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 Post subject: Re: So, Degica...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:05 pm 


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Necronom wrote:

While this may not be the happy ending everyone wished for, it's really time to accept the fact that both companies will not cooperate again.


So people got appetizers (ds/mushi/dfk), but main dishes were never delivered (sdoj/akai katana/futari/etc.)

Also non-Cave. They might should have been done the whole Castle of Shikigami trilogy at once, instead of porting the first one (and only me an CJ buying it? oh dammit) etc. etc.

G-Rev - where is Under Defeat etc.? (Also, why never continuing DBCS? Still NO replays, still NO new bosses, not all composers from poll you held on twitter got place in dlcs...) Treasure - where is Radiant Silvergun etc.? Qute - where is Ginga Force? Taito - where are your Memories collections, ffs? Btw Groove Coaster port is kind of atrocious... Space Invaders Extreme is totally ok though.

...ok, now i start shifting from Degica question and going more onto general Steam begging, shame on me :mrgreen: still, where is mah Cambria Sword also? developer said he will...

come on, i need moar legendary or crazy stgs to gift to friends during holidays :twisted:

-

p.s.
That gorgeous twinstick shooter, Nex Machina, sold more than half of shmups presented on steam, while devs abandoned arcade style completely due to such flop. Damn, what a time. :|

Of course, you never see shmups on E3 or TGS presentation, they never get GOTY awards or even mentions on game news sites... They always get mediocre reviews... :evil:

yet utter shit like PUBG* that is made on assets from udk store keeps #1 top sales for years

fuck

*i'm yet so see actually great battle royale game, that will have both intricate gameplay (that focuses great on using environment, making well thought traps and situations etc.) AND having good enough style (not mediocre blandity or family friendly cartoon, think smth about Battle royale movie, how crazy those characters were, you need such level of charisma).
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 Post subject: Re: So, Degica...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:31 pm 


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qmish wrote:
Necronom wrote:
Of course, you never see shmups on E3 or TGS presentation, they never get GOTY awards or even mentions on game news sites... They always get mediocre reviews...

Yuru Kill literally got announced at TGS 2019. The fact that CAVE can't PC (or shmups anymore) doesn't mean shit. There's a wealth of STGs to look forward to ffs

I hate these undercover "shmups are dead because CAVE is dead" threads :x
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 Post subject: Re: So, Degica...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:52 pm 


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Quote:
"shmups are dead because CAVE is dead" threads


nah, it's dead cause Triangle Service doesn't do new shmups anymore, and why Pyramid never announced a new stg using all that DBCS experience they got? Also, SquareEnix, give Taito some fuckin budget! Also let Yoko Taro do a shmup he always wanted to, instead of adding elements to NieR... and, Konami, please sell away all your IPs including Hudson Soft ones to somebody who will do anything else than pachinko with it.



:shock:

Stop imaginating things on IKD alcohol leftover party and habit to decided that it's always "it's dead" talk when it's not (and cherry picking some rare exceptions that doesnt change grand scheme of things - like, when you go any non-shmup forums and check threads on "best games of year" or "best games of platform" and then return angry due to lack of shmup mentions over there, or how u go to any big game review site and while they even do a review of shmup or two during year, they dont include it in year results articles [or if include its freaking astebreed or sine mora])

p.s.
oh yeah, finally actually new g.rev game 7 times later, i forgot it was even announced due to how i only ever seen it once and it was like part of discussion where people feared will it be mostly vn or not.
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 Post subject: Re: So, Degica...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 11:58 pm 


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Necronom wrote:
Also, the 360 ports clearly showed that the only Cave titles with a soso mass appeal outside of Japan are Dodon and Deathsmiles.


Looks like SteamSpy has put up a paywall but the last time I checked it (a couple years ago, but all 3 Cave games were out), Mushi was on significantly more accounts than the other two. Not sure how valuable a metric this is, but Mushi currently has more user reviews than DFK and DS combined. Seems to me that indicates it has far more popularity (at least on Steam), although you didn't mention it for some reason.


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 Post subject: Re: So, Degica...
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:55 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
Elixir wrote:
Xyga wrote:
On eBay, some even beyond $1,000

Not everyone does his shopping on Japanese websites you know...


Just because something is listed on eBay for a ridiculous price doesn't mean that's the going rate, nor does it mean it's ever selling. Not everyone shops on eBay either.

Just because a minority of people's aware of going rates in Japan doesn't mean everyone wil automatically be.

For a lot what's perceptible from a western stand point, IS reality / going rates, etc. Even just the idea of trying to purchase from Japan is beyond them. Well, amazon seems okay for some when available, but that's apparently as far as many will go.
A large part of the post-original-retrogaming-era speculative boom and prices explosion that's still a thing today even if we're more in the aftermath now than in the middle of the apocalypse, was due largely to droves of people who ignored everything of 'rates in Japan' and still do today.

Don't make the mistake similar to - let's make some parallels using different focus topics - like in hardware discussions where a handful think everyone posting in there is skilled in building electronics and video science, or in emulation/development where for some it should go without saying that everyone knows at least a bit of programming, or hiscore and all related topics in which some seem to have always believed everyone in the entire niche demographics should take shmups as pure scoring and competition material and if they don't they're worthless.

Nope, shmups aren't so niche yet that everyone within the communities is objectively savvy in one, two, or all related fields whether it's for playing, building, or even purchasing...
Maybe one day only an actual handful of old veteran farts will remain and they'll all be knowledegeable and skilled-enough whatever the topic (some communties are already in that sad state, really only a handful of old farts ever posting) but even today for the shmups niche that still isn't the case.
Give it another decade or two and there won't be one member left not knowing about how to trigger that obscure juicy route only best players know about, not one not aware of the polarity and whatever TTL load for every machine's signal, not one ignoring the names of every unemulated chip in research and they'll be quoting dev progress lines on github directly before even whatsnew.txt even mentions it, and no one not aware how much X board sold on YAJ last month when it's sold a different amount at Y and Z jp shop days before and that buyer was ignorant after all lololol.


This is a wall of text to cover up the fact that you're wrong. All I did was search in Japanese and found those 35-65k yen prices. I'm no aftermarket expert, anyone can do this, it's public information. Nobody's buying the Cave Shooting Collection for $1000+.

I'm probably the most qualified person in the entire scene to speak about what people want, I get to listen to port begging on an almost daily basis. They want their games on stuff they're currently using, they don't want last-gen region-locked Xbox 360 games. They can't be magically ported either (unless the game engine is also ported, like STGBuilder currently is for Switch). I understand "basically just port everything in one go and sell it as a collection" mentality, but realistically that isn't going to happen - it's a financial waste, and if this were the case, M2 would have just ported Ketusi from PS3/360 to PS4. They didn't do this for a reason.
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 Post subject: Re: So, Degica...
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:27 pm 


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Elixir wrote:
This is a wall of text to cover up the fact that you're wrong. All I did was search in Japanese and found those 35-65k yen prices. I'm no aftermarket expert, anyone can do this, it's public information. Nobody's buying the Cave Shooting Collection for $1000

Wrong? what are you talking about? no I'm not, most people in the west don't buy directly from the Japanese market period, wouldn't know how to nor where to look and what to read about the goods mainly because of the langage barrier. For them reality is what they can manage to buy even if it's not the amount it goes for in Japan, which they often ignore anyway, and yes they pay the awful prices from western outlets, which even Japanese sellers abuse going through eBay or instance and notoriously so.
Those who've always been in sync with Japanese prices were always buyers and collectors who put more effort and time to develop their research skills there, always a minority anyway.

Elixir wrote:
I'm probably the most qualified person in the entire scene to speak about what people want, I get to listen to port begging on an almost daily basis. They want their games on stuff they're currently using, they don't want last-gen region-locked Xbox 360 games. They can't be magically ported either (unless the game engine is also ported, like STGBuilder currently is for Switch). I understand "basically just port everything in one go and sell it as a collection" mentality, but realistically that isn't going to happen - it's a financial waste, and if this were the case, M2 would have just ported Ketusi from PS3/360 to PS4. They didn't do this for a reason.

Oh come on, I've been in this from the end of the 90's and shmups specifically from the mid 00's and I know just as much as all of us that it's always been populated by people who before everything play on a variety of hardwares, lots of which is imported just like many of the games, because that' show it is, always was.
After the turn of the 2010's when platforms like Steam and frontends like RA began to gain importance, a new kind of sub-demographics, often slightly younger, added itself to the broader shmups population; punk-ass-bitches always whining that they want EVERYTHING ON PC AND LOCALIZED (AND CHEAP! :wink: ) because buying foreign consoles and import games is too hard or too expensive for them, even if they have had all the time in years of bitching to save the money and learn menus to fucking play like everyone else.
Years of whining and being dicks to people who dared to play on anything but PC, of condescenscion for people who just do it like they always did because that's how the market with its Japanese specifics is, and they can't help it, because they know crying for years to get PC ports that end up shitty and then complaining more gets us nowhere.
Anyone who's seen Japan make and sell shmups for decades can tell there's a large part of it all that never was and never will be fit for the PC dollar-store business model, it'll never bend to that form of economic culture and practices, and will always be awkward with localizing and selling licences overseas.
Pretending that's not, I mean coming from someone younger than you I'd understand, but...

PS1: The Collection reprint was just an idea which I do believe would have been right like I said in the early years of the current console gen, they didn't do three prints on 360 for nothing, I doubt they've lost any money, so they could as well have made another one for the Xbone soon after which wouldn't have been too hard (sure PS4 might have been harder), or make sure all would be available and working on digital.
Anyway I got mine for 260€ and I remember well we've spent about two~three years telling people to buy a 360 with that box as the best solution, to play Cave games at the very least.
Now that it's beyond too late they keep whining, and whining, and whining. For fuck's sake, I'm sure most of'em spent more money on shit games on sale than on the price of a JP or Jtag 360 + the cave box back then.

Anyway look, I know you've inherited a portion of that sub-demographics at your own place, but if you adapted your vision and narrative to their narrow one now, if you think what they say is representative of all the shmups scene and market, well, I mean go on and deny everything you want, present, past, tell people they're wrong for whatever reason, I'll think you're wrong too *shrug*, go on it's the internet man, nothing to earn there but either braindead followers or rabid haters, while each sub-community seems to develop its own favoured narratives and ideology, I mean fuck it, to each their own, their hostility has always been misplaced, irrational, and it's not the handful of members still visiting this godforsaken forum that started it, and that's a damn fact.

PS2: note to guys who don't like to read people taking the time to develop their thoughts (especially when it's arguments you don't like of course, because when it goes your way even if it's huge you congratulate and give thanks, of course. people are so simple it's boring), say then, why don't you stay on shitscord circlejerks ? where you can shitpost meaningless whatever at higher frenquency than on old forums software, and let those with the most influence and popularity guide the herd ? mmh ? :wink:
PS3: and before you place a 'what about your own hostility?' I reply the one between shmuppers never made sense still doesn't and the bulk of the shmups crowd is not to blame for it. But against the exclusive, divisive mentalities and narratives, where the social media nesting phenomenon and giant egos are a lot responsible for the sad status of things in several aspects, it is totally justified.
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 Post subject: Re: So, Degica...
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:56 am 


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Elixir wrote:
I understand "basically just port everything in one go and sell it as a collection" mentality, but realistically that isn't going to happen - it's a financial waste, and if this were the case, M2 would have just ported Ketusi from PS3/360 to PS4. They didn't do this for a reason.


Elixir is 100% right with this. As someone who has developed and released games on consoles, I find this to be the biggest disconnect between players and developers. People have no idea the cost involved in just a port job let alone developing for a new platform. Some of the takes in this thread are just not realistic. Degica and Cave ported the 360 versions because that's literally all they could afford. Neither are big companies that can afford to take a risk in spending money developing and from the Steam sales data, they were correct in minimising that risk because the games made no money.

M2 are in a completely different position. They have contract work lined up for years so they can afford to burn some money on a passion project like ShotTriggers. FWIW ShotTriggers are the only games outside of mobile completely funded and published by M2 in their 28 years. Making games is expensive and risky.

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Wrong? what are you talking about? no I'm not


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 Post subject: Re: So, Degica...
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:35 am 


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Yep. M2 are finally preserving some of these STGs in the way they deserve. I wish they didn't play musical chairs and change the platforms for every release (PS4-only, PS4+XB1, PS4+Switch) but we could be a lot worse right now.
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