Fudoh's ode to old display technology

The place for all discussion on gaming hardware
Namingway_PL
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:14 am

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Namingway_PL »

FinalBaton wrote:Sweet, does Netflix on PS3 automatically sends Eva as a 4:3? or did you activate underscan or some other option to get it to display like that?
If the video content is in 4:3, like Eva on Netflix, and the PS3 is set to 4:3, the video will be displayed at full screen :)

One thing I still need to try on my PS3 and my JVC monitor, is 1080/24psF on blu ray movies, but I need a HDMI to HD SDI converter to do this.
User avatar
FinalBaton
Posts: 4461
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:38 pm
Location: Québec City

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by FinalBaton »

Namingway_PL wrote:If the video content is in 4:3, like Eva on Netflix, and the PS3 is set to 4:3, the video will be displayed at full screen :)

One thing I still need to try on my PS3 and my JVC monitor, is 1080/24psF on blu ray movies, but I need a HDMI to HD SDI converter to do this.
That's pretty cool, didn't know Netflix displayed 4;3 content in 4:3 AR. I had assumed they hardcoded pillarboxes on each side to display it in a 16:9 window, which many services/BD do.
-FM Synth & Black Metal-
User avatar
Einzelherz
Posts: 1279
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:09 am

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Einzelherz »

Wouldn't that increase their bandwidth use?
User avatar
Fudoh
Posts: 13015
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:29 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Fudoh »

One thing I still need to try on my PS3 and my JVC monitor, is 1080/24psF on blu ray movies, but I need a HDMI to HD SDI converter to do this.
don't mix up 24psf with 24p. I'm pretty sure that the PS3 does not support psf (segmented frame output). 24psf in an interlaced output format (48i) that carries a fixed 2:2 pulldown. Just like accelerated PAL movies (25p) on DVDs and PAL television broadcasts (50i).

24psf was a very early attempt to bring stutterfree 24p playback to projectors that could already handle 1080i50.
Namingway_PL
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:14 am

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Namingway_PL »

As always, You are right, Fudoh. Thanks for clearing this up!

Some time ago, I had a cheap HDMI to HD SDI converter. I've set the PS3 to 1080p, fired up a blu ray movie, and hooked the HDMI cable to the converter, and for a brief second "1080/24psf" poped up on the screen of the JVC, but lost sync. So I've assumed that, this could work with a proper converter.

Anyways, watching blu ray movies on a 17" 4:3 screen, is not the best idea for doing this ;)
Taco_Human
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:29 pm

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Taco_Human »

Hey guys, longt time lurker here. Just like to pop in to post that my 36XBR800 is dying. It's a 4:3 HD CRT. I looked it up online, and I don't really have the electronic skills to safely fix it. I may have to junk it. :/ Definitely interested in learning.
User avatar
brentsg
Posts: 2303
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:01 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO USA

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by brentsg »

Just checking in to see if this is on anyone's radar to play with:

http://www.decimator.com/Products/MiniC ... CROSS.html
Breaking news: Dodonpachi Developer Cave Releases Hello Kitty Game
User avatar
Fudoh
Posts: 13015
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:29 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Fudoh »

are you interested for its SDI functionality or its HDMI to HDMI capabilities?

Most machines that are supposed to convert from or to SDI have severe problems with anything non-spec and you're likely looking at framerate conversions. Other than that the 4K HDMI to HDMI function sounds good at this price point, but without frame lock, without advertised 4:4:4 processing path and without any background on how solid the scaling engine is supposed to be, it's not worth picking one up.
nissling
Posts: 454
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 8:12 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by nissling »

The Decimators are mainly aimed for people within broadcast or movie industry. Like being able to convert 4K to 2K in real-time for quick dailies during shooting. You are limited to the available outputs formats, which includes both frame rates and resolution. For regular sources like Blu-Ray players, Apple TV etc it's all to be expected. Also it can do force reversal 3:2 pulldown to remove telecinic judder with essentially flawless results when the frames are in sync.

It can process YCbCr 4:4:4 and RGB full range for HDMI. Usage is limited for consumers. I'm using one for 24p->24psf conversion and it's really great for that single purpose. HDMI<->SDI conversions are also wonderful, which isn't strange. Upscaling however is overall fairly soft and not really pretty to look at, especially not on a CRT display. Downscaling fares a bit better but don't expect any real miracles. Also it's not HDCP compilance, at least not when converting HDMI to SDI, which I guess should be expected as SDI doesn't have any encryption.
User avatar
Unseen
Posts: 723
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:12 pm
Contact:

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Unseen »

nissling wrote:Also it's not HDCP compilance, at least not when converting HDMI to SDI, which I guess should be expected as SDI doesn't have any encryption.
So it does output an SDI signal when the input is HDCP encrypted? That's surprising, but extremely useful - devices from well-known manufacturers are usually following the HDCP spec and refuse to output an unencrypted signal from an encrypted input.
nissling
Posts: 454
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 8:12 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by nissling »

Unseen wrote:So it does output an SDI signal when the input is HDCP encrypted?
No, not from my experience. Basically not HDCP compliant (I used the wrong term in my previous post). Not sure about the HDMI output however. I use an HDMI splitter to get around the HDCP encryption for conversion to SDI.

I don't think a device which advertises an HDCP killer feature would be suitable for any "serious" retailer to sell, as major manufacturers most likely don't want to sell their products that uses HDCP.
User avatar
kitty666cats
Posts: 1270
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:03 am
Location: Massachusetts, USA

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by kitty666cats »

https://www.vitecco.de/signalwandler-ko ... ter-su-314

Image

Image

Never seen this before, pretty cool design and woulda been cool if it was more well known back in its day / wasn't 2damn expensive!
User avatar
Crayfish
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:09 am
Contact:

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Crayfish »

Guys, a heads up that I will have two NEC XP 37" Pro monitors (with remotes) coming up for sale UK (East Anglia) soon.
Main post in sales forum here if interested:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=60394&p=1407391#p1407391

Image
Last edited by Crayfish on Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SuperSpongo
Posts: 315
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:49 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by SuperSpongo »

Link doesn't work for me.
User avatar
Crayfish
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:09 am
Contact:

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Crayfish »

SuperSpongo wrote:Link doesn't work for me.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=60394&p=1407391#p1407391
SuperSpongo
Posts: 315
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:49 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by SuperSpongo »

Great, thanks!
User avatar
kitty666cats
Posts: 1270
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:03 am
Location: Massachusetts, USA

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by kitty666cats »

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PC-SCART-TV-RG ... Swn-tZIxE4

lol, any European posters ever see anything like this back when they were younger? This thing looks fun, I am tempted to order it...

Image
User avatar
FinalBaton
Posts: 4461
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:38 pm
Location: Québec City

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by FinalBaton »

it's probably a 9-pin connector for CGA and EGA and Tandy grafx standard. You got a PC of this old at home? (I'd actually like to have an older PC/compatible at some point, that's be fun)
-FM Synth & Black Metal-
User avatar
kitty666cats
Posts: 1270
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:03 am
Location: Massachusetts, USA

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by kitty666cats »

FinalBaton wrote:it's probably a 9-pin connector for CGA and EGA and Tandy grafx standard. You got a PC of this old at home? (I'd actually like to have an older PC/compatible at some point, that's be fun)
That's what I figured, which is why I am not gonna grab it, heh. Don't have a CGA/EGA PC kickin' around, just plain old VGA. But it's sure a fun looking lil' device!
tongshadow
Posts: 613
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:11 pm

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by tongshadow »

So yea, thinking about getting a pro monitor. Now I basically have 2 choices: The BVM-A14F5U (no RGB, but has S-Video); or the PVM-1454 (has RGB).
I know how rare the analog video card is, but considering that the BVM is the superior display, would S-Video be enough and make up the difference vs the PVM's RGB?
User avatar
FinalBaton
Posts: 4461
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:38 pm
Location: Québec City

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by FinalBaton »

tongshadow wrote:So yea, thinking about getting a pro monitor. Now I basically have 2 choices: The BVM-A14F5U (no RGB, but has S-Video); or the PVM-1454 (has RGB).
I know how rare the analog video card is, but considering that the BVM is the superior display, would S-Video be enough and make up the difference vs the PVM's RGB?
One crucial data we need to know to help you is : what kind of CRT picture do you like?
-FM Synth & Black Metal-
User avatar
maxtherabbit
Posts: 1763
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:03 pm

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by maxtherabbit »

tongshadow wrote:So yea, thinking about getting a pro monitor. Now I basically have 2 choices: The BVM-A14F5U (no RGB, but has S-Video); or the PVM-1454 (has RGB).
I know how rare the analog video card is, but considering that the BVM is the superior display, would S-Video be enough and make up the difference vs the PVM's RGB?
Not if you like color fidelity
tongshadow
Posts: 613
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:11 pm

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by tongshadow »

FinalBaton wrote:
tongshadow wrote:So yea, thinking about getting a pro monitor. Now I basically have 2 choices: The BVM-A14F5U (no RGB, but has S-Video); or the PVM-1454 (has RGB).
I know how rare the analog video card is, but considering that the BVM is the superior display, would S-Video be enough and make up the difference vs the PVM's RGB?
One crucial data we need to know to help you is : what kind of CRT picture do you like?
I dont have specific preferences, but I really notice bad geometry. I want to use it for 480i sources mostly.
fernan1234
Posts: 2175
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:34 pm

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by fernan1234 »

A14, no doubt.
User avatar
FinalBaton
Posts: 4461
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:38 pm
Location: Québec City

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by FinalBaton »

tongshadow wrote:I dont have specific preferences, but I really notice bad geometry. I want to use it for 480i sources mostly.
That's a really important bit of info too : know that forsome people, 480i is not at it's best on monitors with really fine pitch (blanked lines too visible, are ''shaking'' on screen), most prefer a bit softer picture (softer is relative : 600 TVL like that other PVM, is still hella sharp). but some do like it on higher pitch monitors yeah

On my 20L5, 480i doesn't look nearly as good as on other lower spec'd monitors I had. not my favourite on there (but I'm a weirdo : I also think that 480p doen't look at it's best on there. because of the visible blanked lines). I like a more uniform picture for 480i. My favourite for this is : slot shadowmask tube. but my Sony consumer RGB set is ace too.

Also I gotta say : in most cases I can hardly look at S-video prsonally. It's a great signal and for consoles I don't care as much about, it is perfectly fine. But in my day to day setup I couldn'tlive with my SNES, PS1 and Genesis(I know it doesn't spit it ou natively) outputting S-video.It'd bug me knowing that I can have better coloursthan this. If you told me I could only ever use S-video on my PVM/consumer RGB crt, I'd be real unhappy.

Opinins vary tho, plenty of people have an S-video rig and are happy with that. Only you will know.

From pics I've seen, JVC seems to have implemented S-video particularly well on their prosumer and pro monitors. Doesn't look bad at all on there. But it's still no RGB.
-FM Synth & Black Metal-
User avatar
vol.2
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:13 pm
Location: bmore

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by vol.2 »

kitty666cats wrote:https://www.ebay.com/itm/PC-SCART-TV-RG ... Swn-tZIxE4

lol, any European posters ever see anything like this back when they were younger? This thing looks fun, I am tempted to order it...
The box says "suppports CGA" in the corner. That means what it does is converts the "intensity pin" to approximate the alternative of each CGA color. The question with these things is usually how they deal with dark yellow, which is supposed to have a special circuit in the monitor to convert it to brown.

If it really does do CGA properly, then it would be kind cool, but it would also be extremely single use-case. Tandy and other 8/16 bit computers like C64, Atari ST et al use RGB and wouldn't work with it.
User avatar
kitty666cats
Posts: 1270
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:03 am
Location: Massachusetts, USA

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by kitty666cats »

vol.2 wrote:
kitty666cats wrote:https://www.ebay.com/itm/PC-SCART-TV-RG ... Swn-tZIxE4

lol, any European posters ever see anything like this back when they were younger? This thing looks fun, I am tempted to order it...
The box says "suppports CGA" in the corner. That means what it does is converts the "intensity pin" to approximate the alternative of each CGA color. The question with these things is usually how they deal with dark yellow, which is supposed to have a special circuit in the monitor to convert it to brown.

If it really does do CGA properly, then it would be kind cool, but it would also be extremely single use-case. Tandy and other 8/16 bit computers like C64, Atari ST et al use RGB and wouldn't work with it.
Yeah, I knew it was CGA. So I wouldn't get to have much fun with it... reminds me of what my friend and I picked up the other month: an ENORMOUS Mitsubishi TV/monitor from the 80s with EIAJ RGBI / a switch for CGA colorspaces. And a switch based on what part of the planet's polarity the TV's ass is pointing! xD He has fun stuff he could rock on it, though! Psyched for him. It's like 40 dang inches haha
User avatar
FinalBaton
Posts: 4461
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:38 pm
Location: Québec City

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by FinalBaton »

While I do mostly prefer 480p on slot shadow mask tubes,

I fired up Soul Calibur 2 in progressive scan on the PVM-20L5 last night and uhhh... wut? This is straight up insane...

It is so unbelievly clear and crisp, and the perceived dynamic range of the picture is really impressive. flat-out astounding even. colours hyper tight. kind of otherwordly looking picture, It is really fun to thinker with. no gaussian blur at all tho, so you see graphics in are their low res glory. Now I need to try 1080i ps2 games on this thing.

Fiddled with the PVM-2950 some more. I finally found the perfect settings for it, which is a relief. I gotta say, it looks really lovely.
Only thing that annoys me a little bit is that the light blues are a touch too strong/blown out, and that's something I notice too on pictures/videos of this set, so looks like it was set that way from the factory. If I ever find the remote for cheap (which could take a while), I'll try ajusting Blue Gain a bit. We'll see if makes the light blues better without affecting the rest of colours too much(I feel like it'll be a compromise type of thing). Other than that I like the colours on it. Gamed all evening on it and it looks great

On the whole, the colours of the 2950, to my eye are not quite as ''tight'' as on the 2530/KV-25XBR (the dark-tinted tube of the latter two may help them achieve richer dark colours i think. Those sets really pop and have creamy whites which look awesome, again probs partly due to the tinted glass) although in some areas the 2950 is better (the lighter colour reproduction is really vibrant and beautiful. Probs benefit from better contrast in that range). Which also checks out with pictures and videos I've seen that showcase those sets. It looks more like a hyper-tight consumer set, or arcade monitor, than a mid/hi grade PVM. And there's nothing wrong with that! The screen is huge and fighting games ar amazing on this thing. Played Soul Calibur 2 on it as well and it looked really great, even tho it's 480i.

EDIT: rewatched Steve from RetroTech's video and it seems like other Sony remotes will work, as long as they have a few key buttons. I'll dig out my Sony remotes and check if I have one that fits the bill.
-FM Synth & Black Metal-
Dochartaigh
Posts: 1519
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:53 pm

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by Dochartaigh »

FinalBaton wrote: EDIT: rewatched Steve from RetroTech's video and it seems like other Sony remotes will work, as long as they have a few key buttons. I'll dig out my Sony remotes and check if I have one that fits the bill.
You can use multiple remotes at once too. To get into the service menu on my KV-25DXR I had either two or three remotes laid out (my 3230's, FV310, and some random Sony one, think from a VTR or something), and I was able to hit the correct buttons in order to get into the service menu! Since found the real remote (supposedly the first remote with an alphanumeric keyboard ever) so don't need to go that extreme anymore thankfully.
User avatar
FinalBaton
Posts: 4461
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:38 pm
Location: Québec City

Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology

Post by FinalBaton »

^^^^^^^
Ok, thanks for that info

Well, I found the remote I had kept from my KV-36FV300 (RMY182), and I was able to do everything with just that one! including full normal menu operation on top of service. awesome!

Image

I was afraid I couldn't save my settings, since I had seen someone state in a thread on here that you need the button ''12'' to save a setting change. But it's just not true, I was able to save by hitting ''write'' and then ''enter''. It even kept my change after unplugging the monitor (I tried this, because on my FV300, there was 2 levels of saving : one where it sticks until you unplug the TV, and another one where it sticks even when you unplug the TV).

Only command I didn't find, is : how do you move backwards in the service menu? I would select options and advance deeper in the menu, but when came time to move back a step or two to select another feature to adjust, I had to simply shut the TV off since I didn't find any command to move back. (But you know, reading about Sony service menu commands, I can't seem to find any mention of ''go back'' (or ''return'' etc) actually Image Maybe the option is just not there on those TVs?)

That remote happens to be nice to use, it's got weight and feels good to the touch, and it's got everything for normal menu too. the knob at center is used to scroll up and down through menu items and it feels nicer than having 2 little chiclet buttons to press instead.

Awesome now I can access menu and change screen size/position without getting off the couch, and it didn't even cost me a penny.


EDIT : figured out that if I press a line input button on the monitor, it takes me back to top of service menu. but I couldn't figure out how to exit service menu without turning off the monitor
-FM Synth & Black Metal-
Post Reply