DVDO iScan VP30 (should I update its firmware)

[gar3]

Hi all,

About four years ago I purchased a used DVDO iScan VP30 which arrived with v1.06 firmware. After a "learning experience," I was able to finally update the firmware to V.1.14. I use the VP30 almost exclusively for film viewing. I own an XRGB-2+ and a FrameMeister for gaming. Recently, I was able to secure an additional VP30 machine along with a remote (finally) as well as SD-SDI and ABT-102 daughter cards (yes!). I removed the previous VP30 from my set-up and put the newly acquired one in and all is fine and dandy, except for the firmware on the "new" machine is v1.07.

I would like to know the board's opinion on whether I should update this VP30 to v.1.14 or leave it at v1.07. Again, keep in mind I normally use the machine for movies:
Sony 720p RP-LCD (KDF-E50A10)
-D VHS (480i component)
-HD DVD (1080i HDMI)
-Blu-ray (1080i HDMI)

I realize this is more of a videogame-oriented board but figured there must be some folks here who still use an iScan machine for occasional film viewing the same as I use it occasionally for game playing. Any thoughts would be appreciated whether they relate to movies or games in regards to firmware versions. And, yes, I could easily remove both daughter cards and put them in the other VP30 which is already on v.1.14 but the first HDMI-out port doesn't work on that machine :-/

[Galgomite]

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=60076

Above was a related discussion. Seems like the default opinion is to update.

[Fudoh]

If you're really interested in what changed between the FW revisions, try the VP30/ABT102 thread on the AVS board. Should still all be there for you to read up on.

I didn't have a VP30 when it was new. My first DVDO bought upon release was the VP50, but in general I can't think of anything that would (or should) prevent you from updating. On FWs after the ABT102 releases mainly addressed deinterlacing quirks or cadence detection issues.

Fun fact though: Even the ABT102 only had very (VERY) basic 1080i support, so while you technically get 1080p output from a 1080i input, you don't get proper deinterlacing with it. The ABT102 upgraded the SD deinterlacing from the SI504's basic function to ABT's own solution (which remains great even today), but only the VP50 introduced the same algorithms for HD content.

[NoAffinity]

Why wouldnt you just remove the cards from the 1.07 vp30 and put them in the updated one?

:edit: sorry i stopped reading the first post too soon. Good luck with finding a solution. I dont use my vp30 much but keep it around cuz its still fun to play with from time to time. Was lucky enough to get an abt-102 a couple months back as well. That really completed it.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[gar3]

Thank you everyone for your thoughts. And, Fudoh, I've read and re-read the AVS topic numerous times since getting the first VP30 (thank goodness you showed up near the end over there, heh) but there was always such a disconnect between people who swore to God about 1080i output being horrible compared to 720p or that whatever the latest firmware was broke the machine and you should stay on "x" firmware. Always such spirited debate that can get mighty confusing. I figured I had nothing to lose with my first VP30 so going from v1.06 to v1.14 was a no-brainer.

I can say without a doubt though that I noticed one thing (and only one thing) tonight going back and forth between both machines with a bunch of discs that I like to use to gauge things by. Using the same tv, the same player, the same discs, the same cables, but different VP30 machines with different firmware versions, I can state that I noticed something during the viewing of the original R1 DVD release of "Ghoulies." I like using Ghoulies due to the "bleeding red" of its title screen/opening credits as the movie plays. Normally I would output 480p from my Panasonic Blu-ray player to the VP30, but I did that tonight with the v1.07 VP30 and it didn't look as good as in the past. Switching back to the v1.14 VP30 it looked great like it normally does. I switched back to the v1.07 VP30 and changed the output on Blu-ray player from 480p to 1080i and the credits looked better. Switching back to the v1.14 and doing the same though it didn't look as good as outputting 480p from it. That paragraph might be kind of confusing to follow so to summarize:
-VP30 v1.07 "Ghoulies" DVD playback 480p good/1080i better
-VP30 v1.14 "Ghoulies" DVD playback 480p better/1080i good

Again, no change in equipment or cables outside of swapping VP30 machines (and, yes, both VP30 machines had the same internal settings, too). But that was the only difference I noticed in everything I tested including more DVDs. All my normal Blu-ray, HD DVD, DVD, and SVHS I like to test with looked 100% similar to my eyes. I don't normally even view DVDs from my Panasonic Blu-ray player (I normally use my Toshiba HD-XA1 for that) so I don't think I'll let that factor into any decision I make.

I plan to e-mail the very nice gentleman who sold me this second VP30 complete with all the daughter cards and ask him why he chose to keep the machine at v1.07. He'll probably say "wasn't broke so no need to fix" but I think I want to hear it from him now, especially after seeing the differences in "Ghoulies."


EDIT - Received an e-mail reply back from the seller. He said he was helping the widow of a guy who did IMAX theater installs to downsize her remaining possessions inside their house. Said the gentleman died "a number of years ago" and maybe that's why the firmware was never updated past v1.07. Hmm. At the moment, I think I'll just enjoy v1.07 and begin to once again re-read the AVS topic right after that particular firmware dropped. Thanks again to everyone here for all the help and information!

[Fudoh]

people who swore to God about 1080i output being horrible compared to 720p or that whatever the latest firmware was broke the machine and you should stay on "x" firmware.

that's very well possible, but then again, is 1080i OUTPUT important to you? 1080i output might have been bugged, since it's not as trivial as it sounds. The internal processing path is progressive, so 1080i requires an interlacing step at the end, which - for film material - requires an exact cadence, so any internal processor on the display's end is able to properly work with it.

Using the same tv, the same player, the same discs, the same cables, but different VP30 machines with different firmware versions, I can state that I noticed something during the viewing of the original R1 DVD release of "Ghoulies."

Neither 480p nor 1080i from your BD player are an ideal setup. Did you check if you had PREP configured the same way on both iScan units? PREP (reinterlacing of progressive sources) can save some signals, but usually the post processing in the source has already done too much damage. On a VP30 unit not equipped with a ABT102 card, I might argue in favor of 480p output from a BD player, but for a ABT102 equipped unit you NEED the native 480i source signal.

[gar3]

This is what and how I'm currently using the ABT-102 equipped v1.07 VP30 for:

VHS/S-VHS (JVC HM-DT100u) 480i Component -> DVDO iScan VP30 720p HDMI -> RP-LCD 720p HDTV (Sony KDF-E50A10)
DVD (Pioneer DV-48AV) 480i HDMI -> DVDO iScan VP30 720p HDMI -> RP-LCD 720p HDTV (Sony KDF-E50A10)
HD DVD (Toshiba HD-XA1) 1080i HDMI -> DVDO iScan VP30 720p HDMI -> RP-LCD 720p HDTV (Sony KDF-E50A10)
Blu-ray (Panasonic DMP-BD80) 1080i HDMI -> DVDO iScan VP30 720p HDMI -> RP-LCD 720p HDTV (Sony KDF-E50A10)

I only mentioned the 480p/1080i differences between the two different firmware VP30s because it shocked me that the earlier firmware version didn't handle 480p output from the Blu-ray player as well as the latest firmware version did. Again, I normally do not view DVD from the Blu-ray player, it was just something I noticed during random tests so I examined it more closely and made a post about it.

[Fudoh]

Did you ever run any test patterns on the BD player using its 1080i output ? If you output 1080i to the DVDO, you're resolution effectively drops down to 540p which you then upscale to 720p. Setting the player directly to 720p60 output, which gets scaled from the original 1080p24 source should give you better results.

[gar3]

I've gone back and forth over the years between 720p and 1080i output from the HD DVD and Blu-ray players. When I first got a Toshiba HD-D1 back in September 2006, I had the player port-out 720p directly to the Sony RP-LCD. Shortly thereafter I noticed issues with letting the player handle the conversion and I switched to 1080i directly to the Sony RP-LCD and let the TV itself do the conversion. Since getting the first VP30, I've gone back and forth between having it take both 720p and 1080i from the two high def players. I usually change both machines for about eight months at a time and then switch back. To be perfectly honest, I have difficulties telling the difference and could go either way.

My understanding was that at the end of the day you should always use the original native resolution of whatever it is that you are viewing, media-wise. So since both HD DVD and Blu-ray are 1080p, I always thought that was the more "correct" route. Obviously, my older Sony RP-LCD cannot accept 1080p at all, only 1080i. I understand the progressive/interlaced/progressive dealio, but there has always been discussions as to how much information is actually being lost. This is just one example of many over on the AVS topic over the years:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video ... ost7467258
[comments continue above and below Josh Zyber's post]

I also understand that Toshiba "fixed" its first-generation HD DVD players with firmware 2.0 in regards to 720p output and I've never noticed any issues since whenever I let my players do the conversion but I would think 1080 in any form from the players to a more capable device like the VP30 would be the way to go. But, like I've said, I've gone back and forth and really cannot notice any difference and if truth were told seem to prefer 1080i if I was forced to choose. I'm 1000% open to being told differently, though. You know much more than most, Fudoh. I have Digital Video Essentials on both DVD and HD DVD if there is a particular test pattern you suggest or perhaps one on the VP30 itself.

[Fudoh]

Now if it only wasn't like 10 years since I last used DVE

You have to see it this way: if you play back a movie in 1080i then the full frames are broken into fields and the VP30 doesn't have the neccessary buffer to re-create the full frames from adjacent fields. Since the horizontal resolution is fully intact and 540 lines aren't too shabby to start with, you still get a nice image, but there are situations where this method will fail, especially when you're looking at diagonal edges with low angles (against the horizontal) or high detail scenes (like roof tops or stone brick walls).

As long as you're happy, don't bother. Since your beamer is 720p only and likely doesn't care about movie candences, it's alright.

[strayan]

I’ve been using a VP30 without upgrade card to downscale 1080i (forced with Swiss using official gamecube component cables) to 480p and it looks great. No complaints about deinterlacing.

[gar3]

Fudoh, thanks for taking the time to post and respond to my inane questions. If I could bug you for some additional thoughts:

-Since the information on HD DVD and Blu-ray is 1920x1080, why would it be better for the player to scale that to 1280x720 versus having a dedicated machine like the VP30? Is it truly down to eliminating the need to deinterlace altogether? Or is this a specific case to the VP30 and its inherent limitations? Is it a combination of things?

-Would you in most cases personally default to a competent player to perform this function versus a dedicated scaler machine or is this because in my situation the VP30 has limitations?

-Since 2005 when I bought my rear projection unit there has been one thing about it that has always had me asking questions. Way earlier units actually featured internal LCDs that were 1280x768 before true 1280x720 ones took over. I am confident my unit is 1280x720; however, any time I allow "auto detect" from any device it always defaults to 1080i. I understand EDID isn't something to dwell on and are sometimes totally incorrect but honestly every single device I allow will always choose 1080i output over my supposed native 720p and I have never seen it otherwise. Why in the world would this be? Why would Sony code the TV to prefer a 1080 interlaced signal over a native 720 progressive one? Is it truly due to earlier units being 1280x768? Is it due to this rear projection unit probably featuring EDID technology versus E-EDID? I always suspected it was due to the earlier 768 internal panels but this is a thing that has been bugging me now for about 15 years, heh.

[Fudoh]

@strayan: your target resolution is 480p though (less than the 540 lines you get from a single 1080i field), so you're golden anyway.

-Since the information on HD DVD and Blu-ray is 1920x1080, why would it be better for the player to scale that to 1280x720 versus having a dedicated machine like the VP30? Is it truly down to eliminating the need to deinterlace altogether? Or is this a specific case to the VP30 and its inherent limitations? Is it a combination of things?

The information on BD is 1080p (progressive frames with 1080 lines each), but the signal of your choice is 1080i, which only uses 540 lines at a time. Newer processors will recreate the full 1080 lines from combining adjacent fields, so you internally end up with the full 1080p frame again, which can then be downscaled to - let's say - 720p. The VP30 is a SD processor with only rudimentary support for 1080i signals, so it doesn't recreate the full 1080p frame, but instead just upscales each field on each own.

Have a look at the game mode 1 option. If you enable this the VP30 does the same with 480i signals. Instead of using multiple fields, it only uses a single field, upscales and interpolates it. And I think we can agree that the quality difference between game mode 1 and standard video deinterlacing is MASSIVE. The same applies to 1080i deinterlacing, where the VP30 is basically stuck in "game mode 1" all the time.

-Would you in most cases personally default to a competent player to perform this function versus a dedicated scaler machine or is this because in my situation the VP30 has limitations?

that depends on your whole setup. With HD-capable processor the conversion between 1080i and 1080p is losless, but then again if BD/HDDVD is your only 1080i source, you could stick the VP30 and just change the setup for your BD player. I really don't know there were any BD players with really bad 720p output, but if you get a $80 BD player these days, then the 720p output should be pretty good.

your beamer question

768p panels were common back then, since most devices came from PC-oriented industries and 768p per se has better XGA compatibiliy (in terms of readability).

1080i was the prefered format since it's the "original" HDTV format. 1080i is also much easier on the bandwith (since it's basically just a 540p signal). Also everbody except the japanese prefer 1080(x) over a 720(x) signal. Sounds better, higher resolution and stuff. And who really knows about i/p. The japanese got it right in their D-Terminal specs (D1 = 480i, D2 = 480p, D3 = 1080i, D4 = 720p...). If you put 720p up front on the EDID, you might run into device combinations that will default back to SD, if they're only capable of 480i/p and 1080i. Not all devices read all the EDID data.

If you want to check if your device if 720p or 768p, you just need to bring up the horizontal line test pattern of the VP30. Shiy way you can easily check if you're getting a vertical 1:1 mapping of the processor's output to your projector.

[NoAffinity]

Chiming in a little off the main topic here, but on the heels of mention about the test patterns. As mentioned earlier in this thread, I dont do a lot with my vp30 these days, but just yesterday used it in 480p output mode, to a modified gbs-8200 (see other thread here on shmups about the long-standing and ongoing gbs-control project), downscaled the 480p output to 240p, and used the vp30 test patterns to fine tune my sony trinitron (240p/480i only model). What a great time of tech we live in!

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[gar3]

Fudoh, thanks again for all your insight. You always give me plenty to think about. If you could indulge me one last time with two more questions:


-According to many sources back in the day, my Sony RP-LCD does indeed properly deinterlace and process 1080i signals. This is just one of many examples of confirmation:
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/ ... u-expected

With that in mind, if I were to run 1080i from both the HD DVD and Blu-ray players to the VP30 to then port out 1080i from it to the Sony RP-LCD, in theory the VP30 should not be doing anything to the signal outside of passing it through (with the exception of a tick of brightness, sharpness, and underscan applied as per my only VP30 settings). Am I correct in thinking this? If so, in theory, wouldn't this be the "the best" way of viewing those media on my particular set-up:
HD DVD (Toshiba HD-XA1) 1080i HDMI -> DVDO iScan VP30 1080i HDMI -> RP-LCD 720p HDTV (Sony KDF-E50A10)
Blu-ray (Panasonic DMP-BD80) 1080i HDMI -> DVDO iScan VP30 1080i HDMI -> RP-LCD 720p HDTV (Sony KDF-E50A10)


-In regards to my D-VHS player:
VHS/S-VHS (JVC HM-DT100u) 480i Component -> DVDO iScan VP30 720p HDMI -> RP-LCD 720p HDTV (Sony KDF-E50A10)

The 100u features HDMI-out (480i/480p and 720p/1080i depending on the media). In the past I utilized the HDMI-out for VHS and S-VHS viewing but got tired of the extreme finicky nature of its HDMI 1.0 port. I switched over to component and it has been pretty smooth sailing. Am I correct in my current thinking that since the vast majority of media I use is S-VHS which is analog in nature and features 420 vertical lines, that 480i component out to the VP30 and then 720p to the Sony RP-LCD is still "the best" way to go for the device? Or, since I now have an ABT-102 equipped VP30, should I reexamine 480i HDMI out to the VP30?

[Fudoh]

-According to many sources back in the day, my Sony RP-LCD does indeed properly deinterlace and process 1080i signals.

that's very well possible.

With that in mind, if I were to run 1080i from both the HD DVD and Blu-ray players to the VP30 to then port out 1080i from it to the Sony RP-LCD, in theory the VP30 should not be doing anything to the signal outside of passing it through (with the exception of a tick of brightness, sharpness, and underscan applied as per my only VP30 settings).

unfortunately not, you'd still get deinterlacing (in form of single field upscaling) into an internal 1080p state and a reinterlacing to 1080i after that. Instead you can set the HDMI ports to passthrough though and only then you'll get the unaltered, original 1080i signal. Of course you lose all other processing as well then.

I still think though that 720p from your BD player should be a more reliable format that 1080i. After all your RP TV set isn't the newest either.

For analogue tapes, 480i component is fine of course. The difference between a GOOD 480i component output and 480i SDI or HDMI is minimal, especially for sub-par sources like S-VHS.

[gar3]

Again, thank you Fudoh and thanks to everyone who allowed me to pick their brains over these dozen or so questions.