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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:19 am 


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Anyone know how the extron emotias handle VGA 320x200 to 240p scaling?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:00 am 


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yes, 31khz 640x400 is supported, but I guess the 400 lines are converted to full 240 lines, so you don't get a 1:1 line mapping of your original 200 lines to the 240p output.

If you want a proper 1:1 line conversion you can use a processor like the 301 in between, which maps the 640x400 PC output into 640x480 signal with 40 black lines on top and bottom and route the resulting signal into an Emotia.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:05 pm 



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kel wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Cannonballs wrote:
What did you use?


It may have been Windex, which is what first damaged the AR coating. I don't remember if that's what I used to completely remove it of it it was just wet paper and elbow grease.


Depending on which country you are in you may have to find a similar alternative but in my experience Hob Brite ceramic hob cleaner will easily remove the damaged AR coating.


I am importing some, if you could let me know your method for removal that would be great.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:56 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
yes, 31khz 640x400 is supported, but I guess the 400 lines are converted to full 240 lines, so you don't get a 1:1 line mapping of your original 200 lines to the 240p output.

If you want a proper 1:1 line conversion you can use a processor like the 301 in between, which maps the 640x400 PC output into 640x480 signal with 40 black lines on top and bottom and route the resulting signal into an Emotia.


A "real" VGA monitor would have the option to vsize stretch the image out, and is what most people would have done with a 320x200 image. If the emotia is overscanning the image to fill the 240p area, that's more or less the effect that I would be looking for.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:12 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
A "real" VGA monitor would have the option to vsize stretch the image out

Those were/are pretty awesome, eh?



On another note, dabbling with higher end PVM monitors recently, only strenghtened my love for the RGB consumer set I already have! That thing has such a sweetheart of a picture, emminently loveable, and more flattering to shading of those old games' graphics. Rich colours, balanced and tight just enough without falling into sterile territoty, and the 560 TVL count provides absolutely gorgeous grain and is certainly more than sharp enough to resolve those graphics. I say if you want a Trinitron, a good RGB consumer set is as good as it gets.

(I'll also include the Sony "Cube" PVM monitors (2030, 2530, 2950 and 3230. and if you're in Europe : 2130 and 2730). those things are damn sweet. not too high a TVL count at 450 to 600(beautiful grain) and have some bloom and look closer to TVs and arcade monitors. but ONLY consider them if you find one cheap. otherwise, go with a top-shelf consumer set, you'll be just as happy.

(Oh and don't spend $500 and up on CRTs. unless you're sure you want something sharper/more realistic colours than an arcade monitor, and there's none priced reasonably near you and you're hell bent on getting one.(for my money, I'd say : don't pay $500 and up for a crt full stop. But that's just me, you do what you want. we only live one life.)

The KV-25XBR is essentially a PVM-2530 in sheep's clothing. Except it's 15 pounds lighter (granted it does not have S-video tho). What a gem, I'm so happy I found a set that was barely used.

Sometimes it's when you try other stuff, that you realize how good you had it in the first place...
(I already loved the KV-25XBR. but now I'm head over heels with it!)
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:17 pm 


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FinalBaton wrote:
The KV-25XBR is essentially a PVM-2530 in sheep's clothing. Except it's 15 pounds lighter (granted it does not have S-video tho). What a gem, I'm so happy I found a set that was barely used.


I use my 2030 almost exclusively at this point. I have higher line count sets, but they don't look right to me. I think I would prefer the 25 if I was playing 2 player, but the 20 is perfect for sitting close by myself. I think maybe it's because the first set I bought on my own was a 20" sony. It wasn't top of the line, but it was awesome in 1994 with my SNES.

lol. I've actually got a VGA monitor with plenty of image stretching options, but I really want to play on the 2030. It's just got the look.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:16 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
FinalBaton wrote:
The KV-25XBR is essentially a PVM-2530 in sheep's clothing. Except it's 15 pounds lighter (granted it does not have S-video tho). What a gem, I'm so happy I found a set that was barely used.


I use my 2030 almost exclusively at this point. I have higher line count sets, but they don't look right to me. I think I would prefer the 25 if I was playing 2 player, but the 20 is perfect for sitting close by myself. I think maybe it's because the first set I bought on my own was a 20" sony. It wasn't top of the line, but it was awesome in 1994 with my SNES.

lol. I've actually got a VGA monitor with plenty of image stretching options, but I really want to play on the 2030. It's just got the look.

if those ugly high TVL sets are taking too much space up around your house I'd be happy to swing by and dispose of them safely for you


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:01 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
2030

an absolute stunner! the ultimate classic Trinitron look. Enjoy yours!

we had a non-flat Trinitron at home when I was a teen in mid-late '90s, which probably had around 500 TVL or so, and that's why that look is so dear to me I think.
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:17 am 



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FinalBaton wrote:
On another note, dabbling with higher end PVM monitors recently, only strenghtened my love for the RGB consumer set I already have! That thing has such a sweetheart of a picture, emminently loveable, and more flattering to shading of those old games' graphics. Rich colours, balanced and tight just enough without falling into sterile territoty, and the 560 TVL count provides absolutely gorgeous grain and is certainly more than sharp enough to resolve those graphics. I say if you want a Trinitron, a good RGB consumer set is as good as it gets.



FinalBaton wrote:
we had a non-flat Trinitron at home when I was a teen in mid-late '90s, which probably had around 500 TVL or so, and that's why that look is so dear to me I think.



Consumer sets are usually nowhere near 500 TVL, even the highest-end ones. There are some exceptions, but sadly the 25XBR isn't one of them. Sony itself mentions '400 lines horizontal resolution' in their consumer brochure. Usually when manufacturers use terms like this they're talking about the TOTAL number of lines left-to right. When we convert that to TV Lines, which is defined as the number of lines the same height as the 4:3 set, you're looking at three-quarters that number which would be 300 TV Lines.

It is true this set (and it's sister model the KV-25DXR which I have) uses the same model number tube as the PVM-2530, and that PVM is rated at 560 'TV Lines', but there is something going on otherwise (which we touched upon in the previous page) where the tube itself isn't what solely dictates the TV Lines, which has to be why the brochure, user guides, and service manuals for both of these differ (and quite drastically in this case).


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:32 am 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
FinalBaton wrote:
Consumer sets are usually nowhere near 500 TVL, even the highest-end ones.


I very much doubt that. JVC D-Series sets have a pretty fine pitch and reach 800 lines or horizontal resolution. so a good 600 TVL. Later Sony sets reach that number too.

I don't doubt that the 25XBR could resolve a black and white TVL test pattern as well as a PVM-2530

most older consumer sets were around 400 TVL max, yes. but higher end ones and later ones reached higher than that. The newer Sony and JVC consumer sets have no problem hitting 600 TVL.
But that didn't make them equal to pro monitor still : those ones had better contrast and color accuracy.

I've had a PVM-2030 in my possession. To my eyes, it's picture is extremely similar to that of the XBR. The XBR is like 95% there.



But either way, the main focus of my post was to say : top-shelf Sony RGB consumer sets and Cube PVMs are awesome and the best look for retro games on a Trinitron IMHO.
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:03 am 



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FinalBaton wrote:
I very much doubt that. JVC D-Series sets have a pretty fine pitch and reach 800 lines or horizontal resolution. so a good 600 TVL. Later Sony sets reach that number too.


I really wish my search-fu was working tonight so I could link you to some of my posts about JVC and their inflated numbers (and I didn't have to re-write a wall of text lol)... but it goes something like this: Basically, JVC in particular is guilty of marketing mumbo-jumbo (i.e. kinda blatant false advertising) back in the day. You can give a read to some of the archived posts if you want to learn more (AVSforum would be a good start - think they archive all their older posts).

Just to show some of the various logic behind this: if the above were true their $350ish consumer TV's, in a WAY bigger sizer, would be absolutely stomping (in this regard) their professional monitors which cost ~5 times more - so that simply doesn't make logical sense - that's clue #1. If we switch over to even something like some of their larger professional presentation monitors (which fyi their pro lines make this comparison easier because they're measured in actual proper TVL fyi, not 'horizontal resolution'...the latter was a marketing ploy to make them seem like they had better specs than they did), and if we take a look at models in a size more in-line with a common/regular consumer TV, say like a 27" in the 90's or whatever, you'll see that even those PROFESSIONAL models didn't even have as many TV Lines as they advertised on their consumer sets! That's weird right? Like that doesn't make any sense.... so again, the only logical conclusion is there's something fishy about those marketing claims on their consumer TV's. Oh, the dot pitch of those presentation-type monitors is also still pretty large – the one I looked at was around 0.79.

Last point just to prove this point a little more: dot pitch is directly related to how bright a TV looks. Although I'm sure it sounds awesome to have a ~27-36" consumer TV with a million TV Lines, in realistic home viewing scenarios you do NOT want this. The TV would be dim. It would be washed out on a sunny day, hell, even on a cloudy day with the shades open you might have some issues. This is also why when you actually do start getting into the super high TV Lines, like BVM's and such, with their very small dot pitch and high TVL count, that they need to be viewed in a much darker more dimly lit room to show a vibrant, robust, and accurate image - that simply wouldn't fly in the average home.

Anyway, if we want to end by switching over to Sony, this is why even larger pro CRT's like a PVM-3230 for example has a HUGE dot pitch of 0.90mm...and is only 650 TV Lines. Those big boys were meant to fit into more of the presentation monitor role so they needed to be bright and work in brightly lit offices and such (hell, I got mine from a regular guy who bought it new for his living room...so again, nice and bright for home use even!).

Even if we switch over to the later HD 1080i consumer sets (ok, 540p, but you know what I mean) with Super Fine Pitch tubes, those were only rated (and again we're talking 'advertising numbers' here) at 1440 lines across....and they were meant to show 1080i images which are 1920 across!!!....so again, even if we adjust for the total-lines to TVL's, that still on paper looks like a super high TVL count, and you sure as hell know that even a consumer 34XBR960 widescreen TV isn't touching with a 10-foot pole a BVM-D32 which had a MSRP of $40,000+ back in the day (the 34XBR960 is probably closer to my Panasonic 32" pro multiformat which is roughly 600-650 TVL...which actually I think some crazy guy on a FB group literally counted his and came up with something close to that lol).




FinalBaton wrote:
most older consumer sets were around 400 TVL max, yes. but higher end ones and later ones reached higher than that.


I'm sorry man, but didn't we just look at the Sony 25XBR brochure (I assume that 1985 model is the type of old you're talking about?), like their highest/fanciest-ever consumer model at that time, and it's only 300 TV Lines? And right in that same brochure it mentions how "most conventional TV"s are only 260 horizontal lines, or 195 TVL (like not even breaking 200 TV Lines back in 1985!!!), so saying 400 in my eyes isn't even in that same ballpark.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:11 am 



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FinalBaton wrote:
I very much doubt that. JVC D-Series sets have a pretty fine pitch and reach 800 lines or horizontal resolution. so a good 600 TVL. Later Sony sets reach that number too.

Dochartaigh wrote:
Anyway, if we want to end by switching over to Sony, this is why even larger pro CRT's like a PVM-3230 for example has a HUGE dot pitch of 0.90mm...and is only 650 TV Lines.


He's already made the conversion from JVC's "horizontal lines" to TVL, and it doesn't go against what you're saying. Or are you making the case that D-series sets didn't even have 600 TVL?

If the literature says it, I think it takes more than assumptions, however reasonable-sounding, to prove otherwise. Some kind of proper test would be nice. As a non-proper test, I can tell you that the 32" JVC AV-32320 from the early 2000s, which was advertised as having a 700-horizontal-line tube (some D-series sets use the same one), resolves high-resolution material from the Saturn quite nicely. That's 704 dots per line.

To me, it appears that what you paid for with a professional monitor wasn't just resolution; it was also high standards for geometry, convergence, and color conformity, among other things. After all, even relatively cheap computer monitors were fairly high-res by the late 90s.

I also have to say that I have a couple 900 TVL pro tubes, and they've never struck me as being dimmer than the 600 and 700 TVL tubes that are sitting nearby.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:51 am 



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SamIAm wrote:
He's already made the conversion from JVC's "horizontal lines" to TVL, and it doesn't go against what you're saying. Or are you making the case that D-series sets didn't even have 600 TVL?


Sorry for the confusion – I thought I was being clear by calling JVC's numbers false advertising. I'm saying the JVC's, even the ones marketed as 800 'horizontal lines' i.e. 600 TVL, are not 600 TVL at all. Like a pretty far cry from it (just as the high end Sony SD's are too). If I still had any of the multiple JVC D5XX series I've owned I would do another comparison like the below which I did a while ago to compare an unknown-TVL screen, to a known-TVL screen.

Image
(please keep in mind the above is in no way scientific proof of anything, just a way to somewhat compare two sets, roughly)




SamIAm wrote:
To me, it appears that what you paid for with a professional monitor wasn't just resolution; it was also high standards for geometry, convergence, and color conformity, among other things. After all, even relatively cheap computer monitors were fairly high-res by the late 90s.


I agree 100% without a doubt with you. I have only been talking about the TV Lines (and am only talking TV Lines because I commonly cringe when people start going into how consumer sets can have a bijillion of them too...then that mostly turns to citations about JVC CRT's which I believe to not be even remotely true.




SamIAm wrote:
I also have to say that I have a couple 900 TVL pro tubes, and they've never struck me as being dimmer than the 600 and 700 TVL tubes that are sitting nearby.

Are any of those 900 TVL pro tubes recently professionally calibrated? My latest BVM is already probably 2 or 3 years past the last pro calibration (unless you count a calibrated BKM-14L 'tuned-up' one more recently...which isn't exactly anywhere near 100% perfect to go by...those kinda stink for calibration), but the calibrated ones have always been less dim to my eyes. If I'm to be honest I usually jack them up (for color saturation as well - I like colors to pop, skin tones be damned!) myself because I like them to look a little more colorful like many consumer sets are (and if I've learned anything by selling TV's back in the day it's that they jacked up every one in the showroom lol as that equates to a better picture to people who don't know any better). Even between PVM models you can see a lot of people complaining on the forums/groups about the 20L5's not being as bright as 600 TVL M2's and such (again, a lot does have to do with calibration....lots of production places were using 20L5's in place of BVM's due to cost...but they at least kept them calibrated).


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:50 pm 



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Dochartaigh wrote:
It is true this set (and it's sister model the KV-25DXR which I have) uses the same model number tube as the PVM-2530, and that PVM is rated at 560 'TV Lines', but there is something going on otherwise (which we touched upon in the previous page) where the tube itself isn't what solely dictates the TV Lines, which has to be why the brochure, user guides, and service manuals for both of these differ (and quite drastically in this case).


With the CRT phosphor pitch and viewable screen size you can calculate the maximum possible amount of TV lines but in practice the actual amount the TV/monitor can resolve is inferior. The manual of the Panasonic BTM-1950Y says the tube could do 865 TVL but the monitor only does 750 because of the "frequency response" which is a bit vague but is obviously a feature of the electronics (aka chassis) that drive the tube:

https://i.imgur.com/nBD6WA0.jpg

Similarly, the maximum amount of TVL for the CRT of a BVM-D20F1U is easily calculated. The viewable screen diagonal is 490 mm (M49 tube) so width and height are 392 mm and 294 mm. The pitch at screen center is 0.3 mm. 392/0.3 x 0.75 (or more simply 294/0.3) = 980 TVL. But the actual specs published by Sony say 900 TVL. The difference is comparable to that of the Panasonic above.
https://i.imgur.com/vzRgPcj.jpg

For TV tubes similar estimates can be done. For instance a 20" (19" viewable) tube for TVs has a screen width = 404 mm and height = 304 mm and a phosphor pitch = 0.82 mm (data taken from actual CRT datasheets). This gives 370 TVL as the maximum theoretical amount. We can expect this to be no more than 300 TVL when the tube is driven by a TV chassis.
For a 29" (27" viewable) TV tube (A68) we have: screen width = 540 mm, height = 405 mm, pitch = 0.80 mm. TVL = 506. Actual TVL probably in the 500 range.
https://i.imgur.com/6h6NO8T.jpg

A 38" (36" viewable) CRT for high resolution (VGA/SVGA) monitors:
https://i.imgur.com/6ZpYbWP.jpg
541/0.78 = 693 TVL. Actual 600 TVL?
Note that this is not a TV tube. I don't have a datasheet for a TV tube of the same size (A90) but I have one of an A80 tube:
https://i.imgur.com/U4LRmGO.jpg
489/0.9 = 543 TVL
A 36" viewable tube for TVs (what you find in a 36" JVC D series) will have a phosphor stripe pitch similar if not identical to that of the A80 tube, i.e. 0.90 mm hence such a tube will have a 541/0.9 = 601 TVL. Expected actual TVL: around 500.
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:54 pm 



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MKL wrote:
With the CRT phosphor pitch and viewable screen size you can calculate the maximum possible amount of TV lines but in practice the actual amount the TV/monitor can resolve is inferior.


Thank you for doing all those calculations! What always throws me off is when the spec sheet says things like "pitch at the centre of the tube"...and for the JVC's in particular (at least the 3ish 'coveted' D5XX series models I searched out, and even some friends/acquaintances have) are SUPER, and I mean crazy different at the center vs. the edges. All mine were very blurry on the outside (and like not even only the far edges or anything...), tweaking focus and adjusting yoke did nothing. Seems like it was just a string of bad luck, but it kinda blew my mind people like these (or I'm just too used to the Sony's...even when some aren't as great geometry-wise). This is also another reason why I think the JVC's are even less than their spec sheets can be calculated as (well, center they could be dead-on...overall...not so much in my experience).

Even the coveted BVM D24 and D32 have ~12% variance from center to edge with the pitch! (and I'll bet even my D20 does something similar, although probably to a smaller effect, and the specs say nothing about those doing this).




MKL wrote:
The manual of the Panasonic BTM-1950Y says the tube could do 865 TVL but the monitor only does 750 because of the "frequency response" which is a bit vague but is obviously a feature of the electronics (aka chassis) that drive the tube

While we're mainly talking about JVC's, that Panasonic you mentioned is actually a JVC inside lol (I had a brand NIB one) and they're super sharp. But this is that exact mystery we're been talking about in this topic recently! I would love to know what exactly causes this...as somebody said a page back (and I totally agree with), this goes against everything we comprehend with how the grilles/masks are made and how TVL are calculated.

Even that 25XBR we've been talking about, jumping from 300 TVL in the consumer model to 560!!! in the professional, with the same exact tube seems like it's very extreme in my eyes - that's a crazy difference!




Anyway, do you have any tips in pulling up tube spec sheets? You did an awesome job with the ones you quoted. I've been looking for the M68 (exactly the M68LNH050X) tube of the 27" FV310 forever! Seems like Sony doesn't advertise the aperture grille pitch for their models in any easily found way. Always been trying to find out about what TVL these sets are (I should literally just break down and count manually from one of the 3 I have...but it's so hard to keep track of where you're counting...and it's tiny!)


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:20 pm 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
Are any of those 900 TVL pro tubes recently professionally calibrated?


I was thinking the same thing. I have a 20" 1600x1200 Sony PC monitor from the early 2000s. It can crank up the brighness, but doing so blows out the image and comes at the expense of clarity. At lower resolution modes, it matters a lot less, but it's still pretty obvious the effect has on running a color meter calibration on it. (dimmer)

Also, I wanted to add to what was already said. The 2030/2530 have a much higher frequency response because they are actual CGA monitors capable of producing stable progressive images with resolutions of up to 640x200. As such, they have to be able to produce sharp text on the screen. If you have any doubts about whether or not the circuitry in the CRT plays a big role in the final resolution, just try to display 8 point text on a Sony consumer CRT from the mid 90s. Not going to be readable. I use my 2030 for that all the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:31 pm 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
I'm sorry man, but didn't we just look at the Sony 25XBR brochure (I assume that 1985 model is the type of old you're talking about?), like their highest/fanciest-ever consumer model at that time, and it's only 300 TV Lines?


300 TV lines over an RF signal. Note that the same brochure states that it can resolve a 640x200 pixels picture over RGB. Which granted is across the whole screen (4x3) and not just an area as wide as the screen's height. That would make it 480 rows of pixels resolved over the center 3x3 area. Pretty good, and good food for thoughts.

But even if it's 300 TVL : I don't care. The thing looks gorgeous. It has a really NICE pitch and clarity for these old games. very flattering for these graphics

I've never been hung up on TVL figures (which was the point of my OP). 15kHz Arcade monitors are probably not very high TVL capable and yet they look absolutely dynamite for old games!

vol.2 wrote:
I was thinking the same thing. I have a 20" 1600x1200 Sony PC monitor from the early 2000s. It can crank up the brighness, but doing so blows out the image and comes at the expense of clarity. At lower resolution modes, it matters a lot less, but it's still pretty obvious the effect has on running a color meter calibration on it. (dimmer)

Also, I wanted to add to what was already said. The 2030/2530 have a much higher frequency response because they are actual CGA monitors capable of producing stable progressive images with resolutions of up to 640x200. As such, they have to be able to produce sharp text on the screen. If you have any doubts about whether or not the circuitry in the CRT plays a big role in the final resolution, just try to display 8 point text on a Sony consumer CRT from the mid 90s. Not going to be readable. I use my 2030 for that all the time.


I'm looking for another CRT for a second setup and if I ever find a cheap Cube PVM I'd love to add it to my stable. Might happen actually as I've been in talks regarding a trade for several weeks now...

Your talk of CGA reminds me that last week I stumbled upon a monitor line from Sony I didn't know about : the GVM line. It supports CGA, but also VGA, which is interesting. 15 to 36kHz.
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/24275 ... e=3#manual
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Last edited by FinalBaton on Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:15 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:07 pm 



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Dochartaigh wrote:
Even that 25XBR we've been talking about, jumping from 300 TVL in the consumer model to 560!!! in the professional, with the same exact tube seems like it's very extreme in my eyes - that's a crazy difference!


The PVM 2730 is rated 420 lines. The CRT in it has a 640 mm diagonal so the screen height should be 384 mm. Pitch is 0.73 mm so we have 384/0.73 = 526 TVL. Hence an actual count which is about 100 lines inferior seems in accordance with the other calculations above. It's the alleged 560 TVL of the PVM 2530 that doesn't sound right.

Dochartaigh wrote:
Anyway, do you have any tips in pulling up tube spec sheets? You did an awesome job with the ones you quoted. I've been looking for the M68 (exactly the M68LNH050X) tube of the 27" FV310 forever! Seems like Sony doesn't advertise the aperture grille pitch for their models in any easily found way. Always been trying to find out about what TVL these sets are (I should literally just break down and count manually from one of the 3 I have...but it's so hard to keep track of where you're counting...and it's tiny!)


I don't think that datasheet of Sony CRTs will ever surface. As regards the stripe pitch, it should be possible to do fairly accurate measurements by breaking the tube and going directly on the phosphor layer. I did it with a mask tube and the measurement was in accordance with known specs. The problem is that the phosphor layer is so weak that it's easily wiped away when you touch it.
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:54 pm 


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It's quite obvious that there must be factors other than the dot/stripe pitch coming into play in determining the TVL count - black and white CRTs didn't have an infinite resolving power after all :)

Intuitively, it's easy to understand why the spot size and beam focus play a role, but if anyone wants to delve into the technicalities that are involved in this regard (see here or here), you better be an engineer - I gave up instantly ^^

This page here though is more approachable (caveat: it's from a 1984 paper), as is this discussion..


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:43 am 



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Location: Bremen GERMANY
I have to devide between a HANTAREX MGG28 and BARCO CVM2070, how does the HANTAREX compares to the BARCO?

https://www.theblock.art/equipment/hantarex-eq3-28/
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:23 am 



Joined: 01 Jul 2016
Posts: 59
St4rwalker wrote:
I have to devide between a HANTAREX MGG28 and BARCO CVM2070, how does the HANTAREX compares to the BARCO?

https://www.theblock.art/equipment/hantarex-eq3-28/
Well, I don't know much about any of these, but I own a Barco CVM 3237 (14" 800 TVL ) and it's quite amaizing. It has a circuit that automatically adjusts geometry and convergence so they are perfect! It's the best I've seen on any other pro monitor I ever had, and I've had a lot of monitors.
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:08 am 



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On the other hand: Barco is notorious for not having any documentation available, whereas there's a service manual available for the Hantarex. So if something breaks you'd have a chance of actually repairing the monitor (or having it repaired). Also, the Hantarex is bigger, has Scart and seems overall much easier to work on.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:48 am 



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SuperSpongo wrote:
On the other hand: Barco is notorious for not having any documentation available, whereas there's a service manual available for the Hantarex. So if something breaks you'd have a chance of actually repairing the monitor (or having it repaired). Also, the Hantarex is bigger, has Scart and seems overall much easier to work on.


Thanks! I have a CRT Geek Technician who repairs them BLIND for me if nessecary ;)

I think i will go for the BARCO then :):):) 280€ shipped on palet :D
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:11 am 



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How much is the Hantarex? I'd still go for that one if I were you. You WILL run into problems or questions and it's not a good thing if you only get three google hits when searching for your monitor. I tried contacting Barco for documentation before and they replied they didn't have anything CRT related anymore.
But if you go for the Barco, ask the previous owner if he can prodive any sort of user manual and if the passwords are known / disabled.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:56 am 



Joined: 22 Dec 2019
Posts: 3
I invested in a JVC DT-V1710 and it was great until i tried to adjust some geometry in the Service Menu under the Deflection Block menu. This was mainly vertical and horizontal size, position, v linearity, etc. After i adjusted this red bar started to appear on the right of the screen (CMVS neo geo input) with ghosting to the left of images with a light band. I tried resetting and adjusting the settings in the Deflection menu, resetting them, but the issue remains. It was perfect before :(

Does anyone know what caused this specifically and is it fixable?

Sorry, not sure how to upload images here so link to Reddit picture:
https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... urce=share


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:41 am 



Joined: 14 Jan 2016
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Location: Bremen GERMANY
SuperSpongo wrote:
How much is the Hantarex? I'd still go for that one if I were you. You WILL run into problems or questions and it's not a good thing if you only get three google hits when searching for your monitor. I tried contacting Barco for documentation before and they replied they didn't have anything CRT related anymore.
But if you go for the Barco, ask the previous owner if he can prodive any sort of user manual and if the passwords are known / disabled.


I bought neither, but hey guess whats inside :mrgreen: :

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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:47 am 


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Location: Italy
A batch of sauerkraut jars


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:34 pm 



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Xer Xian wrote:
A batch of sauerkraut jars


almost :lol:

Two as new Sony PVM 2950QM monitors including remotes in custom made flightcases.
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:30 pm 


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Lucky! especially the "as new" part.

Enjoy it, it really is a "sweet-spot" monitor that makes all generations of retro games look good.

(we'll expect pictures of course :mrgreen: )
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:47 pm 



Joined: 14 Jan 2016
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Location: Bremen GERMANY
Not yet arrived...

One for tate shmups other for yoko fighting, rpgs the like...



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