Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

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Shepardus
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by Shepardus »

Despatche wrote:You do realize you're talking about the shmup genre, where resources trivialize a lot of any game's design? Like, the whole point of a bomb is to make entire patterns and enemy formations go away, and without punishment in nearly all cases. There are tons of games that raise difficulty specifically based on what resources you have, in order to threaten the player with a more challenging game. To not consider raw difficulty is to act as if Garegga and the like are the only kind of shmups that exist. To not consider raw difficulty is also to buy into the whole "impossible quarter munching arcade games" bullshit, and I know you two are better than that.

Kinect DDP is not a good example, because Kinect DDP is not a good example of anything.
IMO considering "raw difficulty" makes sense only if you accept that shooting and dodging are the "real" game and lives and bombs are something tacked onto it. Which for many games is the case or at least seems like it, but I feel like that shouldn't be the norm.
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NTSC-J: You know STGs are in trouble when you have threads on how to introduce them to a wider audience and get more people playing followed by threads on how to get its hardcore fan base to play them, too.
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WarpedByTheNHK
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by WarpedByTheNHK »

Thanks to the efforts of this thread and these two threads:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=64428&hilit=difficulty
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=59651
I have a pretty good idea of the difficulty of various games, but I there are still several popular games that I can't help but wonder about, so if anyone has happened to clear these games, please way in on how difficult you think various types of clears are within them: Einhander, Judgment Silversword, Parsec47, Mountain of Faith on hard mode, Mecha Ritz Steel Rondo, Ginga Force, and ZeroRanger 2-ALL.

I know this I am asking for a lot, but this sort of thing really helps me a lot.
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by Square_Air »

WarpedByTheNHK wrote:Thanks to the efforts of this thread and these two threads:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=64428&hilit=difficulty
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=59651
I have a pretty good idea of the difficulty of various games, but I there are still several popular games that I can't help but wonder about, so if anyone has happened to clear these games, please way in on how difficult you think various types of clears are within them: Einhander, Judgment Silversword, Parsec47, Mountain of Faith on hard mode, Mecha Ritz Steel Rondo, Ginga Force, and ZeroRanger 2-ALL.

I know this I am asking for a lot, but this sort of thing really helps me a lot.
  • Judgment Silversword Normal clear with the standard ship (S-AIXRK) is about a 22/23
  • Mountain Of Faith hard mode clear with Reimu-B is about a 14/15
Can't say I have enough experience in the other games to really say, but I assume that none of them surpass 30.
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WarpedByTheNHK
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by WarpedByTheNHK »

Square_Air wrote:
WarpedByTheNHK wrote:Thanks to the efforts of this thread and these two threads:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=64428&hilit=difficulty
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=59651
I have a pretty good idea of the difficulty of various games, but I there are still several popular games that I can't help but wonder about, so if anyone has happened to clear these games, please way in on how difficult you think various types of clears are within them: Einhander, Judgment Silversword, Parsec47, Mountain of Faith on hard mode, Mecha Ritz Steel Rondo, Ginga Force, and ZeroRanger 2-ALL.

I know this I am asking for a lot, but this sort of thing really helps me a lot.
  • Judgment Silversword Normal clear with the standard ship (S-AIXRK) is about a 22/23
  • Mountain Of Faith hard mode clear with Reimu-B is about a 14/15
Can't say I have enough experience in the other games to really say, but I assume that none of them surpass 30.
That is about what I expected for Mountain of Faith, but wow! I was not expecting Judgment Silversword to be that much harder than Eschatos. Two of the mysteries solved is more than enough, I was not expecting one person to have all the answers anyway, so thanks a lot. Hopefully someone else has some idea for some of the others.
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by Square_Air »

WarpedByTheNHK wrote:That is about what I expected for Mountain of Faith, but wow! I was not expecting Judgment Silversword to be that much harder than Eschatos. Two of the mysteries solved is more than enough, I was not expecting one person to have all the answers anyway, so thanks a lot. Hopefully someone else has some idea for some of the others.
I would move lots of things around on the Japanese list, but JSS is at least a 20 for me. IIRC Eschatos normal is around the 12-15 range, though it's been years so it's a little hard to properly judge. The big difference comes down to the shield being so much more powerful in Eschatos and the boss rush at the end of JSS is tougher than any part of Eschatos normal.
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by BurlyHeart »

I use those guides a lot too, and started keeping my own from games I've played (though I score them out of 5). FWIW, I've cleared about 7 games (inc some of their easier modes), with Darusburst AC Ex being the hardest.

I got a 1cc on Mecha Ritz on my first attempt playing the game. It has a very forgiving rank system that even makes bullets disappear. It's a cool game with some awesome bullet patterns. It seems to have a lot more to offer than simply going for a 1cc, but if that is your goal, I would say it is very easy. Probably the easiest shmup I've played, purely in terms of a 1cc.

Other games I'd highly recommend that I've cleared: Neko Navy (Hard), Blue Revolver (Normal) and Crimzon Clover (Novice).
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WarpedByTheNHK
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by WarpedByTheNHK »

BurlyHeart wrote:I use those guides a lot too, and started keeping my own from games I've played (though I score them out of 5). FWIW, I've cleared about 7 games (inc some of their easier modes), with Darusburst AC Ex being the hardest.

I got a 1cc on Mecha Ritz on my first attempt playing the game. It has a very forgiving rank system that even makes bullets disappear. It's a cool game with some awesome bullet patterns. It seems to have a lot more to offer than simply going for a 1cc, but if that is your goal, I would say it is very easy. Probably the easiest shmup I've played, purely in terms of a 1cc.

Other games I'd highly recommend that I've cleared: Neko Navy (Hard), Blue Revolver (Normal) and Crimzon Clover (Novice).
Are you talking about the original Mecha Ritz, or Mecha Ritz Steel Rondo? I had heard that Steel Rondo was at least a little harder, though maybe that was mostly for hi score achievers who push the rank.

Oh, and I keep a list as well, though it is still pretty short as well. It is based on the same rating scale as the jpn wiki. In other words, nothing I have cleared is very impressive lol.

Gradius- 10
Touhou EOSD Normal- 10? (been too long, but maybe somewhere around here)
Raiden Fighters 2- 10 with Slave, didn't bother with Fairy since it takes the fun out of the bosses.
Deathsmiles- 9? (been a while since I played it)
Cho Ren Sha 68k (sharp) 1-All- 9
Salamander- 9
Touhou PCB Normal- 8? (ditto)
Touhou IN Normal- 8? ("")
Metal Black- 8 using autofire
Gradius III Snes- 7
Axelay Normal- 6
Blazing Lazers- 5
Batsugun Special 1ALL- 5
Soldier Blade 1LC- 5 (1cc is almost the same difficult. Lives barely matter at all IMO)
Gate of Thunder Normal- 4
Thunder force V- 4
Super Aleste Normal- 3
Thunder Force III Normal- 3
Blue Wish Resurrection+ Original Peace- 2
Musha Aleste- 2
Lords of Thunder Normal- 2
Salamander Famicom- 2 (1LC until the last part)
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BurlyHeart
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by BurlyHeart »

Ahi sorry, it was the Steel Rondo version.
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by Zaarock »

WarpedByTheNHK wrote:Thanks to the efforts of this thread and these two threads:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=64428&hilit=difficulty
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=59651
I have a pretty good idea of the difficulty of various games, but I there are still several popular games that I can't help but wonder about, so if anyone has happened to clear these games, please way in on how difficult you think various types of clears are within them: Einhander, Judgment Silversword, Parsec47, Mountain of Faith on hard mode, Mecha Ritz Steel Rondo, Ginga Force, and ZeroRanger 2-ALL.

I know this I am asking for a lot, but this sort of thing really helps me a lot.
I edited my old 1cc list post to have jp wiki style difficulty rating etc a couple weeks ago. JSS and ZeroRanger in there at least.
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by ZPScissors »

I've made my own Touhou version of the list. It has every main series 1cc (excluding some No Bombs but in the end those are challenge runs).

Also there's been some changes to the list since it was last translated. For example, they've reduced Mushi Ultra from 42 to 39.
Same Same Same is still at 24 for some reason.
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by WarpedByTheNHK »

ZPScissors wrote:I've made my own Touhou version of the list. It has every main series 1cc (excluding some No Bombs but in the end those are challenge runs).

Also there's been some changes to the list since it was last translated. For example, they've reduced Mushi Ultra from 42 to 39.
Same Same Same is still at 24 for some reason.
This looks pretty incredible. I am seriously amazed you cleared all these games yourself, wow. It will be a major help for sure.

Thanks for posting your list as well Zarock, though it might be tricky to convert your point system since I have never seen anyone rate Mushi as a 2 lol.
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by bcass »

The placing of Dragon Breed at number 5 is a complete joke. This game is way more difficult than both X-Multiply and R-Type IMO (both of which I have 1-all no-miss runs on). What makes it more difficult than those games is how incredibly vulnerable the player character is. Unlike other Irem games, there are almost never any safe spots in any of the stages so you're on edge for the entire game. In R-Type, for example, you can practically stay in one position for the whole of stages 5 and 8. Enemies and enemy bullets are also much larger than in the other titles. I'm currently going for the 1-all no-miss using the golden dragon, and have had runs ended on the final boss twice, but most runs end at completely random points. I'm not sure where I'd place it on this list (possibly around the 20 mark), but it would be way higher than both of the other games I mentioned.
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by NMS »

bcass wrote:The placing of Dragon Breed at number 5 is a complete joke. This game is way more difficult than both X-Multiply and R-Type IMO (both of which I have 1-all no-miss runs on). What makes it more difficult than those games is how incredibly vulnerable the player character is. Unlike other Irem games, there are almost never any safe spots in any of the stages so you're on edge for the entire game. In R-Type, for example, you can practically stay in one position for the whole of stages 5 and 8. Enemies and enemy bullets are also much larger than in the other titles. I'm currently going for the 1-all no-miss using the golden dragon, and have had runs ended on the final boss twice, but most runs end at completely random points. I'm not sure where I'd place it on this list (possibly around the 20 mark), but it would be way higher than both of the other games I mentioned.
Yeah, haven't played this game in a long time and never went far, but 5 seems way too low unless I'm missing something about the mechanics. As you said, massive hitbox and bullets, no safe spots (and enemies coming from everywhere)...
Unfortunately it's not the only problem with this list. I really want to meet the people who rated Same3 at 24 without autofire, and 14 (!) with auto.

It's rated higher there, and generally that list is much better: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=59651
Sadly it doesn't include more recent games.
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by Angry Hina »

What about Tiger Heli?
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ZPScissors
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by ZPScissors »

Angry Hina wrote:What about Tiger Heli?
I don't remember where exactly Tiger Heli is on the list but I remember thinking they put it a bit too high

(EDIT: I was thinking of the Perikles list, I think he put it at 15 for 1-ALL? My personal rating is 7 though)
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by Sengoku Strider »

They list 1 loop of Kyūkyoku Tiger at 24, tied with Batsugun, Darius II, Same3, Raiden, Blazing Star and a bunch of others in the 'mid to high level' category.
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by ZPScissors »

Sengoku Strider wrote:They list 1 loop of Kyūkyoku Tiger at 24, tied with Batsugun, Darius II, Same3, Raiden, Blazing Star and a bunch of others in the 'mid to high level' category.
24's a perfectly fine rating for KTiger Loop 1, there's just also a decent amount of stuff at that number that... isn't... I think that's a bit high for Darius II and Blazing Star (admittedly I haven't cleared those games, I'm just going off what I've already played from them) and anyone that's actually cleared Sam3 will tell you it should be in the mid-high 30s.

14 with autofire is way too low for KTiger though.
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by Creamy Goodness »

That 2-All of Last Resort at 9 has to be a typo. Even a 1-All that low seems off.
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by Angry Hina »

ZPScissors wrote:
Angry Hina wrote:What about Tiger Heli?
I don't remember where exactly Tiger Heli is on the list but I remember thinking they put it a bit too high

(EDIT: I was thinking of the Perikles list, I think he put it at 15 for 1-ALL? My personal rating is 7 though)
7? In the logic of this list? So on a lower level than Deathsmiles without canyon and Thunder Force AC?
I played it a few minutes together with k.Tiger and they both felt very harsh. But possibly there are just some tricks to make Tiger Heli more manageable.
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by ZPScissors »

Angry Hina wrote:
ZPScissors wrote:
Angry Hina wrote:What about Tiger Heli?
I don't remember where exactly Tiger Heli is on the list but I remember thinking they put it a bit too high

(EDIT: I was thinking of the Perikles list, I think he put it at 15 for 1-ALL? My personal rating is 7 though)
7? In the logic of this list? So on a lower level than Deathsmiles without canyon and Thunder Force AC?
I played it a few minutes together with k.Tiger and they both felt very harsh. But possibly there are just some tricks to make Tiger Heli more manageable.
If I remember correctly I cleared Tiger Heli on my 2nd or 3rd try, fairly short game and recovery is basically not a thing so deaths aren't a massive deal. There are some tricky sections so it's certainly not Batsugun Special or Vimana 1-ALL but I still found it to be pretty easy.

The routes are fairly easy to learn too but I didn't find that to be too important for just a 1-ALL.
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by Angry Hina »

This was also the case for me but it was the NES version on 50 Hz :D
But even if you are more skilled and cleared harder games it should in one way or another apply for me as well. Thanks for your estimation.

Really like the game (at least the nes version) because it has nearly no recovery issue, which is also the case nearly only in Daisenpuu if you look at the Toaplan games, which make it really modern in this topic.
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by wiNteR »

I think it's fairly clear that there are a good number of issues with the list (and there is no doubt about this), with the assumption that the list is about survival clear difficulty. This has come under discussion number of times on this forum now, in the past few years (though, usually in other threads). Even close to the upper part of the list (35+ or so), there seem to be a number of positions that don't seem right to me (based on my personal impressions and understanding).

I won't try to write all the details. However, just for fun, the most bizarre thing that I can see in the list is the casually written:
"+2 for 2-ALL" for Gradius-3.

===========

Nevertheless, despite all the flaws, the "trend" is that games near the top tend to be harder than ones lower down (it is a difficulty list after all). So the list is a good way to find about games that one might not have heard of otherwise (both lower-mid and higher parts of the list).

To give one example, I do find the presence non-bullet hells games at the higher end interesting (though I haven't seen the videos for a lot of them). Nevertheless, since the thread got bumped, I checked Shienryu and found the following video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUAPt38QECQ
The game does look quite hard. Is this game (properly) playable via arcade emulation? If not that, what other platforms it is available on?
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by SPM »

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Last edited by SPM on Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by NuclearPotato »

Creamy Goodness wrote:That 2-All of Last Resort at 9 has to be a typo. Even a 1-All that low seems off.
Having just gotten the 1-ALL on Last Resort, I'd say a 9 is a pretty reasonable score for the first loop. It's definitely got a lot of points that will kick your ass if you're not careful, but the rank down and generous powerup replacement on checkpoints makes recovery very doable (outside of the final checkpoint on Stage 5, perhaps, but even then it can be done). I'm still learning loop 2, but a 12 ala Perikles list still seems reasonable; the faster enemies definitely makes things harder, but not to the scale of say, R-Type's 2nd loop (again, the generous checkpoints help a lot here).
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by To Far Away Times »

I played a bit of Last Resort a while back. Got up to stage 4. Definitely noticed the generous checkpoints and powerups, which I thought was pretty nice.

I tried to play it like R-Type and block the bullets with the pod, but that doesn't seem quite right. I also tried to play it like R-Type Leo and launch the pod aggressively, and that didn't seem quite right either. I'm not sure how that game is supposed to be played, honestly.
Last edited by To Far Away Times on Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by NuclearPotato »

I'd say it's a little closer to Leo with how you use the pod, but not nearly as aggressive as Leo can get with usage. The basic shot on the unit does deceptively high damage, so there are definitely times you'll want to just keep the pod in a fixed position to shoot things with over firing the charge shot relentlessly. There are definitely parts where the charge shot is used aggressively though, like dealing with the turret corridor on Stage 2, or on the outside of the battleship in Stage 5.
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by Sengoku Strider »

I just realized I derped out and posted Kyūkyoku Tiger's ranking when the ask was originally about Tiger Heli. Is it just me, or is it not ranked?
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by SPM »

NuclearPotato wrote:There are definitely parts where the charge shot is used aggressively though, like dealing with the turret corridor on Stage 2
I used to play that way, launching the red charge shot diagonally to get rid of the turrets, and it's fun to do so, BUT I played it again recently and found that section much easier with the G-bombs, using your pod to block bullets: https://youtu.be/pwsioof8dRU?t=266
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by Steven »

Sengoku Strider wrote:I just realized I derped out and posted Kyūkyoku Tiger's ranking when the ask was originally about Tiger Heli. Is it just me, or is it not ranked?
It's at 15 on the Perikles list.
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Re: Japanese STG Difficulty Wiki

Post by jehu »

Steven wrote:
Sengoku Strider wrote:I just realized I derped out and posted Kyūkyoku Tiger's ranking when the ask was originally about Tiger Heli. Is it just me, or is it not ranked?
It's at 15 on the Perikles list.
I wasn’t doing much lurking when all the Perikles drama went down. Are his resources generally reliable?
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