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 Post subject: Re: New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:20 pm 



Joined: 17 Jun 2016
Posts: 155
fernan1234 wrote:
PearlJammzz wrote:
I wonder if we'll see a proper ODE for PS1/PS2 one day soon. The PSIO is cool but tons of issues with games. Rather have a proper ODE that replaces the disc drive.


Same. The two Cybdyn devs deserve a lot of credit for being the only ones that have even stepped up to the challenge of making a PS1 ODE, but the way recent firmware "upgrades" have gone makes me wonder if an accurate CD-ROM emulator is within their skill set. I'd bet if we see a proper PS1 ODE it'll come from a Japanese developer, since a lot of the documentation seems to be available only in Japanese, and the person with the most knowledge (Xebra emulator dev) is apparently not easy to reach through the language barrier.

For PS2 games we already have a fantastic solution with OPL (though not 100% perfect as several games require special mode combos). But a proper PS2 ODE would be ideal for accurate support of both PS1 and PS2 games.

I'm sure this GC ODE will be very nice. I already have a Wii-Dual'd Wii so I hardly need one myself, but if I had a GC and official component cables I would be all over it as to be free from relying on GCVideo and the chore of flashing new firmwares when new bugs pop up.


PSIO is amazing. great menu, fast loading, 99.9% compatibility. a few games out of thousands have issues and theres constant firmware updates. gimme a break. i call this phenomenon "32x syndrome"


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 Post subject: Re: New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:24 pm 



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tusecsy wrote:

PSIO is amazing. great menu, fast loading, 99.9% compatibility. a few games out of thousands have issues and theres constant firmware updates. gimme a break. i call this phenomenon "32x syndrome"


Let me start by saying that the PSIO is amazing, I agree, mainly because no one else has achieved the same feat. But you're wrong on the rest. The 99.9% compatibility claim is incredibly misleading. It's not even necessary to get into the obscure parts of the PS1 library to find problems. Go ahead and update to the newest firmware and tell me that you're having a good experience even with the most popular games. I feel like only people who have not seriously put time into PSIO usage still believe this compatibility claim.

Even on the older more stable firmware the "few games out of thousands" was false, though admittedly that depends on how you define "few".

That said, the two-man Cybdyn team does seem to be taking the current issues seriously and I still hope to be surprised again, pleasantly this time, by the update they've said is coming up soon.


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 Post subject: Re: New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:00 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
darcagn wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
Especially with the DVD Drive removed, you have a lot more circulation inside.


This is not always a good thing for cooling, as some consoles require all the components to be intact so air flows a specific way. For example, on a Dreamcast if you remove the GD-ROM, air flow no longer goes over the PSU and cuts across where the GD-ROM used to be, resulting in increases in temperature for the power supply.

Where, exactly, does that air come from? I don't have the best understanding how everything fits together, but, as far as I can tell, the only intake is at the rear of the console, which opens to the GD-ROM area, and the only opening to the PSU area is at the front of the console, on the other side of the GD-ROM, the rear portion being blocked off with a plastic wall.

Unless there's a gap at in that plastic wall at the rear of the console, I'm under the impression that the PSU doesn't get much airflow.


You mean the bendy piece of plastic that goes under the PSU and up between the PSU and GD-ROM? It looks like that would create an airflow channel between the rear intake and front exhaust, running alongside the PSU and GD-ROM. But it doesn't completely cut the PSU off from having air flow over it from the rear to the front.

If the GD-ROM were removed then the airflow channel between the GD-ROM and the PSU would be eliminated, and the air would flow straight from the back out the front without being forced through the leftward toward the PSU.

Putting a 3D-printed tray in the place of the GD-ROM works to direct airflow back to where it belongs. And of course it looks nice and stores SD cards too. Same could be done on GameCube.

Of course, I've never done any analysis on this or taken any data on temps. This is all sort of the "conventional wisdom" of the Dreamcast scene, which, to be completely fair, is filled with myths that catch on and spread.


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 Post subject: Re: New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:04 pm 



Joined: 17 Jun 2016
Posts: 155
fernan1234 wrote:
tusecsy wrote:

PSIO is amazing. great menu, fast loading, 99.9% compatibility. a few games out of thousands have issues and theres constant firmware updates. gimme a break. i call this phenomenon "32x syndrome"


Let me start by saying that the PSIO is amazing, I agree, mainly because no one else has achieved the same feat. But you're wrong on the rest. The 99.9% compatibility claim is incredibly misleading. It's not even necessary to get into the obscure parts of the PS1 library to find problems. Go ahead and update to the newest firmware and tell me that you're having a good experience even with the most popular games. I feel like only people who have not seriously put time into PSIO usage still believe this compatibility claim.

Even on the older more stable firmware the "few games out of thousands" was false, though admittedly that depends on how you define "few".

That said, the two-man Cybdyn team does seem to be taking the current issues seriously and I still hope to be surprised again, pleasantly this time, by the update they've said is coming up soon.


Why would I upgrade to a firmware that doesn't work. Whatever firmware I'm on is working fine for the 400 titles I play on a regular basis. If they had a bad firmware release I'm sure they'll fix it with the next one. Never had a single problem with any title I threw at it.


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 Post subject: Re: New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:55 pm 



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tusecsy wrote:
Why would I upgrade to a firmware that doesn't work. Whatever firmware I'm on is working fine for the 400 titles I play on a regular basis. If they had a bad firmware release I'm sure they'll fix it with the next one. Never had a single problem with any title I threw at it.


The main problem is for people who updated after hearing about updates that were supposed to fix broken games, but ended up with progressively worse compatibility or slow speeds (slower than a dying real optical drive) on a device that doesn't allow downgrades mainly as an anti-clone measure. But yes eventually things should get at least as good as they were on last year's firmware.

If you didn't update consider yourself lucky, and also lucky your list of 400 regular games doesn't include the ones with bugs, even some of the system's best games like Final Fantasy 7, Resident Evil 2, Resident Evil 3, etc. It's also unclear if they'll ever figure out ATV register support, so some audio playback effects (such as fade in/out) will not be correct.

It may sound to you like I'm just shitting on the PSIO, but the truth is I do appreciate the device, though I also feel misled by the 99.9% compatibility claim with which they sold it. I think it may be true that 99% of games successfully start up, and this is what a lot of reviewers looked at, loading up the first 5 minutes of several games, but actual playability through completion or without read speed, video, and audio inaccuracies is a different matter.


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 Post subject: Re: New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:01 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
It may sound to you like I'm just shitting on the PSIO, but the truth is I do appreciate the device, though I also feel misled by the 99.9% compatibility claim with which they sold it. I think it may be true that 99% of games successfully start up, and this is what a lot of reviewers looked at, loading up the first 5 minutes of several games, but actual playability through completion or without read speed, video, and audio inaccuracies is a different matter.


I'm glad you're bringing attention to it. I had planned on getting one soon in the next few months, but I was under the assumption it was really a 99.9% compatibility like the Dreamcast GDEMU. If that's not the case, I'll hold off for longer or wait for a better alternative.


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 Post subject: Re: New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:24 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 1692
darcagn wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
It may sound to you like I'm just shitting on the PSIO, but the truth is I do appreciate the device, though I also feel misled by the 99.9% compatibility claim with which they sold it. I think it may be true that 99% of games successfully start up, and this is what a lot of reviewers looked at, loading up the first 5 minutes of several games, but actual playability through completion or without read speed, video, and audio inaccuracies is a different matter.


I'm glad you're bringing attention to it. I had planned on getting one soon in the next few months, but I was under the assumption it was really a 99.9% compatibility like the Dreamcast GDEMU. If that's not the case, I'll hold off for longer or wait for a better alternative.

If you can secure one with an older firmware, and you don't mind the tedious install procedure, I'd say the PSIO not a bad buy; but it is absolutely flawed.

I would much rather see something that sat in place of and pretended to be the CD drive assembly, while also hooking into the motherboard with a flex cable (can pass through openings in the upper EM shield). Ideally, it would tie into the disc lid switch, so that if you started the console with the lid closed, the ODE would load its UI, and starting the console with the lid open would send you to the BIOS so you could still manage your game saves. Want to make it more like the PSIO? Make it a little PCB that lives on top of the EM shield and sits between the power and data connections to the drive assembly, and, just like the PSIO, if it detects a CD, pass-through the commands and data, otherwise go into ODE mode and cut off the CD drive.


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 Post subject: Re: New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:24 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
I would much rather see something that sat in place of and pretended to be the CD drive assembly, while also hooking into the motherboard with a flex cable (can pass through openings in the upper EM shield). Ideally, it would tie into the disc lid switch, so that if you started the console with the lid closed, the ODE would load its UI, and starting the console with the lid open would send you to the BIOS so you could still manage your game saves. Want to make it more like the PSIO? Make it a little PCB that lives on top of the EM shield and sits between the power and data connections to the drive assembly, and, just like the PSIO, if it detects a CD, pass-through the commands and data, otherwise go into ODE mode and cut off the CD drive.

Unfortunately as I mentioned on the previous page, a typical ODE for PS1 is just not possible because there is no separate drive daughterboard - the drive electronics/chips are incorporated directly onto the PS1 motherboard. To make a 'plug and play' ODE for the PS1 would require someone to emulate the laser/optical pickup unit, which no ODE has done so far :(


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 Post subject: Re: New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:14 am 



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Link83 wrote:
To make a 'plug and play' ODE for the PS1 would require someone to emulate the laser/optical pickup unit, which no ODE has done so far :(

I'm aware, and I was suggesting that it simulate the pickup unit. The fact that no one has accomplished that yet doesn't mean anything.

And it wouldn't be plug'n'play if it needs to tap into the motherboard and/or disc lid switch, but the installation would be far easier and less destructive compared to the PSIO's.


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 Post subject: Re: New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:41 am 


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nmalinoski wrote:
Link83 wrote:
To make a 'plug and play' ODE for the PS1 would require someone to emulate the laser/optical pickup unit, which no ODE has done so far :(

I'm aware, and I was suggesting that it simulate the pickup unit. The fact that no one has accomplished that yet doesn't mean anything.

And it wouldn't be plug'n'play if it needs to tap into the motherboard and/or disc lid switch, but the installation would be far easier and less destructive compared to the PSIO's.

I seem to recall years ago deunan made a comment on one of the gdemu wordpress posts about the likelyhood of emulating an optical pickup for the Mega-CD, and IIRC they said the chances were very slim as you would have to emulate pits, wobble, focus, seek times, spindle speed, etc (I might be misremembering this, but I think it was likened to the chances of someone emulating the needle/stylus on a record player!)

I think its much more likely that if we do ever see on ODE for the PS1 it will use a custom FFC and require fine pitch soldering to tap into the drive bus signals directly on the motherboard.

However who knows what the future holds? Maybe if there is someone with enough determination...


Last edited by Link83 on Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:09 am 



Joined: 08 Mar 2017
Posts: 1323
Regarding a PSX direct ODE, there's some more details here:
https://www.obscuregamers.com/threads/p ... /post-3874

It would require some real effort though.
The CD controller chip (Mechacon) would have to be made "happy" with what it receives from the hacked up DSP.
It may be simple to do, or it may be so hard that it'd be easier to write a software Mechacon instead.

Another problem is that it'd only work with PSX consoles with the necessary bus exposed.
That should be up to and including the SCPH-5000 series, maybe the 7000 as well.

A "true" EFM data producing ODE is harder to do, but once one existed, it could be adapted to all CD based consoles.
Here I think the problem is that afaik no one has ever done it.
Should the data be generated on the fly, or should there be an offline file converter?
How fast does the data have to appear?
A PSX drive does ~2.4Mbps but I think that's already EFM > 8bit converted, so maybe roughly 5Mbps are needed? That's a 5MHz stream.

It would be far easier to install than any other solution (simply plug in the ribbon cable), and barring any EFM bugs, it would be 100% compatible by design.


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 Post subject: Re: New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:49 pm 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
Posts: 602
At the end of the day, it sounds (to my unexperienced ear) like an ODE for the PS1 wouldn't really provide much compatibility benefit over the PS-IO given how many things it has to emulate. And honestly, the PS-IO was pretty easy to install IMO, I can't imagine that an ODE would be any easier given the limitations already mentioned.


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 Post subject: Re: New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:50 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 1692
thebigcheese wrote:
At the end of the day, it sounds (to my unexperienced ear) like an ODE for the PS1 wouldn't really provide much compatibility benefit over the PS-IO given how many things it has to emulate. And honestly, the PS-IO was pretty easy to install IMO, I can't imagine that an ODE would be any easier given the limitations already mentioned.

The way I understand it, the PSIO isn't an ODE in the same way we understand the ODEs for the Dreamcast and Saturn. The GDEMU, for example, pretends to be the entire GD-ROM drive, which is relatively straightforward. The PSIO, on the other hand, has to tap into data buses, remote control some processors, and do XA decoding itself because it can't access everything from the parallel port--it's a far more complex device than ODEs for other consoles; moreso a development/debugging tool, which is what it's marketed as.


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 Post subject: Re: New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:15 pm 


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Updated version is now a 100% a solder free installation (I think this outright replaces the solder version?)
Image

Sign up for notification of stock here: https://shop.dansprojects.com/gc-loader.html


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 Post subject: Re: GC Loader - New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:29 pm 



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Awesome! I hope the next update is a wii version. It's about time someone put that GC backwards compatibility to full use.


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 Post subject: Re: GC Loader - New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:31 am 


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Wow!
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 Post subject: Re: GC Loader - New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:11 pm 



Joined: 28 Jan 2020
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I have the sp2sd and love it. Perhaps I get the ode too next batch so i dont have to double load swiss.


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 Post subject: Re: GC Loader - New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:52 pm 



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Wolf_ wrote:
Awesome! I hope the next update is a wii version. It's about time someone put that GC backwards compatibility to full use.


What advantage would it have over Nintendont, which seems to be working perfectly already?


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 Post subject: Re: GC Loader - New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:38 pm 



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fernan1234 wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
Awesome! I hope the next update is a wii version. It's about time someone put that GC backwards compatibility to full use.


What advantage would it have over Nintendont, which seems to be working perfectly already?

Nintendon't has many issues.
https://wiki.gbatemp.net/wiki/Nintendon ... ility_List


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 Post subject: Re: GC Loader - New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:54 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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Wolf_ wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
Awesome! I hope the next update is a wii version. It's about time someone put that GC backwards compatibility to full use.


What advantage would it have over Nintendont, which seems to be working perfectly already?

Nintendon't has many issues.
https://wiki.gbatemp.net/wiki/Nintendon ... ility_List


It really doesn't, if you actually go through that list you'll notice that there are only some issues if you use forced widescreen hacks, or if you're using compressed images in some cases. Using 1-1 images and not using hacks should be perfect for pretty much the entire library of all regions.


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 Post subject: Re: GC Loader - New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:23 pm 



Joined: 30 Mar 2019
Posts: 26
Wolf_ wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
Awesome! I hope the next update is a wii version. It's about time someone put that GC backwards compatibility to full use.


What advantage would it have over Nintendont, which seems to be working perfectly already?

Nintendon't has many issues.
https://wiki.gbatemp.net/wiki/Nintendon ... ility_List


There's literally only one game in that list that doesn't run (unlicensed, to boot).

Honestly, I'm all for having options, but making a Wii ODE seems like a waste of resources at this point.


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 Post subject: Re: GC Loader - New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:04 pm 



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shroom2k wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
What advantage would it have over Nintendont, which seems to be working perfectly already?

Nintendon't has many issues.
https://wiki.gbatemp.net/wiki/Nintendon ... ility_List


There's literally only one game in that list that doesn't run (unlicensed, to boot).

Honestly, I'm all for having options, but making a Wii ODE seems like a waste of resources at this point.

Because as long as a game boots any other issues you have playing it don't matter at all right? Slow and laggy sprite loading doesn't have any impact on gameplay at all right? And tons of games having video modes like 480p not working is perfectly ok and doesn't have any impact on anything at all either.


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 Post subject: Re: GC Loader - New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:15 pm 


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Wolf_ wrote:
And tons of games having video modes like 480p not working is perfectly ok and doesn't have any impact on anything at all either.

A Wii ODE won't fix that.


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 Post subject: Re: GC Loader - New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:30 pm 



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Wolf_ wrote:
Because as long as a game boots any other issues you have playing it don't matter at all right? Slow and laggy sprite loading doesn't have any impact on gameplay at all right? And tons of games having video modes like 480p not working is perfectly ok and doesn't have any impact on anything at all either.


Have you even used Nintendont extensively? I can't say that I've played through every single game, but I have used it for quite a lot, both popular and very obscure games, and feel pretty confident that as long as you run games as you would on a GC (no widescreen hacks, no forced 480p when the game does not natively support it, no compression) you should have absolutely zero issues from start to finish.

The truth is that Nintendont is so good it makes even a GC ODE unnecessary from a strict gameplay perspective, especially now that you can get GCVideo quality picture from a Wii, but I can see the appeal of the GC ODE for those attached to using the GC console for whatever reason. But a Wii ODE really would be redundant.


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 Post subject: Re: GC Loader - New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:20 am 


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This looks excellent!
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 Post subject: Re: GC Loader - New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:26 am 



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fernan1234 wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:
Because as long as a game boots any other issues you have playing it don't matter at all right? Slow and laggy sprite loading doesn't have any impact on gameplay at all right? And tons of games having video modes like 480p not working is perfectly ok and doesn't have any impact on anything at all either.


Have you even used Nintendont extensively? I can't say that I've played through every single game, but I have used it for quite a lot, both popular and very obscure games, and feel pretty confident that as long as you run games as you would on a GC (no widescreen hacks, no forced 480p when the game does not natively support it, no compression) you should have absolutely zero issues from start to finish.

The truth is that Nintendont is so good it makes even a GC ODE unnecessary from a strict gameplay perspective, especially now that you can get GCVideo quality picture from a Wii, but I can see the appeal of the GC ODE for those attached to using the GC console for whatever reason. But a Wii ODE really would be redundant.


Honestly you are close to being correct because the audio issues are few and usually very minor and of the 20 pal exclusive games all have working ntsc patches and sure there are numerous issues across a multitude of games with widescreen patches but that is more of a hack and while enjoyable not having it doesn't detract from my ability to enjoy the game (not to mention the issue with many of the widescreen hacks is probably the limits of the gc hardware itself) so that is completely fine.

But what really makes a difference in my enjoyment of a game is if it has progressive mode and there are many games with broken progressive modes that I would like to see if they could be fixed by running the patched roms directly on the wii. And who knows perhaps a lot of the other optional hacks would work better when run directly. Also if you want to play around with things like widescreen and progressive and rom compression without looking at the compatibility list for every one of the items listed it can be a bit of a pain figuring out which option has caused an issue with the game. It isn't very plug and play friendly.


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 Post subject: Re: GC Loader - New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:05 pm 



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I think Wii games would also load faster and have less slowdown with an ODE.


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 Post subject: Re: GC Loader - New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:14 pm 



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Wolf_ wrote:
Honestly you are close to being correct because the audio issues are few and usually very minor and of the 20 pal exclusive games all have working ntsc patches and sure there are numerous issues across a multitude of games with widescreen patches


Again, all the things you mention are hacks and so you can't say Nintendont has compatibility issues, but rather limitations in relation to such hacks that I also imagine an ODE can't magically overcome, and Extrems above confirmed it.

And this is only talking about GC on Wii, but for Wii games there are also already fully compatible image loaders (once again assuming that no hacks are being used, though those often work fine) that also provide excellent frontend user experience, like USBLoaderGX (which also acts as a frontend for Nintendont). So both for GC and Wii games, why go through a difficult hardware mod (even if solderless, which I doubt) when a perfect software solution already exists? If someone does develop a new Wii ODE hopefully they start with very small batches.


GeneraLight wrote:
I think Wii games would also load faster and have less slowdown with an ODE.


Compared to real disc? Of course. But they already load so fast from USB and SD using image launchers. They have no slowdown.


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 Post subject: Re: GC Loader - New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:31 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Again, all the things you mention are hacks and so you can't say Nintendont has compatibility issues, but rather limitations in relation to such hacks that I also imagine an ODE can't magically overcome, and Extrems above confirmed it.

This is a limitation specific to Nintendont. Swiss has vastly better compatibility.


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 Post subject: Re: GC Loader - New GameCube ODE by citrus3000psi/Meneerbeer
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:34 pm 


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Does Swiss still require cMios to work on a Wii?


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