Little things that annoy the hell out of you

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Sumez
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by Sumez »

The difference between completing and beating is worth recognizing.
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by Randorama »

Sumez wrote:I'm sure it makes it hard to grasp the idea of a pure action game. But I get this approach more often from people of my own generation who feel like they are too adult and busy and kids-having to sit down and spend time on playing any single stage of an old-school game more than once.

Please forgive me for the selective remark, but I will never believe that you've never shouted at the screen something like "enough, you stupid dinosaur game! I don't have time for this, let me win without making a fuss!" :lol:



...as someone who is in academia, I am witnessing an inordinate amount of young'uns who seem hard-wired with ridiculous levels of entitlement, ultimately boiling down to a pure consumeristic attitude: "I paid for this, so I want to purchase a result without an effort".

I found the attitude to be present in various amounts across different generations (I do teach across different age groups), because consumerism is certainly not a new phenomenon, and this seems to hold across different countries, from what I have seen. I have been going around a bit, so to speak.

I would go on and say that all these rants about what counts as cheating and whatnot are related to what counts as obtaining vs. purchasing a result. There is also much more at stake (say, gate-keeping as a mechanism of defining in-group vs. out-group), but I think that Kitten and everyone else have discussed the matter in a rather appropriate manner.


Also: @Ed: deal! Can we get some unmotivated capital punishment for the offenders? :wink:

@6t8k: I would say that pathological procrastination is an Asian malaise, but I should probably shut up, as an Italian. I lived and worked in Germanic countries, so I picked up the healthy habit of completing task on time and in an orderly fashion. I even received complaints about this :wink:
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by Udderdude »

It's this meme all over again .. :lol:

Also, actually trying to play a game while constantly hammering the rewind button looks really annoying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Dze5dWLSF8
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by Sumez »

Wow, even in the comments to that video.
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by Mischief Maker »

I always thought Volgarr the Viking had the best trailer for communicating THIS IS HOW YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO PLAY OUR GAME, NEWBS!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nN9mKr_O2og

On a similar note, I want to say nobody is a "master" of Tetris if you're playing one of the versions that allows you to "hold" an inconvenient piece. Damn kids.
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by Blinge »

Udderdude wrote:It's this meme all over again .. :lol:

Also, actually trying to play a game while constantly hammering the rewind button looks really annoying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Dze5dWLSF8
SEE, I CAN BEAT IT!!
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by Steamflogger Boss »

Mischief Maker wrote: On a similar note, I want to say nobody is a "master" of Tetris if you're playing one of the versions that allows you to "hold" an inconvenient piece. Damn kids.
NES Tetris forever.
Blinge wrote:
Udderdude wrote:It's this meme all over again .. :lol:

Also, actually trying to play a game while constantly hammering the rewind button looks really annoying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Dze5dWLSF8
SEE, I CAN BEAT IT!!
L o fuckin l.

Rando brings up a good point about I paid for this so I shouldn't have to expend any effort. Seems to be the prevalent attitude now.
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by Blinge »

RESURRECTION!!

for posterity.
https://youtu.be/sAXJX2XK9rQ

lmfao
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by Sumez »

Mischief Maker wrote: On a similar note, I want to say nobody is a "master" of Tetris if you're playing one of the versions that allows you to "hold" an inconvenient piece. Damn kids.
<3

I'm kind of active in the Tetris community/communities (you won't believe how fractured a community based around an abstract game of tesselating geometric shapes can get), and this is obviously a recurring topic. Surprisingly, a vast majority of people playing Tetris nowadays are relative newcomers who grew up with versions that have the hold button, so to them not having it is the unfamiliar thing.

Me facetiously calling the hold button "cheating" has become a bit of a habit, but to play the devil's advocate I do see the relevance of the feature. As famous tetris-scholar Kitaru counter-argued when he thought I was serious about it, the hold feature is more of a strategic reordering of the pieces, than a crutch helping you dealing with "inconcenient pieces".
I guess think of it like kakusei in Espgaluda or bombing in Garegga. You can use it as a crutch to survive, but doing so will forego the ability to allow more aggressive play with more risky strategies and bigger rewards.
Its natural home is modern guideline based Tetris games which are designed entirely for versus-games, and different variations of T-spin setups, etc. are used to more effectively send lines to the opponent. But even in single-player Tetris, TGM3 uses it to demand more flawless and consistent play, reaching much higher speeds than the previous games in the series.

That said, however, I think it really just creates two entirely different games. And one of them is possibly my favourite game of all time, while I really don't care at all for the other.
In my perspective, the core puzzle of Tetris is all about being able to constantly deal with whatever bullshit you are given, and no easy way out. At any given moment you might be able to receive any of 7 different viable pieces, and playing well is centered around constantly being prepared for either of them. I don't want survival to be given, I want it to be the primary challenge, moreso than anything else.

Hell, the hold button is just of several aspects included in the current modern Tetris guidelines, and it's not even the worst. Consider stuff like 7-bag, SRS kicks, multiple previews, and move reset. All terrible additions to the game if you ask me, and all official games are forced to have it.
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by Steamflogger Boss »

Blinge wrote:RESURRECTION!!

for posterity.
https://youtu.be/sAXJX2XK9rQ

lmfao
Lol wtf. How old is this video?
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by Blinge »

Steamflogz that was a former member, a one atheistgod99

Ahahah. I found it!

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=53088&p=1197068&hil ... +#p1197068

the TV under the table still gets me :lol:
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by Steamflogger Boss »

Blinge wrote:Steamflogz that was a former member, a one atheistgod99

Ahahah. I found it!

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=53088&p=1197068&hil ... +#p1197068

the TV under the table still gets me :lol:
Great thread.

TV on the floor is so trashy.

An aside: checked your youtube channel. What a cutey playing guitar wow. :oops:
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by Sumez »

Lol, I can't tell if I've seen that video before and forgotten it, but (re?)watching it I can't help the feeling that AG99 was actually just an incredibly well crafted troll account.

EDIT: I wish I could remember what he got banned for. He managed to edit the post away. :(
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Blinge wrote:Nah this whole accessibility bullshit gets to me. In a modern all-inclusive world you cannot allow a game to have challenge because that's gatekeeping.

Also the semantic arguments are annoying. I know someone who refuses to budge from claiming to have 'beaten' a shmup, despite credit feeding the entire thing. Where is the act of beating occuring?
mashing that insert credit/start button every 10 seconds takes some serious skill :V

I agree that games have to retain a measure of challenge, otherwise there isn't really a game involved, it's just a glorified semi-interactive movie where your actions have no real impact. That being said, I do believe all games should have Judgement Silversword style unlockable cheats so players who really can't get through the game legitimately can toggle them if they just want to see everything or can't unlock stuff normally (if beating the game with a 1CC unlocks something, etc). That way players who aren't skilled enough to do it legitimately don't have to feel like they miss out on seeing all the content in the game (usually an invulnerability cheat that doesn't deny unlocking stuff or seeing the entire story is enough, for platformers you might also need something like that cheat in Mega Man 3 where you can jump out of pits).
Sumez wrote:Surprisingly, a vast majority of people playing Tetris nowadays are relative newcomers who grew up with versions that have the hold button, so to them not having it is the unfamiliar thing.
Really? I thought everyone was nuts for the NES version of Tetris and the TGM versions are relatively unknown by comparison. At least that's the impression I get from tournaments, but I suppose an NES is a lot easier to setup for a tourney than an actual PCB but maybe it's part of that.
I guess think of it like kakusei in Espgaluda or bombing in Garegga. You can use it as a crutch to survive, but doing so will forego the ability to allow more aggressive play with more risky strategies and bigger rewards.
This is an apt comparison. I prefer the modernized arcade games over the older NES game, but I can see the charm of not having a hold button as a limitation. Having played through stuff like Giga Wing without reflect and Espgaluda without Kakusei, it helps you appreciate those abilities more when you don't have them, and appreciate how capable the player character is without them.
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by Steamflogger Boss »

PRGE also has TGM tournaments and a bunch of Tetris tournaments in general. The NES one is what everyone cares about and gets the pub though.
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

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Steamflogger Boss wrote:
An aside: checked your youtube channel. What a cutey playing guitar wow. :oops:
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

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UWUUUUUUUU
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by Steamflogger Boss »

I'd argue this crosses over the line to be more than "little" but DJ Durkin is employed by a college football program again. I don't expect most of shmups farm to have much knowledge of American sports so here are the cliffs notes: football coach that basically killed a kid.

Not cliffs notes: https://www.sbnation.com/college-footba ... -dj-durkin
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by TransatlanticFoe »

Most modern games have super-easy modes as a concession to accessibility and (notably given the narrative focus in modern gaming) I think that's the right way to handle it, as is putting rewind in retro re-releases. It's a neat "let's get through this" for anyone wanting a quick blast or a natural extension of save states for practice (let's not go there AGAIN :D). It's no more "beating the game" than only clearing something with a tonne of Action Replay codes enabled. But you can quickly get up to speed with sections of the game that you might have to fight through 45 mins of "this is easy" to get around to attempting it again, and that's pretty key in making retro accessible when there are SO MANY games out there worth playing (and cheap/naughty free). But you only beat the damn thing if you didn't use: cheat codes, glitching, save state scumming, rewind - this is not new, it's just the level select cheat of the modern age.

I like what Shadow of the Tomb Raider went for, in offering customisable difficulty for different aspects of the game, even if the game is too broken for it to make much difference. Dial up the combat but make the puzzles easier to get through, if murder is your thing (like the 2013 reboot taught you it absolutely should be). Or plough through goons to get to the bit where you stand in a dark room and don't even get Lara talking to herself to help you out. It's your choice and that's the key, letting you work out what's for you.

For the most part devs don't think about difficulty settings but they really should. It's always just scaling your health vs. enemy health (and usually in a non-linear "piss easy -> meh -> masochists only" scale) when there's the chance to do so much more. You can lead a novice player towards "normal" difficulty by having fewer enemies that are just as threatening, so it's not just a slaughterfest that does nothing to prepare them for the real game (see also: CAVE novice modes). But make hard a fun challenge (more/remixed enemies, better AI) instead of "lol now everything takes forever to dispose of and insta-kills you".

Damn, I want to play MD Mercs on the hidden exploding everything difficulty now.
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by FinalBaton »

Aww man. poor AG99. I hope he's okay, I don't wish no harm on him. but damn...
Sumez wrote:Lol, I can't tell if I've seen that video before and forgotten it, but (re?)watching it I can't help the feeling that AG99 was actually just an incredibly well crafted troll account.

EDIT: I wish I could remember what he got banned for. He managed to edit the post away. :(
mabes. not impossible. but I'd tend to go with the genuine option myself

if it was all a work tho and he created this disfunctional character and stayed with it all this time non-stop then... my hats off to him, really. that'd be masterful trolling of the highest-level. truly GOD tier (pardon the pun :lol: )
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by Sumez »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote: Really? I thought everyone was nuts for the NES version of Tetris and the TGM versions are relatively unknown by comparison. At least that's the impression I get from tournaments, but I suppose an NES is a lot easier to setup for a tourney than an actual PCB but maybe it's part of that.
Even among NES players, at this point the majority of them are really young, and though a few of them probably still got started on NES in recent years due to the continuing popularity of CTWC, they are all of the "modern Tetris" generation.
TGM at least does not have hold, not until the third game which definitely isn't my cup of tea. TGM2 on the other hand is the perfect evolution of classic old-school Tetris as I see it. A fantastic masterpiece of a game.

Regarding tournaments, I'm actually responsible for running a major annual NES Tetris tournament myself. And I'd say moreso than convenience, NES Tetris wins out here as it's simply the superior choice in terms of presenting the game as a spectator sport.
Vs. games in modern guideline-based variants is way too quick and confusing for anyone to follow, not to mention commentate on. While NES Tetris is still very fast, it appears slower due to the lack of lock delay, and the simpler rules makes it easier for people who aren't necessarily proficient at the game to follow. The games are longer which makes for more exciting matches, as any single mistake could cause either player to top out at any moment.
There's a lot more going on that you can't really see if you aren't into the game, due to the awkward quirks of the controls in this version - it's being able control this that really decides who's the superior player, but even if you aren't aware of that, the game still looks intuitive enough for anyone to see when someone makes an obvious mistake.

As a huge TGM fan myself I've been consistently thinking about and discussing with other fans what would be an ideal competition format to introduce those games as a part of the annual event. The classic format used in TGM contests is a race to the end of the game, but at least at the relatively low popularity the series is at now, something at least a bit more inclusive and intuitive is necessary. The consistency of the game means that the result of a race is often given beforehand. But I guess that's the case for a lot of racing disciplines.
This is an apt comparison. I prefer the modernized arcade games over the older NES game, but I can see the charm of not having a hold button as a limitation. Having played through stuff like Giga Wing without reflect and Espgaluda without Kakusei, it helps you appreciate those abilities more when you don't have them, and appreciate how capable the player character is without them.
I'd say it's more of core design concept than a "charm". When you're using hold entirely for survival purposes it feels like you're removing something from the game, rather than adding. Maybe it's more of an auto-bomb? :P It's more of a step to the side than a step forward anyway.
Steamflogger Boss wrote:PRGE also has TGM tournaments and a bunch of Tetris tournaments in general. The NES one is what everyone cares about and gets the pub though.
I've been to PRGE the past two years, and neither have had a TGM tournament. I know there's been something in the past like once or twice, but it's very minor. CTWC has always been about NES Tetris, to the point where a lot of people think NES Tetris is called "Classic Tetris" >_>
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by Steamflogger Boss »

Sumez wrote:
Steamflogger Boss wrote:PRGE also has TGM tournaments and a bunch of Tetris tournaments in general. The NES one is what everyone cares about and gets the pub though.
I've been to PRGE the past two years, and neither have had a TGM tournament. I know there's been something in the past like once or twice, but it's very minor. CTWC has always been about NES Tetris, to the point where a lot of people think NES Tetris is called "Classic Tetris" >_>
Didn't know they got rid of it. Shows how much attention I'm paying to it.
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by Sumez »

Yeah, and it wasn't too well received in some circles. Apparently there was a big thing planned for 2018 before it was cancelled without warning.
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by Steamflogger Boss »

Sumez wrote:Yeah, and it wasn't too well received in some circles. Apparently there was a big thing planned for 2018 before it was cancelled without warning.
That's really unfortunate. You would think the more Tetris the merrier. I enjoyed watching it I want to say in 2016 or 2017.
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Sumez wrote:TGM2 on the other hand is the perfect evolution of classic old-school Tetris as I see it. A fantastic masterpiece of a game.
TGM2 is actually my fave as well. I don't play Tetris too often and forgot if it had Hold or not (something I can take or leave). TGM2 has that insanely fun 2 player coop mode which makes it really fun in a crowd, though TGM3 is more popular at the local meets.
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by Sumez »

Man what wouldn't I give for local meets [outside of my own house] with TGM present :o
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

If you have a place to host, and preferably an arcade cab or two, you're pretty much there for hosting arcade/shmup meets. Just need locals to hang with. :P
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by Sumez »

Well there's the issue you see :P
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by FinalBaton »

I wish there were people in my area that were down for retro gaming meets -_-



On another note : people who make money on shipping...

I'm negociating buying a cart from this guy on facebook and I know that shipping a cart here costs $10 via Canada Post. So I ask him "how much extra for shipping the cart?"

"$20".

-_-
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Re: Little things that annoy the hell out of you

Post by WelshMegalodon »

Sumez wrote:With that out of the way, it pains me that people actually believe so hard in what they are saying. That having some sort of consequence for failing in a video game is archaic, bad design, "fake difficulty", etc.
Why the hell are you even playing a game which is about succesfully completing an action (jumping a hole, defeating an enemy, etc.) if you don't want it to make a difference whether you do complete said action or not?
I kiiiiiind of get it if you've grown up playing only modern game with a focus on story and setpieces, and barely any action gameplay. I'm sure it makes it hard to grasp the idea of a pure action game. But I get this approach more often from people of my own generation who feel like they are too adult and busy and kids-having to sit down and spend time on playing any single stage of an old-school game more than once.
I think there may be a tiiiny bit of strawmanning going on with this particular post, even if the attitude you are referring to does seem to be pretty common. That being said, what I really wanted to reply to was:
Sumez wrote:Lol, I can't tell if I've seen that video before and forgotten it, but (re?)watching it I can't help the feeling that AG99 was actually just an incredibly well crafted troll account.

EDIT: I wish I could remember what he got banned for. He managed to edit the post away. :(
I think this is giving him too much credit. He was just your typical lonely, socially inept teenager. There was a certain lack of self-awareness in his posts that makes it hard for me to believe he was trolling. Those embarrassing threads about the kid at his school that wasn't using a CRT also seem too genuinely cringe-worthy to be made up.
Blinge wrote:Also the semantic arguments are annoying. I know someone who refuses to budge from claiming to have 'beaten' a shmup, despite credit feeding the entire thing. Where is the act of beating occuring?
See, that's the thing. Because the continue feature is so readily available, people just see it as part of the game. As far as they are concerned, "Game Over" in any arcade game with continues doesn't actually mean "Game Over", it just means "Insert Coins to Keep Playing".

I myself wasn't aware of the "1-credit rule" until I read the article by that guy we don't like to talk about.
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