TV RGB mod thread

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flynnsbit
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Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:57 pm

Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by flynnsbit »

arfink wrote:I've been pointed this way by some folks who were unsuccessful in trying to help me RGB mod my monitor. Thanks in advance for the help! I'm currently trying to convert an old "prosumer" monitor for arcade use. It's the Proton 602M, and in its day it was a very high-end monitor. I got this one from the original owner, who barely used it since the 1980s, and the tube and chassis are still in absolutely fantastic shape for their age. It apparently has been serviced for a recap at least once in its life, so it was very well cared for. This monitor also had a special power supply with drive and deflection circuits built separated from eachother, with a crazy-weirdo split flyback like nothing I've seen before. As you can see, the convergence and geometry are still pristine. Hence, why I'd love to build it into an arcade machine.

Note that this monitor has no OSD, no closed captioning, no PIP, nothing of that sort. Originally it came with composite input and TTL RGB input, and that's it. Much of the onboard logic is done with discrete transistors, but there are a handful of ICs whose datasheets I cannot seem to find because of age.

(the image below was generated with composite input)
Image

Unfortunately I'm having issues with modding it for RGB, and I'm hoping some folks here could help or at least point me in the right direction. When I have my signals hooked up, it looks like this:

Image

Right now I have a Neo Geo MV1C mobo hooked up to it, and the RGB signals are attenuated with 240 ohm resistors, and the sync is attenuated with a 1k resistor. I am currently inputting sync through the composite input jack, and RGB are connected to some convenient test points labeled TP-54R, G, and B. You can see them on these circuit diagrams.

Annotated Circuit Diagram.Red and Green highlights indicate RGB input test points, yellow indicates various sync injection points I tried. Note that only sync injection point 1, the composite input, had any effect at all. All other injection points seemed to produce no image at all.

Block Diagram

More circuit diagrams for daughter boards

Additional Photos: https://photos.app.goo.gl/cF9RUwfsmknwD5LK9

I am not an expert at all, but are you sure you are not going into the RGB lines that go straight to the neck and skipping any benefits the IC would be giving you? Again, I could totally be wrong. If you are, there was someone in the thread that did that but it was a very different circuit that they had to make.
arfink
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat May 09, 2020 4:42 am

Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by arfink »

flynnsbit wrote:
arfink wrote:I've been pointed this way by some folks who were unsuccessful in trying to help me RGB mod my monitor. Thanks in advance for the help! I'm currently trying to convert an old "prosumer" monitor for arcade use. It's the Proton 602M, and in its day it was a very high-end monitor. I got this one from the original owner, who barely used it since the 1980s, and the tube and chassis are still in absolutely fantastic shape for their age. It apparently has been serviced for a recap at least once in its life, so it was very well cared for. This monitor also had a special power supply with drive and deflection circuits built separated from eachother, with a crazy-weirdo split flyback like nothing I've seen before. As you can see, the convergence and geometry are still pristine. Hence, why I'd love to build it into an arcade machine.

Note that this monitor has no OSD, no closed captioning, no PIP, nothing of that sort. Originally it came with composite input and TTL RGB input, and that's it. Much of the onboard logic is done with discrete transistors, but there are a handful of ICs whose datasheets I cannot seem to find because of age.

(the image below was generated with composite input)
Image

Unfortunately I'm having issues with modding it for RGB, and I'm hoping some folks here could help or at least point me in the right direction. When I have my signals hooked up, it looks like this:

Image

Right now I have a Neo Geo MV1C mobo hooked up to it, and the RGB signals are attenuated with 240 ohm resistors, and the sync is attenuated with a 1k resistor. I am currently inputting sync through the composite input jack, and RGB are connected to some convenient test points labeled TP-54R, G, and B. You can see them on these circuit diagrams.

Annotated Circuit Diagram.Red and Green highlights indicate RGB input test points, yellow indicates various sync injection points I tried. Note that only sync injection point 1, the composite input, had any effect at all. All other injection points seemed to produce no image at all.

Block Diagram

More circuit diagrams for daughter boards

Additional Photos: https://photos.app.goo.gl/cF9RUwfsmknwD5LK9

I am not an expert at all, but are you sure you are not going into the RGB lines that go straight to the neck and skipping any benefits the IC would be giving you? Again, I could totally be wrong. If you are, there was someone in the thread that did that but it was a very different circuit that they had to make.
Just wanted to pop back in to say, I decided to embrace the neck board approach, because I was running out of options and without an O-scope I wasn't going to figure out how the built-in video processing circuit was working. (I did this mod reversibly so I can come back with a borrowed scope later on and do this properly and keep the black level circuit.)

Just fed the MVS signal directly into the neckboard with 1k resistors and a 1k on the sync line. I did have to go back and adjust gain, bias, and screen values to get something that displayed a picture and hid retrace while getting acceptable brightness, but it looks real nice with the MVS. Obviously, this would not be a good plan for a multi-console CRT, because you'd need to retune gain and screen for each console for the blacks to display right, and it likely wouldn't even work with most consoles because it would also need an AC-coupled video amp, but in my specific intended application it can work because this tube will only ever run an MVS board. It's going into a dedicated cab.

Image
Last edited by arfink on Sun May 10, 2020 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
flynnsbit
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by flynnsbit »

Congrats,your image post from google didn't work right. Would love to see what you posted.

I am still knee deep in my sony 13". I posted this over to reddit hoping there were more eyes on things as it seems not many over here in this thread.

I am in the middle of trying to mod a Sony 13" KV-13m10 to accept RGB and need someone with experience (EE) or know the mux process. I've tried in inject directly into the RGB in on pins 16-18 on the jungle chip. The screen will just go black if I blank on Pin 15 (YS). Here is my sets diagram: https://i.imgur.com/gOU5321.png
Did I build the caps + 75 ohm to ground right here? https://i.imgur.com/Umo55Om.jpg
I tried with just .1uf caps on the RGB lines, and with termination to ground using 75 ohm resistors.

I am going to try the OSD mux method to see if I can get closer. Question: If I am muxing into and there are 100p Caps at C051-053, 220ohm Resistors at R025-027 and then c220 at C023-25. Where is the best place on the circuit to inject?
https://i.imgur.com/NH58kL2.png
What should my new resistor values be, and do I need to remove anything from the board? https://i.imgur.com/dNeOQR3.jpg
arfink
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by arfink »

flynnsbit wrote:Congrats,your image post from google didn't work right. Would love to see what you posted.

I am still knee deep in my sony 13". I posted this over to reddit hoping there were more eyes on things as it seems not many over here in this thread.

I am in the middle of trying to mod a Sony 13" KV-13m10 to accept RGB and need someone with experience (EE) or know the mux process. I've tried in inject directly into the RGB in on pins 16-18 on the jungle chip. The screen will just go black if I blank on Pin 15 (YS). Here is my sets diagram: https://i.imgur.com/gOU5321.png
Did I build the caps + 75 ohm to ground right here? https://i.imgur.com/Umo55Om.jpg
I tried with just .1uf caps on the RGB lines, and with termination to ground using 75 ohm resistors.

I am going to try the OSD mux method to see if I can get closer. Question: If I am muxing into and there are 100p Caps at C051-053, 220ohm Resistors at R025-027 and then c220 at C023-25. Where is the best place on the circuit to inject?
https://i.imgur.com/NH58kL2.png
What should my new resistor values be, and do I need to remove anything from the board? https://i.imgur.com/dNeOQR3.jpg
Maybe this works better?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/C3VCkLFgtTFHrY7u7

Image

BTW, I tweaked it some more. Removed the 1k resistors from the RGB input lines and get significantly better brightness and contrast, just had to fiddle the gains a bit more and was able to increase the screen/G2 setting without retrace or bloom issues. Looks positively poppin` now. Gotta get my phone recharged so I can take some more shots.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by maxtherabbit »

Spoiler
Image
Image
gonna do a writeup on this one, it's super easy and the TV is amazing quality
flynnsbit
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by flynnsbit »

Got mine going as well FINALLY!!!

For future reference if someone has a Sony KV-13M10 chassis is SCC-G92A-A. Remove 16-18 from the board. It is easier to cut the board than it would be to pull up the pins as they can break easily. Just cut between them on the bottom of the board so they are not connected to each other and where R325 is grounded.


Then .1uf caps on each RGB line and striaght into the pins. Looks like this:
https://i.imgur.com/y7hrcix.jpg

Ground was pulled from an open ground next to audio/composite where it looked like a blank connector spot for assuming the Red side of audio for a stereo unit. 5v pulled from the board TP95 5v and connected to the blanking pin on 15 of the same jungle chip.

Image

Sync into Composite.

https://i.imgur.com/2t8e0Bq.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/UDrbUuQ.jpg

Video switching between RGB and composite for fun : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YRMaYyp5xE
flynnsbit
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by flynnsbit »

maxtherabbit wrote:
Spoiler

gonna do a writeup on this one, it's super easy and the TV is amazing quality
What model of JVC is it? Would you pick it over a Larger XBR?
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maxtherabbit
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by maxtherabbit »

flynnsbit wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
Spoiler

gonna do a writeup on this one, it's super easy and the TV is amazing quality
What model of JVC is it? Would you pick it over a Larger XBR?
AV-32D302 and yes absolutely I would
flynnsbit
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by flynnsbit »

maxtherabbit wrote:
flynnsbit wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
Spoiler

gonna do a writeup on this one, it's super easy and the TV is amazing quality
What model of JVC is it? Would you pick it over a Larger XBR?
AV-32D302 and yes absolutely I would
Ahh.... D-Series. I have my morning searches for one here in Dallas. It's on the list.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by maxtherabbit »

Ok step by step D-series RGB mod time - this applies to the AV-32D302 with the 25-pin PIP footprint. This may vary, even with the same model, but process will still be 90% the same.

Firstly, drill out the three blank holes next to the component inputs. If you wish to locate the switch as pictured you will have to desolder the "av compulink" connector. I did not, so I used a blank audio jack, shown in red.
Spoiler
Image
Use a slightly undersized drill bit, and finish with a rat tail file. Screw in the BNC jacks. We don't use SCART, because we aren't smoothbrained.
Spoiler
Image
Prepare the jacks. Each one should be terminated with 75R, and we tie the grounds together. To facilitate the OSD mux, we employ 390R series resistors, as determined by the spreadsheet. Solder on your RGB and ground wires now.
Spoiler
Image
This is the single most "difficult" part of the operation. We are looking at the back of the PCB focused on the micro-controller. Note the 3 330R resistors shown in red outline, they are the OSD pull-downs, and they need to be removed. They are designated R793, R794, and R795. The resistors pointed to by the yellow arrow are the OSD series resistors, and will be left alone, but we note their value as 2.2k to determine our series resistance on RGB via the spreadsheet.
Spoiler
Image
Use a hot air tool or soldering iron to remove the pull-downs, and clean the pads. Should look like this when complete
Spoiler
Image
Next we move up toward the jungle chip. This is the back of the unpopulated PIP header. The 4 resistors outlined in red are zero-ohm jumpers that connect the RGB and fast blanking (Ys) from the micon to the jungle chip. Strictly speaking you do not have to remove them, but I recommend you do. Replacing the RGB jumpers with diodes protects the external RGB source from being loaded down by the micon's OSD lines.
Spoiler
Image
Note that different values in the spreadsheet apply if you use diodes vs. not using them. I also removed the Ys jumper so I could use a SPDT to switch the jungle's Ys input between the OSD Ys signal, and +5 to force it high when using external RGB.
Spoiler
Image
The SMD diodes are just a bit oversized for the 0805 pads. They would be a better fit for 1206 pads but we make it work. Diode polarity allows current to flow from the OSD into the jungle chip.
Spoiler
Image
Here's the real killer part of modding this TV. Since the backplate is not part of the overall case, and all signals are accessible on these super convenient jumper wires, we can get away with only about 3" of wire for our external video inputs. W745 is analog ground. W703 is +5. W697 is Ys to JUNGLE. W785 is Ys from MICON. W768 is R. W 771 is G. W774 is B.
Spoiler
Image
Make sure you leave just enough slack on your wires to allow the backplate to clear the Video Switch PCB so it can be removed and installed. Wire a SPDT (or DPDT like I did) with common as Ys to Jungle. One pole is +5, the other is Ys from Micon. It tucks in there nicely between the audio input and audio outputs.
Spoiler
Image
Switch needs a washer to fit in the RCA sized hole. Putting it in the AV compulink spot would be cleaner, but I didn't want to lose functionality, no matter how trivial.
Spoiler
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unabletoconnect
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by unabletoconnect »

suprcrackers wrote:Has anyone ever tried a RGB mod on a PVM-14L1? Looking at the datasheet it has a TDA9394H/N. I can't find a datasheet on this jungle. Pins 51-53 look interesting to me, but the blanking pin is designated by just (x). Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Image

Image
Hey suprcrackers,

Were you able to get RGB working with this PVM?
MarkOZLAD
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by MarkOZLAD »

Nice mod maxtherabbit
___________________________________________________
MarkOZLAD
OSD/External RGB Mux Diagram
OSD/External RGB Mux Resistor Value Table 0.7Vp-p : 0.5Vp-p

"Imagine toggle switch OSD modding a TV in 2019" - maxtherabbit
soniccd123
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by soniccd123 »

I don't know if its of interest of you guys, but i think it may be helpful to someone to post the results of a mod i just did.

I've installed with great sucess a RGB mod in a cheap and modern (2009) Panasonic TC-14RM15L. As it does not have a separated jungle chip and microcontroller, i installed the mod directly to the neckboard, using a 3PDT switch to select the signal (original wiring or the RGB mod). To control the image i installed potentiometer controlled voltage dividers (a 50K pot + 1K resistor).

I hope it can help someone reading. I can post schematics and photos if someone has interest.
AetherPi
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by AetherPi »

I started to modify my MD20Q42 yesterday. I wired everything up like I had planed. When RGB was sent through, the picture was slightly clearer but the color was awful, and it didn't change color if the R, G, or B inputs were switched. I had also wired the 5v blanking signal up to a switch toggle, which made no changes when toggled. I had tested the TV after I had soldered the wires to the jungle chip, so I opted to first change the wires to 5v and ground to a different source, this being part of the power. I turned on the TV, everything worked, but when I switched the 5v switch the display went out, with the power indicator still on. I haven't been able to get any display since. There are no noticeable signs of damage on the motherboard.
Album: https://imgur.com/a/OkyHAwr
Where should I start troubleshooting?
bigthumbs2511
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by bigthumbs2511 »

Well, my first try wasn't a complete failure! Could use some help trouble shooting though. Here is my KV-27S66. It uses the BA-4D chassis which has been explored in this thread. I had trouble finding where to solder for sync on composite, so I pulled it and audio from IC203. I could also use a detailed pinout for the scart as I feel like I took some shortcuts with comining different line's grounds.

Here's the service manual https://www.manualslib.com/download/159 ... 27s42.html

As well as some pictures. The blanking switch I installed doesn't seem to be making any changes.

Image
Image
Image
Image

Thanks!
flynnsbit
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by flynnsbit »

What pin are you using for blanking. That looks like YM instead of YS. It also looks like sync isn't right. What is the source and is it RGBHV instead of RGBS? oh and sync should just come off the yellow composite connector. Just use a plug.
bigthumbs2511
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by bigthumbs2511 »

I'm going to disassemble and verify my points for 5v and sync. I pull AV1 from the IC203 chip, but I can just connect an rca to the sync pin of the scart socket and plug that rca into the composite video plug. Thanks! Hope to report back with success soon.
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evilsim
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by evilsim »

this thread is so great ive learnt heaps and have been doing this for a while, but I mostly still suck at it.

this week however, I was able to repair a PVM-1954Q with the R G B lines at the top by replacing 2 caps, one with a higher value :)
secondly I just finished rgb modding a TM-H150CG which I have had sitting around for some time, by using a Mini Arduino Pro to intercept the i2c bus and allow brightness and a crisp RGB image when YS2 is set to fast blanking. Looks sensational, I will probably sell my Sony 10" CRT and use this JVC.

I wish I could leave some kudos for the guys who posted the pages about the mod and the creator of the softi2c github resource, well I guess I just did. Thanks for all who provided information on modding the TM-H150CG, its a little gem of a monitor (when RGB is enabled).
skum
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by skum »

evilsim wrote: secondly I just finished rgb modding a TM-H150CG which I have had sitting around for some time, by using a Mini Arduino Pro to intercept the i2c bus and allow brightness and a crisp RGB image when YS2 is set to fast blanking.
To my knowledge the I2C interception should not be needed on TM-H150CGs as they're already RGB "compatible". Did you try without first?

EDIT: Ah wait, or is that to allow brightness to be set when not tricking the monitor into thinking the card is in?

Which software did you use?

And yes, it's an awesome monitor.
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evilsim
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by evilsim »

skum wrote: To my knowledge the I2C interception should not be needed on TM-H150CGs as they're already RGB "compatible". Did you try without first?

EDIT: Ah wait, or is that to allow brightness to be set when not tricking the monitor into thinking the card is in?

Which software did you use?

And yes, it's an awesome monitor.
I tried without about a year ago and no picture. I was quite excited when I found the post on your site about the Arduino solution.
I ended up hacking up my sdi unit on the back and changed them to r g b inputs :) I'll never use sdi SD ports...

Ok I made a mistake my model is a TM-1051D.

Cheers
flynnsbit
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by flynnsbit »

My 13 inch Trinitron is all back in his home. I think this is the best looking out my Sony PVM and my xp29. That sony 13 inch is just crisp and bright. Pictures dont do it justice. I wired up the button to light up when on and blanking since I already had it. I installed it next to the headphone jack in the front. Very easy to switch modes and I think it looks nice.

Image
Image
Image

Thanks again for all who helped me. I am going to do my 27 inch Trinitron next. These are fun!
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Speedy
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Speedy »

I just picked up a KV-27XBR51 that looks great.
The set is only S-Video though and I'm hoping to mod it for RGB.
Is RGB modding this CRT possible?
If so, are there any kits or walkthroughs?

Here's my new CRT:
Image

Thanks!
flynnsbit
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by flynnsbit »

Speedy wrote:I just picked up a KV-27XBR51 that looks great.
The set is only S-Video though and I'm hoping to mod it for RGB.
Is RGB modding this CRT possible?
If so, are there any kits or walkthroughs?

Here's my new CRT:


Thanks!
Unless I am crazy, that set looks like it already has an input for RGB. Does it have Component in on the back? If not, find CN133 and go straight into 6-8 and composite?

Image
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Tengugurl
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Tengugurl »

:shock: can't find out how to delete this post. Newer post below
Last edited by Tengugurl on Sun May 17, 2020 4:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Tengugurl
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Tengugurl »

Hi all!
I am working on RGB Mux modding a BA-4D chassis on a Trinitron KV- 27S46.

Almost mux'ed but, I am running into an issue....
Prob: I am unable to see an image unless I have the menu up. See image links here:

Http://imgur.com/gallery/DhPOeKA


Here is my setup if it helps:
1) Scart port using a retro access Scart cable with sync stripper
2) Sega Genesis

Followed the guide here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=56155&p=1342960&hil ... d#p1342960


Thanks so much! I bet this is not the first time someone has had this issue before lol
flynnsbit
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by flynnsbit »

Tengugurl wrote:Hi all!
I am working on RGB Mux modding a BA-4D chassis on a Trinitron KV- 27S46.

Almost mux'ed but, I am running into an issue....
Prob: I am unable to see an image unless I have the menu up. See image links here:

Http://imgur.com/gallery/DhPOeKA


Here is my setup if it helps:
1) Scart port using a retro access Scart cable with sync stripper
2) Sega Genesis

Followed the guide here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=56155&p=1342960&hil ... d#p1342960


Thanks so much! I bet this is not the first time someone has had this issue before lol
What pin did you use for blanking? That looks like YM instead of YS.
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Tengugurl
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Tengugurl »

Hi!
I soldered to R028 and added a 1k resistor inline to the switch.


Unless I read the pic wrong? I am not the best at technical spec pics. (Link above shows the pics I followed)
flynnsbit
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by flynnsbit »

Does the TV actually blank when you flip the switch and go black? Then if you hit the menu button it shows the image masked through it? So there is a difference when you flip the switch?
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Tengugurl
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Tengugurl »

It changes a bit, one way it shows a full image, the other flip of the switch makes the image smaller and off center.

I am wondering, instead of soldering to that one resistor spot, should I just solder to the blanking leg on the jungle?


You know, just avoid finding a spot that is along the path of the blanking, rather, just go right to the source?
Last edited by Tengugurl on Sun May 17, 2020 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Speedy
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Speedy »

flynnsbit wrote:
Speedy wrote:I just picked up a KV-27XBR51 that looks great.
The set is only S-Video though and I'm hoping to mod it for RGB.
Is RGB modding this CRT possible?
If so, are there any kits or walkthroughs?
Thanks!
Unless I am crazy, that set looks like it already has an input for RGB. Does it have Component in on the back? If not, find CN133 and go straight into 6-8 and composite?
You can't go directly into the additional RGB header on the XBR51 like you can on the XBR55 according to this site and the YouTube video it links to: http://pcbjunkie.net/index.php/projects ... le-modchip

Apparently Sony disabled the additional RGB header on the XBR51 unlike the XBR55 which uses it for PiP (picture-in-picture).

It looks like pins 16, 17, & 18 (red below) can't be used unless I build a custom modchip as described on the PCB Junkie site I linked to above.
With that said, would it be easier to somehow use pins 12, 11, & 10 (green below)?
If so, what other pins would I use and would that result in muxing the OSD & RGB or would I have a switch?

Here's a picture of the IC301 Y/C/J chip:
Image

Also, here's a link to the entire service manual: https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ao2MqUeQXiS5cWZACYWmdB-B3g4
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