PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
In case anyone missed it the Turbografx MiSTer core was updated to play CD games. Arcade card, fast loading and 6-button gamepads are all supported (leave it at 2-button if it's a 2-button game). It's listed as playing .bin/ .cue files but also plays .iso/ .cue so far. BTW some CD titles require Arcade card support to be toggled off to run (this was true on original hardware also). If you get a still image and can't read the Japanese message, this is the most likely problem. Pezz82 has a decent video on the topic.
Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
feels and plays great. Highly recommend.
Unfortunately the option to increase the sprite limit has been removed from the core with this update, which is a shame since it was huge improvement before. Will hopefully be back in a future update.
Unfortunately the option to increase the sprite limit has been removed from the core with this update, which is a shame since it was huge improvement before. Will hopefully be back in a future update.
Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
The main CPU (HuC6280) was completely redone and a ton of bugs were fixed, it is now more accurate than mednafen or any other emulator.
Losing the sprite limit switch was a small price to pay.
Losing the sprite limit switch was a small price to pay.
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Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
It's also already more accurate than the SSDS3 ODE. Not sure how it compares to the UGX-02 since I don't have experience with that one. Seek time related performance is also better than anything else I know of (including CD-ROM drives in good shape).
Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
Somebody turn this into an ODE I can shove in my Turbografx CD drive please.fernan1234 wrote:It's also already more accurate than the SSDS3 ODE. Not sure how it compares to the UGX-02 since I don't have experience with that one. Seek time related performance is also better than anything else I know of (including CD-ROM drives in good shape).
Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
How is it more accurate? SSDS3 works (granted it has its flaws) with original hardware and outputs on my SDTV. Can MiSTer output 240p natively? My biggest gripe with these emulators/clone systems is their display options.fernan1234 wrote:It's also already more accurate than the SSDS3 ODE.
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Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
Simple, glitches and inaccuracies present when using the SSDS3 are not present on this core. Plus, unlike the SSDS3, where bug reports have been sitting unresolved for 1-2 years, bugs reported on github for this open source project are being squashed as early as the same day: https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/TurboGr ... Ter/issues (about half of the 8 currently open issues are already solved in the newest commits).azmun wrote:How is it more accurate?
Yes, it can output the actual resolution(s) and refresh rates of a system via analogue output. The scaler options for digital output are also the best available, by far. Even the best RGB board on real hardware for analogue or that + OSSC for digital will never be as good.azmun wrote: Can MiSTer output 240p natively?
MiSTer is neither of these. You'd benefit a lot from looking more into it.azmun wrote:My biggest gripe with these emulators/clone systems is their display options.
Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
Seems its ruffled TO's feathers.
Spoiler
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Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
How's MiSTer's low latency mode for standard USB boards these days? Have the per-core controller compatibility issues been ironed out?
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Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
Equating this platform to an emulator/RPi is either plain stupidity, ignorance, or an attempt to discredit it. With how accurate this core is already, it can be said confidently to be a viable replacement for real hardware based solutions even for the hardcore and purist. And it's only getting better from there.
Analogue output on a CRT of course has no added lag. Digital scaled outputs have three configurations, including a lagless one though it may not be compatible with all monitors/TVs, while the most compatible mode adds 1 frame. The 0 lag mode has very high compatibility with flat panels though.
Per-core controller compatibility issues must be a very early problem, resolved a long time ago.
Regarding input lag, for a while there's been a fast (1ms) USB polling option, which makes even old crappy controller adapter dongles or USB controllers feel literally as responsive as the real thing. There's also the SNAC adapters (this core is compatible) to use original controllers/devices that interact directly with the core, as if it were real HW.Bassa-Bassa wrote:How's MiSTer's low latency mode for standard USB boards these days? Have the per-core controller compatibility issues been ironed out?
Analogue output on a CRT of course has no added lag. Digital scaled outputs have three configurations, including a lagless one though it may not be compatible with all monitors/TVs, while the most compatible mode adds 1 frame. The 0 lag mode has very high compatibility with flat panels though.
Per-core controller compatibility issues must be a very early problem, resolved a long time ago.
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Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
Silly question, if it's a universal USB feature, why is it an "option"?
So for usage of USB adapters, the 1ms polling is the best way to go?
Thanks!
So for usage of USB adapters, the 1ms polling is the best way to go?
Thanks!
Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
Fudoh, what is the improvement of increasing the sprite limit? Reduced sprite flicker?Fudoh wrote:feels and plays great. Highly recommend.
Unfortunately the option to increase the sprite limit has been removed from the core with this update, which is a shame since it was huge improvement before. Will hopefully be back in a future update.
Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
Here is a rundown of original hardware vs LLAPI vs USB 1ms
NES polls for input every 16ms
|-------------------------16ms------------------------|
|---| this is 900us the time LLAPI takes
|.| this is LLAPI fast polling (not in use yet)
|| this is the real nes hardware
---|----|----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| This is USB 1ms
with USB 1ms, this can happen
--------------------------|-------------------------16ms------------------------|
---|----|----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| This is USB 1ms
See how it was done in the middle? That is jitter...That is bad.. that you do not want
Since LLAPI is locked to the start of a poll (or rather just before it) its always on time.
|---|-------------------------16 ms-------------|
poll
The data is ready before the poll. Every-time.
For all the console cares it could be
|------------------------------------|-------------------------16 ms-------------|
poll
as long as the poll period is under 16ms
Another way to look at it.
|-------------------------16 ms------####-|-------------------------16 ms------####--|
#### = time allotted for polling.
So compared to real hardware 800us difference between a NES controller at 100us and LLAPI at 900us.
But its inside a poll, the console will never notice it
NES polls for input every 16ms
|-------------------------16ms------------------------|
|---| this is 900us the time LLAPI takes
|.| this is LLAPI fast polling (not in use yet)
|| this is the real nes hardware
---|----|----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| This is USB 1ms
with USB 1ms, this can happen
--------------------------|-------------------------16ms------------------------|
---|----|----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| This is USB 1ms
See how it was done in the middle? That is jitter...That is bad.. that you do not want
Since LLAPI is locked to the start of a poll (or rather just before it) its always on time.
|---|-------------------------16 ms-------------|
poll
The data is ready before the poll. Every-time.
For all the console cares it could be
|------------------------------------|-------------------------16 ms-------------|
poll
as long as the poll period is under 16ms
Another way to look at it.
|-------------------------16 ms------####-|-------------------------16 ms------####--|
#### = time allotted for polling.
So compared to real hardware 800us difference between a NES controller at 100us and LLAPI at 900us.
But its inside a poll, the console will never notice it
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Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
I'm not sure why it's not turned on by default. Most likely because it was an added feature and devs tend to avoid turning on new features without user input. Also the lead dev commented that this mode puts the USB device in an "undocumented state", though so far I haven't heard of anyone having any problems with it.Bassa-Bassa wrote: Silly question, if it's a universal USB feature, why is it an "option"?
So for usage of USB adapters, the 1ms polling is the best way to go?
Yes, it's definitely the best way to go for anyone.
Yes very technically, but unlikely to happen during a crucial input. Let's be real, you're not going to notice it. It's for practical purposes as good as LLAPI. But, for absolute OCD-level peace of mind, LLAPI options are there too. Right now the only board available is the BliSSter, which is not officially supported due to partial closed source code on it. There's an open source one in the works that will come out eventually. And again, for the few cores that currently support it, there's also SNAC. But honestly, 1ms polling should be good for pretty much anyone, except maybe cases like SMB1 speedrunners.Syntax wrote:with USB 1ms, this can happen
--------------------------|-------------------------16ms------------------------|
---|----|----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| This is USB 1ms
See how it was done in the middle? That is jitter...That is bad.. that you do not want
Since LLAPI is locked to the start of a poll (or rather just before it) its always on time.
Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
Breaks compatibility with some gamepads afaik.fernan1234 wrote:I'm not sure why it's not turned on by default.
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Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
Could be, though everything I've tried so far with it (Raphnet Famicom adapter, Mayflash adapter for Saturn, N64, PS2, PS1, and SNES... Sony DS3, DS4, some brandless USB pad, forget what else...) all works fine. Anyway, you just need to set it and forget it. I heard the PC Engine mini pads work also, so that will pair nicely with this core.shroom2k wrote:Breaks compatibility with some gamepads afaik.
Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
I guess accurate and authentic are two different things. Not sure if I can ever get used to playing these classic consoles digitally (i.e. on flat panels). I've tried with my Mega Sg. There's a little fine point here. I did some research and sadly, it seems you can't simply run MiSTer on a consumer grade standard definition television with legacy signals (rf, composite or s-video). I know RGB is all the rave, but I've gotten back to basics and it's quite satisfying (fuzzy, dithering and all).fernan1234 wrote:Yes, it can output the actual resolution(s) and refresh rates of a system via analogue output. The scaler options for digital output are also the best available, by far. Even the best RGB board on real hardware for analogue or that + OSSC for digital will never be as good.
I figured, if I really wanted to get the MiSTer to run on my preferred display, I have two options:
a)buy either an HDMI to VGA adapter/converter OR
b)buy the I/O board
Either way, you'll need additional gear, a VGA to composite / s-video converter. Not sure if anyone has gone this route, but I've not read any reports. This last equipment may very well be the weak link?
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cr4zymanz0r
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Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
It has native support for component video as well. The Genesis core has a composite blending option that kinda softens things to blend dithered patterns together. It even has a dynamic blending option that blends only the dithered layers that need to be (from what I hear it's very good, but there are still some edge case games that don't handle the dynamic blending well).azmun wrote: I guess accurate and authentic are two different things. Not sure if I can ever get used to playing these classic consoles digitally (i.e. on flat panels). I've tried with my Mega Sg. There's a little fine point here. I did some research and sadly, it seems you can't simply run MiSTer on a consumer grade standard definition television with legacy signals (rf, composite or s-video). I know RGB is all the rave, but I've gotten back to basics and it's quite satisfying (fuzzy, dithering and all).
PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
Here’s an open source adapter if RGB isn’t your preference, from a reliable company
https://www.retrotink.com/post/vga2ntsc-released
Update - discussion here with unmaker building some
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=66295
https://www.retrotink.com/post/vga2ntsc-released
Update - discussion here with unmaker building some
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=66295
Last edited by hellbelly on Tue May 19, 2020 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
To believe this accuracy affirmation I'd need to test Rayxanber 2's 4th level on the miSTer.fernan1234 wrote:It's also already more accurate than the SSDS3 ODE. Not sure how it compares to the UGX-02 since I don't have experience with that one. Seek time related performance is also better than anything else I know of (including CD-ROM drives in good shape).
On real hardware, the slowdowns break the autofire of the avenue Pad6, and leave only the medium autofire speed usable on 2 buttons pads.
The game behaves exactly the same on the SSDS3.
Is it possible to use real PcE pads on MiSTer to begin with?
Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
This does not matter because with USB there is at most 1ms latency.Syntax wrote: with USB 1ms, this can happen
--------------------------|-------------------------16ms------------------------|
---|----|----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| ----| This is USB 1ms
See how it was done in the middle? That is jitter...That is bad.. that you do not want
This is only true if the NES polls at the same exact time every frame and it doesn't because NES games poll manually. If a game polls at scanline 50 one frame and it polls at scanline 30 the next frame then LLAPI has the input ready at scanline 50 where it should have been ready at 30 and the input is 1 frame delayed.Since LLAPI is locked to the start of a poll (or rather just before it) its always on time.
|---|-------------------------16 ms-------------|
poll
The data is ready before the poll. Every-time.
Genesis is one of the cores where LLAPI is synced to Vblank. If the games poll outside of Vblank then there is a much bigger delay than 1ms from USB depending on how far from Vblank it reads the controllers.
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Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
Component for SDTVs is also an option, though that may not be authentic enough for you. S-video would not be "authentic" either for the PCE, but composite would, using a converter like the one linked above by hellbelly. Granted, we can assume that the composite converted from the MiSTer's RGB will not look exactly the same as the original composite from a PCE IFU-30, CoreGrafx, or SuperGrafx. The original composite is relatively good, so I'm actually interested in seeing this comparison once I get my hands on a VGA2NTSC.azmun wrote:Either way, you'll need additional gear, a VGA to composite / s-video converter. Not sure if anyone has gone this route, but I've not read any reports. This last equipment may very well be the weak link?
Yep. Could use a raphnet adapter, those are really great quality. Or a blissbox adapter. Even a generic adapter would work. All of these will perform the same with 1ms polling.Deubeul wrote:Is it possible to use real PcE pads on MiSTer to begin with?
You can do that test of Rayxanber and post how it goes. This core has 6-button support that you can enable. Though the game behaving this way when using the SSDS3 is not due to the ODE's accuracy though, since slowdown would be down to the PCE's hardware, not drive emulation. The MiSTer core is better at emulating the disc drive, which is the only thing the SSDS3 does. Bugs that exist in both, such as graphical glitches in the intro of Popful Mail, are currently much more minor on the MiSTer core than on the SSDS3, and I expect it to be fixed sooner.
edit: oh, Arcade Card emulation is also better.
Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
Would be an expensive test
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Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
I'll try to test that for you when I get a chance. If it behaves as expected it would speak fo the CPU emulation accuracy though, not the disc drive emulation part.
edit: but really you should just get a DE10, such a great value. As amazing as this core is already, it's just the tip of the iceberg.
edit: but really you should just get a DE10, such a great value. As amazing as this core is already, it's just the tip of the iceberg.
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Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
So there're still easily noticeable glitches. I wonder how of many are there in lesser-known/Japanese-heavy games. But yeah, at least with MiSTer there're possibilities to get them fixed, unlike with the SSDS3. Anybody tried the CPS core to see if Mame's waitstates-related issues (slowdown accuracy, that is) are there as well?
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Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
There are, but they seem to be very few and relatively minor so far. There's lots of knowledgeable PCE fanatics looking at it closely, including the legendary David Shadoff. The whole library including obscure Japanese titles will get well tested soon enough. And yep, one of the first things I did was grab a list of titles with issues on the SSDS3 and ran them on this core. Only one glitch was shared, and is already being looked into.Bassa-Bassa wrote:So there're still easily noticeable glitches. I wonder how of many are there in lesser-known/Japanese-heavy games. But yeah, at least with MiSTer there're possibilities to get them fixed, unlike with the SSDS3. Anybody tried the CPS core to see if Mame's waitstates-related issues (slowdown accuracy, that is) are there as well?
I also just realized that the newest build has the best audio balance I've heard compared to what you get from most hardware revisions I've used. Apparently it's been cross-referenced with an original PCE + Super CDROM2 with the MDFourier audio analyzer. But no audio noise from the CPU, SRAM, etc
And last I heard the CPS1 core has the slowdown accuracy, but I can't confirm personally as I'm not a Jotego patreon. The public release should be out soon though now that there's a release candidate.
Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
it's good, yes, but just like on orginal hardware effects often times outweight the music volume. Would be great to get a manual mixer to increase CDDA audio compared to chip audio. On original hardware (interface unit) you could always use the CDDA output separately from the PCE's audio output (if use with a CGfx 1 or 2) and mix the audio levels on your own. I really miss that option here on the MiSTer.I also just realized that the newest build has the best audio balance I've heard compared to what you get from most hardware revisions I've used.
Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
Mister supports native pads connected directly to the core bypassing all USB interface - 'SNAC'Deubeul wrote:To believe this accuracy affirmation I'd need to test Rayxanber 2's 4th level on the miSTer.fernan1234 wrote:It's also already more accurate than the SSDS3 ODE. Not sure how it compares to the UGX-02 since I don't have experience with that one. Seek time related performance is also better than anything else I know of (including CD-ROM drives in good shape).
On real hardware, the slowdowns break the autofire of the avenue Pad6, and leave only the medium autofire speed usable on 2 buttons pads.
The game behaves exactly the same on the SSDS3.
Is it possible to use real PcE pads on MiSTer to begin with?
I can test this - will edit result later on
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scrilla4rella
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Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
I've been playing on this newly revised core a bunch over the last few days. It still blows my mind when I hear the CD sound coming through the speakers. Hoping they are able to implement the increased sprite limit as I was looking forward to playing R-Type Complete with it on.
Can't believe TO peeps are getting snarky over this. Makes me think twice about getting their upcoming Saturn ODE
Can't believe TO peeps are getting snarky over this. Makes me think twice about getting their upcoming Saturn ODE
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Re: PC Engine CD Support is Now On MiSTer
Think twice. As an old customer.