamboo to upgrade your pan flute to power level 2". I'm afraid it'll just be one of those games...

[Udderdude]

I don't know a single person that cares (or even knew) that the Wii shop shutdown, I also don't know anyone who still owns an xbox 360 or ps3.

I had this conversation so often with various money-constrained friends. For them buying a new AAA game is quite a lot of money, but when I tell them they could pick up an 'old' console like a 360 for less than the price of a new game and then buy used AAA games from a few years ago for a few bucks each they just don't care. It's old crap to them, just look at prices for 360 games. I don't get it, it's just a downgrade in visuals, AC, COD, GoW, Uncharted, etc. haven't changed that much in the last 10 years...

Meanwhile it's become increasingly difficult to find new 360 or PS3 controllers that aren't total garbage and don't cost a small fortune. Go figure.

[Steamflogger Boss]

Controllers get trashed because people are slobs and then you notice eBay is riddled with fakes. It's not a great mix for sure.

I had this conversation so often with various money-constrained friends. For them buying a new AAA game is quite a lot of money, but when I tell them they could pick up an 'old' console like a 360 for less than the price of a new game and then buy used AAA games from a few years ago for a few bucks each they just don't care. It's old crap to them, just look at prices for 360 games. I don't get it, it's just a downgrade in visuals, AC, COD, GoW, Uncharted, etc. haven't changed that much in the last 10 years...

This seems to be the general attitude. I know several people that after the new console is out, the previous one does not exist anymore. Powerful brain worms.

[BryanM]

Just wanted to vent my contempt for these Stadia ads google is drenching their youtube website with. So much worse than the RAID! SHADOW LEGENDS! thing because at least Raid is a game. The Stadia ads don't describe what the service is nor what games are on it, just loud aggressive pop music designed to not to appeal to gamers in any way.

Having a centralized marketplace like Steam has been a godsend for getting PC ports and indie developers - Sega famously is ramping up the ports when they basically doubled the lifetime sales of Persona 4 in a couple months when they ported Persona 4 Golden over to it. (And unlike Nintendo, it isn't being sold for $360 forever.)

However there's no reason that Apple, Google, and Valve deserve to steal 30% of all revenue in perpetuity just because they were big enough to lock down their markets first. Libraries would ideally be a public good, obviously. (Like with Windows, when it's obvious something would be better as a monopoly, it probably would be better if it wasn't under the control of The Devil. There's a reason why so much internet stuff has gone to shit (Windows 10, websites like Imgur demanding you to have a cell phone before you can use them, etc), and is only going to get worse.

In the far future when we have over 9 quintillion bits of RAM and it's impossible to use old versions of Windows, that's way scarier than what's going to happen with the games market.

[Taiyaki]

The ever present option to enforce DRM, and to remove games forever, is the things that worry me the most with digital-only future

This is the "maybe you don't own the game you bought" argument, and there's merit there.

There's more than jsut that though. It's hard to argue one owns something when one can't sell it, give it, or lend it to someone.

[Guspaz]

Physical media is largely a facade these days. Without all the updates (sometimes games just plain don't work without the day-one patch), without all the additional content, without in many cases large chunks of the actual game, without the online services and servers that games rely on, there often isn't much left on that physical media that is of use in a brand new console without a network connection. I'm not arguing in favour of this, it's just the way it is now.

[Konsolkongen]

Physical media is largely a facade these days. Without all the updates (sometimes games just plain don't work without the day-one patch), without all the additional content, without in many cases large chunks of the actual game, without the online services and servers that games rely on, there often isn't much left on that physical media that is of use in a brand new console without a network connection. I'm not arguing in favour of this, it's just the way it is now.

I don’t think I’ve yet come across a game that didn’t work without being patched. Sure there are numerous bug and performance fixes sometimes, but you could still play them.

[Lawfer]

I don’t think I’ve yet come across a game that didn’t work without being patched.

Me neither. Anyway, even beside that physical media is still superior because you can resell them, with digital you are stuck with something that you can't resell (even if you didn't like the game) and that doesn't exist outside of the PSN network and so it's basically as if you are throwing your money bills in the fireplace. Whereas with physical games, you can resell them, even some PS4 games will bring you a good amount of money if they are rare, see Godzilla, Gravity Rush Remastered (USA Version), Disaster Resport 4: Summer Memories (USA Version) and so on and alot of the Limited Run Games releases.

[spmbx]

you can resell them, even some PS4 games will bring you a good amount of money if they are rare, see Godzilla, Gravity Rush Remastered (USA Version), Disaster Resport 4: Summer Memories (USA Version) and so on and alot of the Limited Run Games releases.

That's exactly the kind of bullshittery i'd celebrate when it disappears.
Anyway, it's not so much digital itself that's the problem, more the implementation of it. Looking at steam or GOG, they have pretty relaxed return policies (especially GOG). It's more than sufficient for the "i didn't like the game" usecases. Would be cool if psn/xbox store implemented something similar.

[Lawfer]

The other problem with digital is also games getting delisted out of nowhere, the reason why Godzilla rose up in price (despite the fact that it's... well a Godzilla game) it's because the digital version got delisted, so the only way to play this game now is by getting the physical PS4 copy, with digital when a game gets delisted, it gets lost forever, while physical lets you play the game forever. Video game preservation is important and digital is an enemy of that, see all the PS3 and PSP games who had digital versions available that became forever lost because they got delisted (aka lost) buy you can still play them by getting a physical version.

Let's not even talk about the fact that the PSP digital store closed a few years back, so the only way to get digital PSP games on your PSP/PSP Go is by owning a PS3, buying the games from you PS3 and then having them getting transfered over to your PSP that is THE ONLY WAY now, but at least there is a way, when the PS3 storefront eventually gets taken down you'll use all ability to even do that, same for PS Vita.

There is also another issue with digital, games only released in specific region stores where you can only have 1 account region per console, see PSP and PS Vita, for example you want to play Final Fantasy I and II on PSP? You can only do so if you have an East-Asian or European Account, if your PSP or PS Vita console is registered to the US PSN you can not play these games because it is one PSN account per console, same thing for Shadow of Memories/Destiny, this game was released on consoles for PS2 (240p only), Original Xbox (in Europe only) and PSP, the PSP version is the definitive version of the game, however the only way to play this game on PSP in english is to either download the digital version from the Asian PSN or get the European physical version, if you got a PSPGo or a PS Vita the only way is to get the digital version, however the digital version was only released on the Asian PSN, no US or European digital release for the game, but the problem persist is that it is one PSN account per console.

There are other more rare issues, such as the PS4 version of Ace Combat 5 which is now impossible to get because it was digital only and only available to those who pre-ordered Ace Combat 7 for PS4 (also apparently even if you pre-ordered that still didn't assure that you would get the game, so all the negative reviews on amazon related to that).

There are some other problems, such as price point, with digital the publisher reigns supreme over the price that the game is being sold at, meaning if they leave a game being 40 or 50 forever there is nothing nobody can do about that, while physical you can get good deals.