COVID-19 in your part of the world

[GaijinPunch]

Playing the "no point in voting, they're all the same" tune is some pathetic defeatist bullshit to the core.
Is your entire purpose to undermine our democracy, is that what you fuckers are on about?

If you don't vote you can't bitch. Nobody lives by that mantra anymore, unfortunately.

[GaijinPunch]

. What you don't understand is the protesting is also an indictment of Obama's "bait and switch" presidency.

Yeah, with those 8 years of economic upturn from the ashes. He was a cunt.

[mamboFoxtrot]

There's a nasty flu and a depression, but I didn't get to vote against either of those things.

this makes me wonder how many people would vote for Coronavirus if given the chance
it'd be more than 0%
hell, given all the talk about "COVID WILL EXPOSE AND DESTROY CAPITALISM AND KILL ALL THE BOOMERS" and such it might even be more than 10%

[Vanguard]

Unpleasant as each are, and as much as one hopes to avoid both, there is a difference between a crusty turd you have to stop to scrape off your shoe and a septic tank backup that renders your house unlivable.

I don't know offhand if you're from the USA or not, but if you are, out of curiosity, what would you say is the last Presidential election we've had where one, let alone both, of the choices wasn't notably shitty in some way that we eventually had to deal with?

Yes I'm an Eaglelander, and no, I don't believe there has been anyone halfway decent within my lifetime.

[orange808]

. What you don't understand is the protesting is also an indictment of Obama's "bait and switch" presidency.

Yeah, with those 8 years of economic upturn from the ashes. He was a cunt.

I don't even know where to begin.

1. Well, first of all... Pinning the entire economy on the president. Do you have a paraeducator assistant to go to class with you and help you understand the instructions? lmao So frickin' shallow, I can't even begin to address it. So shallow and so divorced from reality.

2. If we were going to play that card, Trump was cruising until the flu hit. Come to think of it, Dubuyah was cruising along until planes hit the WTC. Reagan was fine until the S&L issues. It's just so incredibly lame. As if the American president is the all knowing dictator of the world.

Of course, you didn't mention that capital growth continued to exceed the growth of the overall economy (math is hard, can you figure out what that means? I can probably draw a picture in crayon.)

You didn't mention the massive state surveillance we built.

The neocon foreign policy.

The continued stagnant wages. The continued growth of work visas that import cheap labor and penalize workers that organise with deportation. If you lose your job, you get deported.

The permanent tax cuts for the wealthiest when we had a deficit (during a good economy and you said so yourself).

Obama was dealtt a perfect hand to change things. Instead he immediately held a meeting with Wall Street to make sure they understood he would do nothing.

And, of course, the "half a loaf" ACA--a guarantee that Boomer and X'er wealthy white suburbanites won't be denied coverage or lose their houses that's funded by millennials.

Yeah. Keep talking. Keep lying.

I'm reminded of Jello Biafra and The Audacity of Hype.

I'm sorry you have a problem with open and honest evaluation.

[system11]

Wish I'd seen this thread sooner, have been dealing with many things lately. I suppose we all have, this is from my point of view in the UK:

For me the COVID thing has exposed some really big problems in certain sections of society. How did we go from normality to embracing a police state in the UK where police were even checking whether people were buying essentials only, threatening to close small grocery stores for selling easter eggs, harassing people sitting -alone- in the middle of a park and so on. In fact we even got one instance of an officer recorded saying that he would "make something up, who are they going to believe?". Who could ever have seen that it should be major media news that two people on motorbikes went to buy some chips, a man drove to pick up a dog or that a man drove his family from one house to another. It's fucking insane and those examples are real, the last example turning into a politically driven media sideshow.

The media has been screeching that we're all going to die and the 'vulnerable' need to be protected.
A large number of people of a certain outlook have also been screeching that we're all going to die and anyone who disagrees hates their own loved ones.
The government as a result of media/social screeching implement the most draconian measures since wartime.
People in supermarkets now look at eachother with fear and distrust.
Nobody stops to ask the very valid question 'how many lives lost are outweighed by lives lost later as a result of this, and lives negatively affected for generations'.

Meanwhile as more studies and figures roll in, it does start to look like we overreacted massively (or too slowly but for too long) and the damage is done, the precedent for house arresting a nation has been set, jobs have been destroyed, health & mental health are in serious decline. Of course it's somewhat harder to find that out because while main media are printing most of it if you know where to look, the front pages are still a dumpster fire of clinical trial stories, stories of death and stories intended to shame people.

Of course now many of the same crowd going on about how leaving the house is akin to murdering their loved ones, are strongly supporting mass protests. In some cases supporting actual rioting, which hurts normal people.

There are far too many people out there who have been brought up to deal with everything on an emotional level, is the polite way to put it. I think COVID is a good example of why governments need to ignore social and print media entirely and do what is best for the country, not what they feel compelled/shamed to do by the bubble mob.

And yes I did ask my parents, who are in the high risk group what they thought of this, and they just wanted to go out and enjoy what's left of their retirement while they still can rather than being shut in a house banned from seeing their own family. The agency of this group seems to have been completely ignored, as if they're children.

[FinalBaton]

Good post System11 but I gotta make an ammendment

Don't know about other places but here in Québec it was absolutely essential to have a hard lockdown period because healthcare system would have straight up crumbled otherwise. (not enough beds/nurses)

but after a short period like that, I do believe that a gradual deconfinment needs to happen, which is what we actually started doing here since a month or a bit more. But some people say it should have started earlier

I posted about the start of our gradual deconfinement here last month and some posters called it crazy and irresponsible

overall I'm ok with how it was handled here.



on the provincial level we started acting decently early here as far as NA is concerned. But we kinda got fucked by Trudeau, who let planes land i from China as late as 3 weeks after provincial lockdown, and also waited that long to close down frontier with USA... ya thanks Trudeau...

we got more cases than Ontario but that's mainly IMO because 1 - we test more and 2 - we had a spring break whereas rest of NA didn't (ours is earlier than US springbreak)

[GaijinPunch]

1. Well, first of all... Pinning the entire economy on the president.

That is literally the only thing the current one has been using for 3 years. And while no, I know it's not entirely up to the big guy, it is by and large how we remember our Presidents (Reagan) and how we fire them (Bush 41).

2. If we were going to play that card, Trump was cruising until the flu hit. Come to think of it, Dubuyah was cruising along until planes hit the WTC. Reagan was fine until the S&L issues. It's just so incredibly lame. As if the American president is the all knowing dictator of the world.

No, if you played that card you'd see Trump was riding on Obama's coat tails. Well, any one else would. I spent my career in finance.
I have a clue. Clearly we are paraphrasing. Someone earlier said he had a "bait and switch" Presidency. LOL... pinning the entire presidency down to one statement. He was actually quite popular, despite carrying on witth Bush era surveillance.

[orange808]

.He was actually quite popular...

Just like Ronald Reagan? Popularity only means something when you say so, right?


-----

Also, I noticed you don't have the stones to disagree the MC. Ha! You read the post. It's on this page. Entertaining.

[GaijinPunch]

.He was actually quite popular...

Just like Ronald Reagan? Popularity only means something when you say so, right?


-----

Also, I noticed you don't have the stones to disagree the MC. Ha! You read the post. It's on this page. Entertaining.

Sucka MCs... what I eat for breakfast.

[system11]

Good post System11 but I gotta make an ammendment

Don't know about other places but here in Québec it was absolutely essential to have a hard lockdown period because healthcare system would have straight up crumbled otherwise. (not enough beds/nurses)

In the UK we never exceeded 40% capacity, allegedly. All but one of the emergency hospitals built were never used. That said, I was totally onboard with the initial 3 week period, there were many more question marks at the time and it must surely have made a difference. Shutting down public transport sooner would have been better. Inexplicably airports were never closed.

[GaijinPunch]

Good post System11 but I gotta make an ammendment

Don't know about other places but here in Québec it was absolutely essential to have a hard lockdown period because healthcare system would have straight up crumbled otherwise. (not enough beds/nurses)

In the UK we never exceeded 40% capacity, allegedly. All but one of the emergency hospitals built were never used. That said, I was totally onboard with the initial 3 week period, there were many more question marks at the time and it must surely have made a difference. Shutting down public transport sooner would have been better. Inexplicably airports were never closed.

Taking it w/ a grain of salt but I don't think any medical system in the US, other than the NY Metropolitan area, ever hit 100%. Chicago's did not, at least from what I have heard from friends in the medical industry. There were no reports to contradict that. I'd be interested to see stats on places like Michigan, which are much less populated but had higher numbers.

I will agree that the politicians by and large fucked this up by changing the narrative. It went from not overwhelming healthcare to keeping numbers low just because. I'm not saying we should have opened full stop but there is definitely a middle ground that could have been met with very little thought. For example, there's no reason every store in the cuntry couldn't have had curbside pick up. Fabric stores in many states were not deemed essential, when masks were required to go to essential businesses and of course, sold out everywhere. Bars should have been able to sell alcohol for take out since the beginning, but we have 100 year old laws that prevent that.

[orange808]

Good post System11 but I gotta make an ammendment

Don't know about other places but here in Québec it was absolutely essential to have a hard lockdown period because healthcare system would have straight up crumbled otherwise. (not enough beds/nurses)

In the UK we never exceeded 40% capacity, allegedly. All but one of the emergency hospitals built were never used. That said, I was totally onboard with the initial 3 week period, there were many more question marks at the time and it must surely have made a difference. Shutting down public transport sooner would have been better. Inexplicably airports were never closed.

Taking it w/ a grain of salt but I don't think any medical system in the US, other than the NY Metropolitan area, ever hit 100%. Chicago's did not, at least from what I have heard from friends in the medical industry. There were no reports to contradict that. I'd be interested to see stats on places like Michigan, which are much less populated but had higher numbers.

I will agree that the politicians by and large fucked this up by changing the narrative. It went from not overwhelming healthcare to keeping numbers low just because. I'm not saying we should have opened full stop but there is definitely a middle ground that could have been met with very little thought. For example, there's no reason every store in the cuntry couldn't have had curbside pick up. Fabric stores in many states were not deemed essential, when masks were required to go to essential businesses and of course, sold out everywhere. Bars should have been able to sell alcohol for take out since the beginning, but we have 100 year old laws that prevent that.

But, what about the olds? You said that mattered bunches and bunches! That would hurt old and sick people!

You objected to figuring out the cost and now you want to talk tradeoffs casually?

Flip flopper.

One moment you object to talking tradeoffs, the next you wade in. Of course, maybe you're just brown nosing the MC.

[bottino]

Hope everyone here is staying safe and healthy.

We're heading to a catastrophe here, aiming for the #1 spot with gusto, with more than a death per minute, roughly 35.000 confirmed but the numbers are probably much higher than this -
It is hard to fight a pandemic when your fascist president is not only purposely sabotaging the efforts in dealing this thing, but is also trying to cause as much deaths as quickly as possible. Our half-assed quarantine is already being relaxed, despite the continual rise in the number of cases. Obviously, now the government decided to hide the numbers, standard procedure from people that are trying to once again enact a military-business dictatorship, like the one we had during between 1964-85.

Decades ago, Bolsonaro said that in order to "fix" Brazil and to finish the job that the military had started, 30.000 people would've to be killed in a civil war here. Despite not having that achieved through a civil war (at least not until now), that number will likely be 4 - 5 times higher, and will be much more unless we stop him.

[GaijinPunch]

I will agree that the politicians by and large fucked this up by changing the narrative. It went from not overwhelming healthcare to keeping numbers low just because. I'm not saying we should have opened full stop but there is definitely a middle ground that could have been met with very little thought. For example, there's no reason every store in the cuntry couldn't have had curbside pick up. Fabric stores in many states were not deemed essential, when masks were required to go to essential businesses and of course, sold out everywhere. Bars should have been able to sell alcohol for take out since the beginning, but we have 100 year old laws that prevent that.

But, what about the olds? You said that mattered bunches and bunches! That would hurt old and sick people!

You objected to figuring out the cost and now you want to talk tradeoffs casually?

Flip flopper.

One moment you object to talking tradeoffs, the next you wade in. Of course, maybe you're just brown nosing the MC.

Do you know how to read?

I was never against the things I pointed out above, even for the initial supposed 2-3 week duration which was floated around at the beginning (at least in the areas I was in). I can't say your perception of me wouldn't seem that way, but that's your problem, not mine. It took me weeks to get fabric which irked the fuck out of me - I very likely voiced the frustration here. Looser alcohol laws I've always been for, but even the first handful of lock down days I posted elsewhere they needed to figure out a way to let bars do take out. The only argument I've ever used which could be construed as pro lock-down when talking to conservative friends is that the hospitalization rate is high which leads to unnecessary deaths (usually among elderly and immunocompromised).

But you do you, guy.

[CIT]

Seems to me like it should be. What is the point if your choices are shit or shit?

Democratic elections are not about selecting the "best" person to become leader. They're a mechanism that allows you to get rid of the person in power without the need for bloodshed.

[orange808]

I will agree that the politicians by and large fucked this up by changing the narrative. It went from not overwhelming healthcare to keeping numbers low just because. I'm not saying we should have opened full stop but there is definitely a middle ground that could have been met with very little thought. For example, there's no reason every store in the cuntry couldn't have had curbside pick up. Fabric stores in many states were not deemed essential, when masks were required to go to essential businesses and of course, sold out everywhere. Bars should have been able to sell alcohol for take out since the beginning, but we have 100 year old laws that prevent that.

But, what about the olds? You said that mattered bunches and bunches! That would hurt old and sick people!

You objected to figuring out the cost and now you want to talk tradeoffs casually?

Flip flopper.

One moment you object to talking tradeoffs, the next you wade in. Of course, maybe you're just brown nosing the MC.

Do you know how to read?

I was never against the things I pointed out above, even for the initial supposed 2-3 week duration which was floated around at the beginning (at least in the areas I was in). I can't say your perception of me wouldn't seem that way, but that's your problem, not mine. It took me weeks to get fabric which irked the fuck out of me - I very likely voiced the frustration here. Looser alcohol laws I've always been for, but even the first handful of lock down days I posted elsewhere they needed to figure out a way to let bars do take out. The only argument I've ever used which could be construed as pro lock-down when talking to conservative friends is that the hospitalization rate is high which leads to unnecessary deaths (usually among elderly and immunocompromised).

But you do you, guy.

Yeah. I can read.

You objected to talking about compromise and setting cost limits, then went straight to it when it was time to agree with the webmaster.

Now, you're backpedaling.

You do you, mate.

[GaijinPunch]

Yeah. I can read.

You objected to talking about compromise and setting cost limits, then went straight to it when it was time to agree with the webmaster.

Now, you're backpedaling.

You do you, mate.

Yeah, like when I said the exact same words (citing Chicago never hitting 100%) as an example a month ago? I've been pretty middle of the road, but make sure the hospitals aren't over capacity, most of the way. Only one area hit that - and there's no way my aforementioned hangups would have contributed to that in any meaningful way.

[Queen Charlene]

Hope everyone here is staying safe and healthy.

We're heading to a catastrophe here, aiming for the #1 spot with gusto, with more than a death per minute, roughly 35.000 confirmed but the numbers are probably much higher than this -
It is hard to fight a pandemic when your fascist president is not only purposely sabotaging the efforts in dealing this thing, but is also trying to cause as much deaths as quickly as possible. Our half-assed quarantine is already being relaxed, despite the continual rise in the number of cases. Obviously, now the government decided to hide the numbers, standard procedure from people that are trying to once again enact a military-business dictatorship, like the one we had during between 1964-85.

Decades ago, Bolsonaro said that in order to "fix" Brazil and to finish the job that the military had started, 30.000 people would've to be killed in a civil war here. Despite not having that achieved through a civil war (at least not until now), that number will likely be 4 - 5 times higher, and will be much more unless we stop him.

my condolences. praying for Brazil.

[ED-057]

Democratic elections are not about selecting the "best" person to become leader. They're a mechanism that allows you to get rid of the person in power without the need for bloodshed.

The idea that you can vote "against" someone is a popular misconception. It's completely wrong. The US is supposed to be a representative democracy. Elections are how we choose the representatives and happen at regular intervals. The representatives serve for a term that is predefined by law, in some cases a limited number of terms.

Elections put people in office. There are separate mechanisms to get rid of them under extreme circumstances (eg. impeachment)

[CIT]

The idea that you can vote "against" someone is a popular misconception. It's completely wrong.

I was commenting on the unfortunately widespread sentiment that there's "no point voting" because there's nobody decent on the ballot. Of course we vote to put people into office and there are also elections with no incumbents. But that's not any advantage democracy has over other forms of government. The only advantage is that it allows for the peaceful transition of power. Karl Popper wrote a whole book on that. Let's see how long that lasts, as Trump is already laying the groundwork to claim the election was rigged in case he looses.

[emphatic]

Hope everyone here is staying safe and healthy.

We're heading to a catastrophe here, aiming for the #1 spot with gusto, with more than a death per minute, roughly 35.000 confirmed but the numbers are probably much higher than this -
It is hard to fight a pandemic when your fascist president is not only purposely sabotaging the efforts in dealing this thing, but is also trying to cause as much deaths as quickly as possible. Our half-assed quarantine is already being relaxed, despite the continual rise in the number of cases. Obviously, now the government decided to hide the numbers, standard procedure from people that are trying to once again enact a military-business dictatorship, like the one we had during between 1964-85.

Decades ago, Bolsonaro said that in order to "fix" Brazil and to finish the job that the military had started, 30.000 people would've to be killed in a civil war here. Despite not having that achieved through a civil war (at least not until now), that number will likely be 4 - 5 times higher, and will be much more unless we stop him.

Very sad to hear this. Stay as safe as you can.

[orange808]

The idea that you can vote "against" someone is a popular misconception. It's completely wrong.

I was commenting on the unfortunately widespread sentiment that there's "no point voting" because there's nobody decent on the ballot. Of course we vote to put people into office and there are also elections with no incumbents. But that's not any advantage democracy has over other forms of government. The only advantage is that it allows for the peaceful transition of power. Karl Popper wrote a whole book on that. Let's see how long that lasts, as Trump is already laying the groundwork to claim the election was rigged in case he looses.

Hey, everyone! It's a neolib Dem!

Republican lite. The smiling rear end drillers.

They gave you a "choice".

Rigged? You want to talk about rigged?

Like the way the Electoral Collge creates an artificial duopoly? Or, like the way we have legalized corruption--and every bit of our government is bought and paid for? Or, the smear compaign the Clinton Dems waged through Silicon Valley when change came knocking?

Loved that fake outrage over the Electoral College after Clinton lost (and she did lose). Then, no action. The greasy GOP proposed dozens of awful doomed bills to repeal the ACA to make a statement. The Dems never proposed a single bill to change the Constitution and Electoral College--symbolic or not. Because, Dems love it the way it is--and the outrage was fake! (Dems don't want change and third parties to happen. They love this.)

Rigged indeed.

You obviously don't hate Trump enough, because you aren't ready to do what it takes to get people out to vote.

Eat another poop burger. When you get done, you can negotiate with me. I'm not moving. It's never ever going to happen, neolib.

And, don't tell me about minorities. You're white and comfortable. That's just a shaming technique you try to use to maintain the status quo. Like when Clinton gets black women on stage as props or brings gun violence victims out as props. (We haven't passed or even proposed a single law that would reduce rhe amount of guns manufactured or sold. Bill and Hillary's record on race speaks for itself.)

It's a sham.

You can't blackmail us with the GOP anymore.

[Vanguard]

Democratic elections are not about selecting the "best" person to become leader. They're a mechanism that allows you to get rid of the person in power without the need for bloodshed.

But in the USA the real power belongs to the billionaires and the corporations. It's difficult to see how the donor class could possibly be removed from power without violence. They certainly aren't going to let you just up and vote them away. The correct solution to the problem is to not concentrate power in the hands of an elite few in the first place. Direct democracy or sortition would be massive improvements over representative democracy.

[Mischief Maker]

Hope everyone here is staying safe and healthy.

We're heading to a catastrophe here, aiming for the #1 spot with gusto, with more than a death per minute, roughly 35.000 confirmed but the numbers are probably much higher than this -
It is hard to fight a pandemic when your fascist president is not only purposely sabotaging the efforts in dealing this thing, but is also trying to cause as much deaths as quickly as possible. Our half-assed quarantine is already being relaxed, despite the continual rise in the number of cases. Obviously, now the government decided to hide the numbers, standard procedure from people that are trying to once again enact a military-business dictatorship, like the one we had during between 1964-85.

Decades ago, Bolsonaro said that in order to "fix" Brazil and to finish the job that the military had started, 30.000 people would've to be killed in a civil war here. Despite not having that achieved through a civil war (at least not until now), that number will likely be 4 - 5 times higher, and will be much more unless we stop him.

I am as pissed as every Bernie supporter that we've been cornered by the system into voting for a guy representing a political party whose only real goal is to stymie our movement.

But we need to have an internationalist view of things and realize that Trump and the Republicans are part of an ongoing international fascist movement that's been slowly and steadily eroding and quashing entirely democracies around the world, from Bolsonaro in Brazil to Orbán in Hungary to Modi in India and so on. Steve Bannon was active in the Bolsonaro campaign.

Corporate Democrats, meanwhile, have been comparatively feckless in all pursuits save for maintaining their own personal power. That's why Obama was a force of nature running his own campaign but barely could get a judge through congress. Why RBG refused to step down during the Obama years despite the good it would have done her party because she thought she still had 3 good years left in her. The "goal" of the third way democrats/labour was accomplished in the 90s and now it's just every man for himself. The fact that they went with the senile guy is a clear sign of their desperate disorganization. (And frankly, if Warren did the smart thing and dropped out before getting humiliated in her home state, this primary might still be a race).

So ultimately it comes down to "choose your enemy." Do you want a hysterical old queen prone to shrieking, "off with their heads," backed by a competent global fascist movement that's getting bolder by the day? Or do you want a senile old coot who's prone to telling rambling grandpa simpson stories backed by an inept clown car of nerdy trust fund babies viciously fighting for their own personal careers, but have no coordinated movement of any kind and kick their own members out practically on a whim regularly?

Once again, Trump and the Republicans are literal neoliberals. The word doesn't mean "bad democrat."


And speaking of people who wildly misuse the term "neoliberal," someone on this forum mentioned Jimmy Dore recently, and I saw his interview on Useful Idiots. As someone who used to watch his show voraciously before he dropped one too many blatantly incorrect hot takes, please don't use Jimmy Dore as a thought leader. He hasn't changed a bit.

The guy doesn't do any research and gets tricked by right-wing conspiracy theories constantly. Related to this discussion, he fell in love with a cheap propaganda video by the corrupt lava jato task force in Brazil that got Bolsonaro elected by jailing his opponent (Lula da Silva, the Bernie Sanders of Brazil) a month and a half before the election. The question I ask when trying to understand Jimmy Dore is ironically the same one I'm always asking about the establishment Dems, "Stupid or Evil?"

[orange808]

Hope everyone here is staying safe and healthy.

We're heading to a catastrophe here, aiming for the #1 spot with gusto, with more than a death per minute, roughly 35.000 confirmed but the numbers are probably much higher than this -
It is hard to fight a pandemic when your fascist president is not only purposely sabotaging the efforts in dealing this thing, but is also trying to cause as much deaths as quickly as possible. Our half-assed quarantine is already being relaxed, despite the continual rise in the number of cases. Obviously, now the government decided to hide the numbers, standard procedure from people that are trying to once again enact a military-business dictatorship, like the one we had during between 1964-85.

Decades ago, Bolsonaro said that in order to "fix" Brazil and to finish the job that the military had started, 30.000 people would've to be killed in a civil war here. Despite not having that achieved through a civil war (at least not until now), that number will likely be 4 - 5 times higher, and will be much more unless we stop him.

I am as pissed as every Bernie supporter that we've been cornered by the system into voting for a guy representing a political party whose only real goal is to stymie our movement.

But we need to have an internationalist view of things and realize that Trump and the Republicans are part of an ongoing international fascist movement that's been slowly and steadily eroding and quashing entirely democracies around the world, from Bolsonaro in Brazil to Orbán in Hungary to Modi in India and so on. Steve Bannon was active in the Bolsonaro campaign.

Corporate Democrats, meanwhile, have been comparatively feckless in all pursuits save for maintaining their own personal power. That's why Obama was a force of nature running his own campaign but barely could get a judge through congress. Why RBG refused to step down during the Obama years despite the good it would have done her party because she thought she still had 3 good years left in her. The "goal" of the third way democrats/labour was accomplished in the 90s and now it's just every man for himself. The fact that they went with the senile guy is a clear sign of their desperate disorganization. (And frankly, if Warren did the smart thing and dropped out before getting humiliated in her home state, this primary might still be a race).

So ultimately it comes down to "choose your enemy." Do you want a hysterical old queen prone to shrieking, "off with their heads," backed by a competent global fascist movement that's getting bolder by the day? Or do you want a senile old coot who's prone to telling rambling grandpa simpson stories backed by an inept clown car of nerdy trust fund babies viciously fighting for their own personal careers, but have no coordinated movement of any kind and kick their own members out practically on a whim regularly?

Once again, Trump and the Republicans are literal neoliberals. The word doesn't mean "bad democrat."


And speaking of people who wildly misuse the term "neoliberal," someone on this forum mentioned Jimmy Dore recently, and I saw his interview on Useful Idiots. As someone who used to watch his show voraciously before he dropped one too many blatantly incorrect hot takes, please don't use Jimmy Dore as a thought leader. He hasn't changed a bit.

The guy doesn't do any research and gets tricked by right-wing conspiracy theories constantly. Related to this discussion, he fell in love with a cheap propaganda video by the corrupt lava jato task force in Brazil that got Bolsonaro elected by jailing his opponent (Lula da Silva, the Bernie Sanders of Brazil) a month and a half before the election. The question I ask when trying to understand Jimmy Dore is ironically the same one I'm always asking about the establishment Dems, "Stupid or Evil?"

Why are you asking that? Why does it matter? Evil? Stupid? So?

Maybe a fun thought exercise? It has no bearing on outcomes.

This isn't about "blame". Not wanting to vote for someone/something isn't a court of law and I don't need to meet a burden of proof. They can plead ignorance. Whatever. I'm still not on board.

--------

Ohs noes! It's a global crisis! Another one! We must get in line this time! (Like every other time!)

There's always some urgent reason why we can't change.

Ever notice at work that we always push through difficult situations and timing? Why? Because, as I've reminded people many times, there will always be something in the way. There aren't many perfect moments and we can't afford to wait on them. If we want to, we push through and get things done.

I'm not buying the blackmail routine. I know better.

The reason we don't change is the people in charge don't want to change a thing.

[CIT]

mimimi

Wow, what a load of presumtive crap. Take your head out of your ass and tell me then, what you are specifically doing to change the political system you don't like?

But in the USA the real power belongs to the billionaires and the corporations. It's difficult to see how the donor class could possibly be removed from power without violence. They certainly aren't going to let you just up and vote them away. The correct solution to the problem is to not concentrate power in the hands of an elite few in the first place. Direct democracy or sortition would be massive improvements over representative democracy.

I agree with everything you say, the political system in the US is extremely deficient and it's been hollowed out by the wealthy to the point that it's a kleptocracy. But how do we change that? I'm sure our political genius orange808 will soon enlighten us.

[Mischief Maker]

You can do whatever you want on election day, orange808.

I'm just putting counterarguments up on a public forum that many people who may still be undecided read.

And if you think there's something noble about getting completely rolled by the Republicans on concrete issues while claiming a "moral victory" in your heart, you're gonna love this TV show called "The West Wing."

[orange808]

trolololololololololo

[orange808]

You can do whatever you want on election day, orange808.

I'm just putting counterarguments up on a public forum that many people who may still be undecided read.

And if you think there's something noble about getting completely rolled by the Republicans on concrete issues while claiming a "moral victory" in your heart, you're gonna love this TV show called "The West Wing."

Exactly. When you vote GOP Lite you getting completely rolled by the Republicans on concrete issues while claiming a "moral victory" in your heart.

100%. Great description of voting GOP lite.

Perfect.