4th Annual Top 25 Shumps of All Time! - Results

[louisg]

No, it really isn't. No aspect of that game stands out.

Here's what stands out:
- Well-paced and varied level design
- You don't go back when you die like most horizontals with similarly good level design (more preference than anything)
- Lots of weapons good for different situations
- The game balance errs in favor of the player-- there are no situations where you might as well just restart if you die
- Jammin' tunes
- Varied bosses-- not just cores =)

You might also try Thunderforce AC, which is a remix of 3 that features levels (I think?) from 2.. it's a bit more challenging as well. If you compare Thunderforce 3 to any game that's similar, you'll find it's done better than most.

[Rob]

I think you're replying to Stuart. I was talking about Aero Blasters.

[Eps]

I have to confess, though I like Mars Matrix, I feel it is something of an injustice to the great R-Type to have MM placed above it -- bearing in mind that I actually generally prefer verts. MM is an excellent game, but isn't deserving of quite so high a place IMO. Of course, I didn't even vote, so I'm like those people that complain about the election result but didn't vote in it

[professor ganson]

I have to confess, though I like Mars Matrix, I feel it is something of an injustice to the great R-Type to have MM placed above it -- bearing in mind that I actually generally prefer verts. MM is an excellent game, but isn't deserving of quite so high a place IMO. Of course, I didn't even vote, so I'm like those people that complain about the election result but didn't vote in it

If your point were that R-Type doesn't get enough credit, I'd agree. But it seems like you're saying that MM gets too much credit. There I'd have to disagree. It's a classic on the level of R-Type, imo. Unlike Mushi, MM will be on the list for the foreseeable future.

[louisg]

I think you're replying to Stuart. I was talking about Aero Blasters.

Whoops!

Either way, it makes a case for TF3

[Rob]

I feel it is something of an injustice to the great R-Type to have MM placed above it

Just watch this replay and tell me R-Type has levels as full of gameplay detail. It doesn't and the games are very different. Go pick on something half as good.

And isn't 7th high enough for that game??

[Turrican]

There are games I don't like, but understand other people liking.

Like Turrican games, Stuart?

TF III is ace. I still play it and it definitely deserves its votes for much more than simple nostalgia effect. Come on, it was an home developed product so good that it was granted an arcade conversion... It used genesis at its best for the time, and sure a big leap for the series. It's technically flawless, and on a gameplay level it packs you with some serious weaponry - yeah, this made it a little easier than most, but it's comprehensible.
Sure, Rob does have a point saying that TF III gets votes as a symbol of a whole shmup category, that nowadays is sadly overshadowed (the, you know, "let's make a shmup for an home system that doesn't involve a gazillion of pink bullets and a vertical screen" category), but even so, it's a well chosen symbol.

Glad to see you on the forums again - hey, you're writing a Gradius article for the next issue of Retro Gamer, right? I hope to get that one soon.

[professor ganson]

And isn't 7th high enough for that game??

Wow, I hadn't noticed that R-Type broke into the top 10. That's an impressive move upward. I wouldn't/didn't put it in my top 10, but then I don't put too much weight on influence/popularity. If you weigh these factors in, then 7 makes sense.

[Bydobasher]

Next time this happens, can I save up all my votes and use them as negative points for the Thunderforce games? Truly they are the shittest shmups in Shmuptown, and people's reverence for them staggers me endlessly.

Hahahaha... Get the fuck off this forum, seriously. You just committed blasphemy.

That's a little harsh FraGMarE.

In the Reverend's defense, I am as old-school as anyone here and I have never really "gotten" TFIII. Okay, it was wild when a buddy of mine brought the cartridge home in 1990 and we were playing this incredible looking game in his living room! Wow! We'd never seen graphics like that outside of an arcade. And the weapons were unbelievable -- still are, in fact. It was also very easy to pick up and play. That's all good.

It was also (too) easy to finish, and the music has never really worked for me, although I know it has its fans. As a result, my feelings for TFIII have always been a bit mixed, although it's a fun game and I can understand its appeal. (Like the Reverend though, I have always enjoyed Air Buster more.)

[Eps]

I wouldn't/didn't put it in my top 10, but then I don't put too much weight on influence/popularity.

That's exactly how I feel about Mars Matrix; I think on this particular forum, it definitely carries a lot of weight in the influence/popularity stakes. I do see why everyone else likes it so much, but I'm afraid I, er, 'merely' like it only 'quite a lot'! This may be an unfashionable opinion, but I don't really care; I base my gaming on what I enjoy playing, not on what other people enjoy

[Shatterhand]

I am not a big fan of Mars Matrix , I think Gigawing is a more fun game to play

[louisg]

I am not a big fan of Mars Matrix , I think Gigawing is a more fun game to play

Hmm yeah sometimes I have a hard time deciding. MM is super intense and really does take the shield mechanic and give it more depth, but GigaWing is such a fun (relatively) laid back play =)

(hums the MM st4 tune)

[bVork]

I am not a big fan of Mars Matrix , I think Gigawing is a more fun game to play

Hmm yeah sometimes I have a hard time deciding. MM is super intense and really does take the shield mechanic and give it more depth, but GigaWing is such a fun (relatively) laid back play =)

(hums the MM st4 tune)

I think it just takes a while to understand Mars Matrix, while Gigawing is easily understood after one or two games. I voted for Gigawing but not Mars Matrix in this year's poll and plan on reversing that in my vote next year, as I finally 'get' MM's previously aggravating one-button gameplay. I think MM's partial reflection mechanic is more interesting and far deeper than GW's 'digital' reflection (where you either use the full reflection bar or don't reflect at all, with no in-between), but GW's mechanic is definitely easier to grasp.

I certainly don't mean to imply that Gigawing is a bad game (hey, I DID vote for it this year), but I think Mars Matrix trounces it in depth (and thus replayability).

[Keranu]

And once again... the results are lame as fuck.

Big surprise there.

Haha, you rock.

[howmuchkeefe]

Maybe MM gets better when things get so busy that you don't notice the utterly uninspired enemy designs? I really can't stand the aesthetics of the game.

...not that MM doesn't have good level design or ingenious mechanics, but that its hard to notice these since the game is so butt-ass ugly. A quote from Pulp Fiction would seem to apply, here: "Mars Matrix may play like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't play the filthy motherfucker."

Mars Matrix would kick so much ass if all that prerendered stuff were replaced with charming sprites and enhanced with a healthy dose of animation... you know, make it look more like a Cave game.

[ST Dragon]

Excellent work Zach Keene and Turrican for his cool chart & quotes!

It would be interesting to see the whole list of the 336 shooters, in alphabetical order with their earned score values.

I see that DonDonPachi has won again.
It is the best manic / bullet storm vert shooter, with the most powerful, devastating firepower to ever grace the monitor cathode ray-tube, but I just can’t accept it as the King of shooters.

It’s interesting that the shooters placed in the next 3 positions are all developed by Treasure.

I don’t know but something just doesn’t look right, Mars Matrix in 5th place?!
Come on guys what were you thinking? I don’t understand what people find so special about this game? No seriously, it’s just an average vertical shooter, with an irritating weapon system and not nearly powerful enough.

I’m happy to see Mushihimesa in the list. Unlike the views of some other members, I find Mushi, with its incredible hand-drawn graphics, catchy soundtrack (Especially the Boss music, perfectly suited for a battles against gigantic bug Bosses!) & cool gameplay, to be one of the pinnacles of the shooting realm!

I’m unhappy with the fact that Thunder Force V didn’t make it into the list. It’s a shame really that the Guardian’s Mechanical armies remained in the shadow for this year.

You need to spend some time with them to appreciate them, TFV is great once you've got to grips with changing speed and weapons and number 4 is cool too once you get over the difficulty factor.

I don't hate them for being hard, man. I hate them for being dull, ugly and soulless rubbish. There are games I don't like, but understand other people liking. The Thunderforces, on the other hand, are a constant bafflement. That dedicated shmup fans could place them above classics like Raiden DX, Gradius Gaiden and Giga Wing is nothing short of astounding. (If you like stuff that resembles TF3, say, then Aero Blasters is 10 times better.) I can only attribute it to nostalgia.

Aero Blasters better than the Thunder Force series?! Holy Cow!!
Savage! That’s sacrilege!
You’ll burn in the fiery pits of shooting Hell and be tormented there for all of Eternity, with no polarity shield or Raiden’s Thermo Nuclear Bombs!

Then again, Guwange made it back too, so all those Untold Legions of Evil Unthinking Rabid Intolerant Cave Fanboys have apparently unleashed their unbridled fury as well.

That’s poetry!

No, it really isn't. No aspect of that game stands out.

Here's what stands out:
- Well-paced and varied level design
- You don't go back when you die like most horizontals with similarly good level design (more preference than anything)
- Lots of weapons good for different situations
- The game balance errs in favor of the player-- there are no situations where you might as well just restart if you die
- Jammin' tunes
- Varied bosses-- not just cores =)

You might also try Thunderforce AC, which is a remix of 3 that features levels (I think?) from 2.. it's a bit more challenging as well. If you compare Thunderforce 3 to any game that's similar, you'll find it's done better than most.

Some excellent points there louisg, couldn’t have expressed them better!
Yes, Thunder Force AC combines levels & elements from both TFII & TFIII and is also available for the SNES under the title “Thunder Spirits”. It suffers from some pretty heavy slowdowns however.

[Rob]

Come on guys what were you thinking? I don’t understand what people find so special about this game? No seriously, it’s just an average vertical shooter, with an irritating weapon system and not nearly powerful enough.

The weapons are powerful enough. Please read the instruction manual and try again.

[raiden]

Come on guys what were you thinking? I don’t understand what people find so special about this game? No seriously, it’s just an average vertical shooter, with an irritating weapon system and not nearly powerful enough.

The weapons are powerful enough. Please read the instruction manual and try again.

*lol* such a subtle way to make a point.

[Rob]

Thanks.

It made me imagine ST Dragon playing the game 1-2 times with a level 1-3 main shot and not using anything else. The reflect and piercing weapon are enough to clear the game on their own. The main shot can be devastating as well, especially the wide shot (ship type 1), which rivals DDP's type c ship.

Yeah, MM takes some effort to play. That's why ST Dragon doesn't get it. <-- tact

[Eps]

Despite my above comments re: Mars Matrix, I don't find the control system or weapons a problem at all. I love the piercing shot; it's an awesome little weapon.

[FraGMarE]

Come on guys what were you thinking? I don’t understand what people find so special about this game? No seriously, it’s just an average vertical shooter, with an irritating weapon system and not nearly powerful enough.

The weapons are powerful enough. Please read the instruction manual and try again.

WARNING!! A HUGE ARGUMENT 'FLAME WAR' IS APPROACHING FAST! BE ON YOUR GUARD.

[Rob]

Not going to happen.

[llabnip]

Yeah, MM takes some effort to play. That's why ST Dragon doesn't get it. <-- tact

I still don't 'get' Mars Matrix. I want to like it but just can't get into it. Maybe it's this effort you mention that prevents me from enjoying it fully. This is one of the 3 games that I don't quite enjoy but I've seen lots of praise for by people I respect... so I decided to give each one of these 20 hours of dedicated play-time to see if there was any spark. The other two were Battle Garegga and Twinkle Star Sprites. Of the three games, only Twinkle Star Sprites grew on me and has now become a favorite... For Mars Matrix and Battle Garegga, I think I gained an appreciation for the games but neither is particuarly fun for me to play.

[ST Dragon]

Thanks.

It made me imagine ST Dragon playing the game 1-2 times with a level 1-3 main shot and not using anything else. The reflect and piercing weapon are enough to clear the game on their own. The main shot can be devastating as well, especially the wide shot (ship type 1), which rivals DDP's type c ship.

Yeah, MM takes some effort to play. That's why ST Dragon doesn't get it. <-- tact

hahaha, this said by someone who voted for Bio Metal, Divine Sealing & Millipede.

Come on guys what were you thinking? I don’t understand what people find so special about this game? No seriously, it’s just an average vertical shooter, with an irritating weapon system and not nearly powerful enough.

The weapons are powerful enough. Please read the instruction manual and try again.

*lol* such a subtle way to make a point.

I guess, a more fitting word for the subject would be “piercing”

Come on guys what were you thinking? I don’t understand what people find so special about this game? No seriously, it’s just an average vertical shooter, with an irritating weapon system and not nearly powerful enough.

The weapons are powerful enough. Please read the instruction manual and try again.

WARNING!! A HUGE ARGUMENT 'FLAME WAR' IS APPROACHING FAST! BE ON YOUR GUARD.

It’s nice to see that everything maintains its Shmuping values in this forum!

[Dandy J]

Other than the obvious reasons (weapons/scoring/reflect system), I like Mars Matrix because it is the most vicious and punishing shooter imo (which the reflect system allows it to be). Whenever I play it, I feel like the guys at Takumi want me to die, like every pattern is designed from the ground up to kill me. Not to provide curtain fire, not to allow me to herd bullets, not to limit my movement, not to keep me on my toes, but to hit my ship and make me die.

Developer A, producing [insert shooter here]: "Here let me use this bullet pattern, it's pretty tricky and takes some experience to dodge."

Takumi, developing Mars Matrix: "Dodge this, asshole."

Mars Matrix simply does not fuck around.

[FraGMarE]

It’s nice to see that everything maintains its Shmuping values in this forum!

Hey, I'd like to think my light-hearted mocking and razzing might actually be able to avert a flame war. I believe in the power of laughter!

[Rob]

I still don't 'get' Mars Matrix.

Getting it is knowing how to use the various weapons, chaining/leveling up, etc. Knowing that it's not random patterns, what the cubes are for, etc. ProTip stuff.

Hey, I'd like to think my light-hearted mocking and razzing might actually be able to avert a flame war.

Nope, you jumped the gun.

*takes out popcorn*

[howmuchkeefe]

Yeah, she's fat. Wicked fat. And ugly. But you know, you wouldn't believe what she can do in the bed-

YES I KNOW ABOUT THE GODDAM WARTS ALREADY.

...as I was saying, she might not be much to look at, but damn-

OKOK SHE ALSO SMELLS BAD! OUTRAGE! You know what? I give up. You guys are just too shallow, too child-

SHE. CAN'T. AFFORD. BRACES. So help me god, I will beat the next person who-

Ass pimples? ASS PIMPLES!!

*attacks critics*

all in good fun

[dai jou bu]

Takumi, developing Mars Matrix: "Dodge this, asshole."

Mars Matrix simply does not fuck around.

Yeah, very rarely do the bullet patterns leave holes in them for you to actually maneuver through, which is more believable than somone with too much time on their hands creating a machine/developing bullet-hell techniques that, while they're pretty to look at, don't seem to do the job of KILLING YOU EFFICIENTLY (it's either this or have enemies coming from all directions trying to kill you while the environment itself poses a significant threat). That's why it's one of the few maniac shmups I actually don't mind playing. It's also one of the few examples of where a game with poor visuals and (to me, at least) crappy music can still be good if the game plays well.

I really don't have much to add here, other than being amused at the Cave bashing/defense going on earlier in this thread.

Edit: Nevermind, I found something.

It is the best manic / bullet storm vert shooter, with the most powerful, devastating firepower to ever grace the monitor cathode ray-tube,

Most devestating firepower? Have you seen G.Darius? You can take over anything that's not a boss or covered in gold plating, then make them self-destruct to cover a good portion of the screen to protect yourself. Oh yeah, and those Alpha Beams are nice too.

[Shatterhand]

hahaha, this said by someone who voted for Bio Metal, Divine Sealing & Millipede.

Rob, you are screwed from now on. You just won't be able to argue or disagree with anyone here EVER MORE.