Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming 2020
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DirkSwizzler
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Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
Got my unit today. Quality is fine.
Finally was able to answer my own question about output sync without an input. And it does
And the default input is composite. So it's nearly as fiddly as the retrotink 2x. But doesn't need extra equipment to go back to analog.
Still waiting for a quality transcoder that I can default to svideo input and doesn't output sync if there's no input sync.
Finally was able to answer my own question about output sync without an input. And it does
And the default input is composite. So it's nearly as fiddly as the retrotink 2x. But doesn't need extra equipment to go back to analog.
Still waiting for a quality transcoder that I can default to svideo input and doesn't output sync if there's no input sync.
Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
The firmware can be updated, and the behavior you desire can easily be implemented. If you're willing to give it a try, please send me a message. All that is required is a suitable programmer.DirkSwizzler wrote:Got my unit today. Quality is fine.
Finally was able to answer my own question about output sync without an input. And it does
And the default input is composite. So it's nearly as fiddly as the retrotink 2x. But doesn't need extra equipment to go back to analog.
Still waiting for a quality transcoder that I can default to svideo input and doesn't output sync if there's no input sync.
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DirkSwizzler
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Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
megari wrote:The firmware can be updated, and the behavior you desire can easily be implemented. If you're willing to give it a try, please send me a message. All that is required is a suitable programmer.DirkSwizzler wrote:Got my unit today. Quality is fine.
Finally was able to answer my own question about output sync without an input. And it does
And the default input is composite. So it's nearly as fiddly as the retrotink 2x. But doesn't need extra equipment to go back to analog.
Still waiting for a quality transcoder that I can default to svideo input and doesn't output sync if there's no input sync.
Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
Can it output RGsB?
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kitty666cats
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Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
It should, every CVBS/S-Vid to YPbPr I've ever seen lets you do that (or, at least the transcoders with no scaling)Lawfer wrote:Can it output RGsB?
Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
Technically, yes. This requires a small modification to the firmware, though. For instance, the Option button could be repurposed to switch between YPbPr and RGsB.Lawfer wrote:Can it output RGsB?
The firmware is modifiable and can be updated quite easily with an AVR ISP programmer. The required information will be provided soon, but requires some time (which I have very little of nowadays) to prepare. Please be patient and stay tuned.
Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
I'm also looking for this option, I have a similar setup to Dirk. Can you keep us updated in the thread instead of pm?megari wrote:The firmware can be updated, and the behavior you desire can easily be implemented. If you're willing to give it a try, please send me a message. All that is required is a suitable programmer.DirkSwizzler wrote:Got my unit today. Quality is fine.
Finally was able to answer my own question about output sync without an input. And it does
And the default input is composite. So it's nearly as fiddly as the retrotink 2x. But doesn't need extra equipment to go back to analog.
Still waiting for a quality transcoder that I can default to svideo input and doesn't output sync if there's no input sync.
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- Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:04 am
Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
The ADV7280A + ADV7391 combo is somewhat less interesting as some of us thought the box was truly analog and built around a legacy analog video processor IC, e.g. TDA8376, that somebody found a big NOS stash of in like Russia or something. Going through the ADC->DAC cycle on a modern ADC front-end with fixed line sample rate is a bit less exciting. Given the ADV7280A, in some ways it's like a RetroTINK-2X in pass-through mode with analog outputs instead of HDMI.megari wrote:Heh, let me save you some trouble - it's not a secret that the device uses ubiquitous off-the-shelf parts.energizerfellow wrote:So anybody take an inventory of the ICs on this thing yet? A high-res camera pic or flatbed scanner scan of board would be nice.
The video processing is performed by two ICs: the ADV7280A (ADC) and the ADV7391 (DAC). The rest is just to support these two.
I'm on my mobile at the moment, so I'll just end this post by saying that the firmware source code and sufficient technical documentation for further development by community members will be provided soon(tm).
Speaking of the ADV7xxx family of chips, I'd love to see somebody use something like the ADV7842 with working 10/12-bit deep color, configurable upper + lower IRE levels, native YUV color space processing, HDMI/SDI output, and enough SDRAM installed to enable both the full-frame TBC and 3D comb filter (2D comb and line TBC w/o external SDRAM). The non-gaming video guys (read: VHS, 8mm, LaserDisc, etc) have been begging for such a box for many years and have been resorting to buying increasingly rare and expensive legacy DVD recorders and external TBC boxes just for their pass-through full-frame TBC and 3D comb filter functionality. The VideoHelp forum would collectively cream their pants over such a box.
Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
FWIW, virtually all decent quality late model CRTs perform color decoding in the digital domain, and is hence, functionally and qualitatively identically to the ADV7280 + DAC. Any digital based solution is going to blow away a crappy NOS decoder, which at most, is using some notch filter.
Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
But I guess using an A/D conversion with fixed sample rate on the Koryuu means that the optimal timings on the OSSC for horizontal sampling can't be used right? Just the generic modes. Probably no big deal for composite, but it might hurt the possibilites for achieving the best s-video picture, wouldn't it ?
@orange808: did you try to dial in the OSSC's horizontal sampling for your N64 connected through s-video?
@orange808: did you try to dial in the OSSC's horizontal sampling for your N64 connected through s-video?
Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
I tried optimal sampling last night with a couple systems and it didn't do much.Fudoh wrote:But I guess using an A/D conversion with fixed sample rate on the Koryuu means that the optimal timings on the OSSC for horizontal sampling can't be used right? Just the generic modes. Probably no big deal for composite, but it might hurt the possibilites for achieving the best s-video picture, wouldn't it ?
@orange808: did you try to dial in the OSSC's horizontal sampling for your N64 connected through s-video?
I tried it with NES (composite) and SNES (svideo and composite). The 512x240 setting looked the clearest of the custom options, but generic looked best.
Frankly, I welcome a little blurriness on the N64, so I didn't bother testing any optimal timings.
I'll post some screengrabs and some follow up next week with the Dreamcast.
I usually use the generic sampling, so my first impressions were based on that (and plugging/unplugging a stack of machines on the floor). I was initially most concerned with how the comb filter stacked up to my other "zero lag" options.
Last edited by orange808 on Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We apologise for the inconvenience
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maxtherabbit
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Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
Right. That's the difference between transcoding color in digital and then shooting it out to a CRT vs then sending it to a scaler to be sampled digitally againFudoh wrote:But I guess using an A/D conversion with fixed sample rate on the Koryuu means that the optimal timings on the OSSC for horizontal sampling can't be used right? Just the generic modes.
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Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
If the Koryuu is capable of adjusting its sampling parameters in the firmware, it might be possible to link it up with the OSSC Pro via the extension port (or to the original via serial via JTAG) so that it can be semi-remote-controlled.maxtherabbit wrote:Right. That's the difference between transcoding color in digital and then shooting it out to a CRT vs then sending it to a scaler to be sampled digitally againFudoh wrote:But I guess using an A/D conversion with fixed sample rate on the Koryuu means that the optimal timings on the OSSC for horizontal sampling can't be used right? Just the generic modes.
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DirkSwizzler
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Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
I'd also be interested in RGsB output (by default) whenever there's time to make that happen.megari wrote:Technically, yes. This requires a small modification to the firmware, though. For instance, the Option button could be repurposed to switch between YPbPr and RGsB.Lawfer wrote:Can it output RGsB?
The firmware is modifiable and can be updated quite easily with an AVR ISP programmer. The required information will be provided soon, but requires some time (which I have very little of nowadays) to prepare. Please be patient and stay tuned.
Less than ideal for sure.maxtherabbit wrote:Right. That's the difference between transcoding color in digital and then shooting it out to a CRT vs then sending it to a scaler to be sampled digitally againFudoh wrote:But I guess using an A/D conversion with fixed sample rate on the Koryuu means that the optimal timings on the OSSC for horizontal sampling can't be used right? Just the generic modes.
Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
The OSSC Pro would be best with it's own daughter board to handle this task.
In theory, the OSSC Pro could also implement it's own comb filter processing, mosquito noise reduction, and deinterlacing. All of that could be performed on a single machine that shares a unified frame buffer, so it would be more efficient than my current chain of machines. The OSSC Pro could also automatically add the proper audio delay--with no guesswork.
I agree with Fudoh that the sampling could upset some users with svideo.
About laserdisks:
The composite comb filter in the Koryuu is already an absolute deal breaker for home theatre use. It's not good for that, so the sampling options wouldn't do much for LD fans. If we ignore latency (something I would never do), the Koryuu comb filter isn't good.
In theory, the OSSC Pro could also implement it's own comb filter processing, mosquito noise reduction, and deinterlacing. All of that could be performed on a single machine that shares a unified frame buffer, so it would be more efficient than my current chain of machines. The OSSC Pro could also automatically add the proper audio delay--with no guesswork.
I agree with Fudoh that the sampling could upset some users with svideo.
About laserdisks:
The composite comb filter in the Koryuu is already an absolute deal breaker for home theatre use. It's not good for that, so the sampling options wouldn't do much for LD fans. If we ignore latency (something I would never do), the Koryuu comb filter isn't good.
We apologise for the inconvenience
Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
For S-video, I think ideal would be direct sampling of Y and C and perform the IQ coherent demodulation on the FPGA. In theory this can be done on the current OSSC if the FPGA is fast enough and the video ADC is capable of digitizing the colorburst.Fudoh wrote:But I guess using an A/D conversion with fixed sample rate on the Koryuu means that the optimal timings on the OSSC for horizontal sampling can't be used right? Just the generic modes. Probably no big deal for composite, but it might hurt the possibilites for achieving the best s-video picture, wouldn't it ?
@orange808: did you try to dial in the OSSC's horizontal sampling for your N64 connected through s-video?
Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
Yes, using the ADI chips was a painful (while practical) compromise. Not having much control over sampling is one of the biggest pain points for myself, but there seem to be no solutions that are anywhere near perfect when considering all the features the OSSC has that one would hope to have in this sort of transcoder as well. Discussions with marqs only made this more evident, as he had done quite a bit of research on purely analog transcoding solutions. The small number of ICs that would have been the most suitable were effectively all EoL, and there was no guarantee of being able to source sufficient amounts from used video equipment to build any significant number of the resulting device.energizerfellow wrote:The ADV7280A + ADV7391 combo is somewhat less interesting as some of us thought the box was truly analog and built around a legacy analog video processor IC, e.g. TDA8376, that somebody found a big NOS stash of in like Russia or something. Going through the ADC->DAC cycle on a modern ADC front-end with fixed line sample rate is a bit less exciting. Given the ADV7280A, in some ways it's like a RetroTINK-2X in pass-through mode with analog outputs instead of HDMI.megari wrote:Heh, let me save you some trouble - it's not a secret that the device uses ubiquitous off-the-shelf parts.energizerfellow wrote:So anybody take an inventory of the ICs on this thing yet? A high-res camera pic or flatbed scanner scan of board would be nice.
The video processing is performed by two ICs: the ADV7280A (ADC) and the ADV7391 (DAC). The rest is just to support these two.
I'm on my mobile at the moment, so I'll just end this post by saying that the firmware source code and sufficient technical documentation for further development by community members will be provided soon(tm).
Speaking of the ADV7xxx family of chips, I'd love to see somebody use something like the ADV7842 with working 10/12-bit deep color, configurable upper + lower IRE levels, native YUV color space processing, HDMI/SDI output, and enough SDRAM installed to enable both the full-frame TBC and 3D comb filter (2D comb and line TBC w/o external SDRAM). The non-gaming video guys (read: VHS, 8mm, LaserDisc, etc) have been begging for such a box for many years and have been resorting to buying increasingly rare and expensive legacy DVD recorders and external TBC boxes just for their pass-through full-frame TBC and 3D comb filter functionality. The VideoHelp forum would collectively cream their pants over such a box.
The story of the Koryuu started when I wanted to get a proper picture out of a C64 with OSSC, so I decided to make do with what was available (and learn a lot while doing it), and the result turned out to be surprisingly good despite the severe lack of configurability in aspects many retro game/computer enthusiasts would prefer to be able to control for an optimal picture. I hope this little project ends up being a net positive for the community despite its limitations.
Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
Sure. I'll try to give you all an update during the weekend (unless the flu overwhelms me).ldeveraux wrote:I'm also looking for this option, I have a similar setup to Dirk. Can you keep us updated in the thread instead of pm?megari wrote:The firmware can be updated, and the behavior you desire can easily be implemented. If you're willing to give it a try, please send me a message. All that is required is a suitable programmer.DirkSwizzler wrote:Got my unit today. Quality is fine.
Finally was able to answer my own question about output sync without an input. And it does
And the default input is composite. So it's nearly as fiddly as the retrotink 2x. But doesn't need extra equipment to go back to analog.
Still waiting for a quality transcoder that I can default to svideo input and doesn't output sync if there's no input sync.
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Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
I kind of figured that was the case any why I was curious what ICs were being used. Regardless, it's a product that needs to be on the market and happy you helped make it happen.megari wrote:Yes, using the ADI chips was a painful (while practical) compromise. Not having much control over sampling is one of the biggest pain points for myself, but there seem to be no solutions that are anywhere near perfect when considering all the features the OSSC has that one would hope to have in this sort of transcoder as well. Discussions with marqs only made this more evident, as he had done quite a bit of research on purely analog transcoding solutions. The small number of ICs that would have been the most suitable were effectively all EoL, and there was no guarantee of being able to source sufficient amounts from used video equipment to build any significant number of the resulting device.
The story of the Koryuu started when I wanted to get a proper picture out of a C64 with OSSC, so I decided to make do with what was available (and learn a lot while doing it), and the result turned out to be surprisingly good despite the severe lack of configurability in aspects many retro game/computer enthusiasts would prefer to be able to control for an optimal picture. I hope this little project ends up being a net positive for the community despite its limitations.
At the end of the day, I think you're right on this one. Assuming the FPGA is fast enough, would it be worth looking outside the world of video processing analog front-ends and into more generic ADCs meant for things like MRI machines, then doing all the heavy lifting on the FPGA?mikechi2 wrote:For S-video, I think ideal would be direct sampling of Y and C and perform the IQ coherent demodulation on the FPGA. In theory this can be done on the current OSSC if the FPGA is fast enough and the video ADC is capable of digitizing the colorburst.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
Interesting ideamikechi2 wrote:
For S-video, I think ideal would be direct sampling of Y and C and perform the IQ coherent demodulation on the FPGA. In theory this can be done on the current OSSC if the FPGA is fast enough and the video ADC is capable of digitizing the colorburst.
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DirkSwizzler
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Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
I assumed it wasn't possible. But now I'm less sure. So I have to ask.
As an extension of disconnecting output when there's no input. Would it be possible to create an automatic input selection mode?
If there's no input active for the selected port. Then switch to the other input after a half second or so. Rinse and repeat. It should bounce back and forth until one produces a signal. And since output is disabled until a signal is found. There's no need to have any consistent output rate.
As an extension of disconnecting output when there's no input. Would it be possible to create an automatic input selection mode?
If there's no input active for the selected port. Then switch to the other input after a half second or so. Rinse and repeat. It should bounce back and forth until one produces a signal. And since output is disabled until a signal is found. There's no need to have any consistent output rate.
Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
I second this too! The quest for the ultimate device continues!DirkSwizzler wrote:I assumed it wasn't possible. But now I'm less sure. So I have to ask.
As an extension of disconnecting output when there's no input. Would it be possible to create an automatic input selection mode?
If there's no input active for the selected port. Then switch to the other input after a half second or so. Rinse and repeat. It should bounce back and forth until one produces a signal. And since output is disabled until a signal is found. There's no need to have any consistent output rate.
Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
Well, I give up. I can't seem to get clean captures of svideo or composite in this room. (I think) I know why and there's nothing else I can do about it right now.
Sorry bout that.
Want to see photos of Koryuu anyhow? They are here :
http://www.mediafire.com/file/85c80znvx ... u.rar/file
(Beware the noise pattern from this room. Thar be dragons there.)
Sorry bout that.
Want to see photos of Koryuu anyhow? They are here :
http://www.mediafire.com/file/85c80znvx ... u.rar/file
(Beware the noise pattern from this room. Thar be dragons there.)
We apologise for the inconvenience
Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
And overwhelm me it did. Been sick since. Sorry.megari wrote:Sure. I'll try to give you all an update during the weekend (unless the flu overwhelms me).ldeveraux wrote:I'm also looking for this option, I have a similar setup to Dirk. Can you keep us updated in the thread instead of pm?megari wrote:
The firmware can be updated, and the behavior you desire can easily be implemented. If you're willing to give it a try, please send me a message. All that is required is a suitable programmer.
Will try to get stuff done now that I'm getting a bit better.
Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
There's no rush at all, the Koryuu works well in the immediate. Having it not provide output when there's no input is a long term request.megari wrote:And overwhelm me it did. Been sick since. Sorry.
Will try to get stuff done now that I'm getting a bit better.
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DirkSwizzler
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Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
+1ldeveraux wrote:There's no rush at all, the Koryuu works well in the immediate. Having it not provide output when there's no input is a long term request.megari wrote:And overwhelm me it did. Been sick since. Sorry.
Will try to get stuff done now that I'm getting a bit better.
There's no rush. I'm just glad you're listening to requests at all. So many products are set in stone just shy of greatness.
Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
Hi everyone!
I finally got around implementing something a few people asked for:
You can use a suitable AVR ISP programmer and avrdude to update the firmware, like so:
(The parameters your_port and your_programmer_type depend on your setup and programmer.)
Sorry for the terse instructions. I intend to create better ones soon.
As for some other things people have asked for:
I finally got around implementing something a few people asked for:
- S-Video input (with pedestal) as default
- When there is no sync on the current input, the Koryuu outputs no signal.
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Code: Select all
avrdude -p atmega328p -P your_port -c your_programmer_type -U flash:w:firmware.hex
Sorry for the terse instructions. I intend to create better ones soon.
As for some other things people have asked for:
- Remembering the input last used before power-off: doable, easy, some thinking to avoid needless nonvolatile memory wear, a little bit of work to implement
- Any other settings you might be interested in saving?
- Auto-selecting input by polling both inputs: doable, not difficult, may require some code reorganization for maintainability purposes.
Last edited by megari on Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DirkSwizzler
- Posts: 548
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Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
Excellent!megari wrote: I finally got around implementing something a few people asked for:
- S-Video input (with pedestal) as default
- When there is no sync on the current input, the Koryuu outputs no signal.
I would assume that auto-polling inputs would satisfy a significant portion of people wanting the device to remember the last input. At which point you might only need to remember the pedestal setting. Which I assume people wouldn't toggle much. And would altogether reduce nonvolatile memory wear?megari wrote: As for some other things people have asked for:
- Remembering the input last used before power-off: doable, easy, some thinking to avoid needless nonvolatile memory wear, a little bit of work to implement
- Any other settings you might be interested in saving?
- Auto-selecting input by polling both inputs: doable, not difficult, may require some code reorganization for maintainability purposes.
Or I just might be biased in that I want that auto-polling.
EDIT: volatile -> nonvolatile
Last edited by DirkSwizzler on Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Posts: 1974
- Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:52 pm
Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
I agree with your assessment; there's no reason to save the last-used input if signal detection is just going to automatically find whichever is connected (and it doesn't even have to be that smart--lock onto the first one detected, resume scanning when signal lost).DirkSwizzler wrote:I would assume that auto-polling inputs would satisfy a significant portion of people wanting the device to remember the last input. At which point you might only need to remember the pedestal setting. Which I assume people wouldn't toggle much. And would altogether reduce volatile memory wear?megari wrote: As for some other things people have asked for:
- Remembering the input last used before power-off: doable, easy, some thinking to avoid needless nonvolatile memory wear, a little bit of work to implement
- Any other settings you might be interested in saving?
- Auto-selecting input by polling both inputs: doable, not difficult, may require some code reorganization for maintainability purposes.
Or I just might be biased in that I want that auto-polling.
I also don't expect that the pedestal setting is going to be changed often, but it does make me wonder if there's some way of automatically discerning pedestal as well. I'm not sure if I correctly understand all of this, but, if 1) 0 IRE corresponds to 0V and 7.5 IRE corresponds to ~53mV; 2) video frames that use 7.5 IRE (NTSC-U/C) never dip to 0V; and 3) monitoring the voltage of luma during the video frame is possible, then I think a reasonable approach to automatically detecting the pedestal might be to start by assuming the higher pedestal (because it's reasonable for frames with both pedestals to be around ~53mV), then switch to the lower pedestal if the voltage ever drops to 0 during the video information (because 7.5 IRE frames should never dip that low, but 0 IRE frames absolutely will).
Then again, I'm really not sure if signal analysis like that is really all that possible on devices like the Koryuu or OSSC.
Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
Many ADC chips have test registers that show an ADC reading snapshot.
These update quickly and one can just monitor them in a loop for a while.
If the readout never dips below the pedestal threshold, then we can assume a pedestal is present.
This should work reliably, due to CVBS / S-Video having a somewhat good standard with regards to voltages.
(Exception: Be wary of these damn Mega Drives ;p)
I suppose if the ADC also reads the sync tip, that this can be filtered out. The sync tip will be of a much lower voltage.
These update quickly and one can just monitor them in a loop for a while.
If the readout never dips below the pedestal threshold, then we can assume a pedestal is present.
This should work reliably, due to CVBS / S-Video having a somewhat good standard with regards to voltages.
(Exception: Be wary of these damn Mega Drives ;p)
I suppose if the ADC also reads the sync tip, that this can be filtered out. The sync tip will be of a much lower voltage.