PC VGA to RGBs not working, need input

[Y_B_A_FOOL]

Hello! I recently RGB modded my KV-36FS100 following this guide: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=63622&start=78

The mod seems to be working fine as my other inputs are still working just fine and the OSD is still working.

OSD picture:

Spoiler

My goal is to get the lowest latency 240p signal I can from a PC for a Launchbox arcade cabinet I'm building. I figured I would be able to convert RGBHV to RGBs without too much hassle, but I'm hitting a roadblock from a lack of experience and knowledge on the matter. I'm have created a cable going from the VGA port on my 770m powered laptop that includes this converter I created.

Picture of board:

Spoiler

Schematic:

Spoiler

Besides the H/Vsync to Csync circuit the other dodads are just 75ohm pull-up resistors on the circuit. It seems to be working but I have not been able to get an image that was usable out of the TV. I thought maybe the circuit I have made was the issue, so I also tried just using 1k ohm resistors to merge the signals and got the same result. This was the best image I could get 640x480 interlaced using auto timings via CRU.

Picture:

Spoiler

Short Video: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yVvxn ... FPYthzNVuH

The image flickers like crazy but it's not picked up in the video. Nothing is lined up leaving me with my sync issue and trying to find the best option for my build here. Any other custom resolution I have tried is just a broken image completely out of sync. I was trying not to build a PC for the cabinet, but if this sync issue can't be adress I'm willing to make a PC for the project. Which leaves me with some questions going with that route.

Questions/options using CRT_emudriver2.0:
1. Will this easily output the Csync I need?
2. The system has to run PS2 and Wii games so I can't be using a 6-7 generation old ATI card. I've seen CRT emu driver 2.0 has an update for newer hardware RX Vega (I have on available). Is running such a new GPU going to add a bunch of latency? I assume you need a Display Port to VGA adaptor...
3. I can get a 290x, it seems to be the strongest GPU that still has DVI-I and should be able to meet my platform goals
4. Can the Udoo Bolt output RGB from the pins it has available and work with the drivers? The 2200g is under the supported devices, seems like an interesting option. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ud ... -next-leve

I'm desperate to move onto the next stage of my project, thanks for any input in advance.

Edit Notes: fixed image links

[buttersoft]

Gee, that’s a lot of information, and remote diagnosis is always a pain, but let’s give it a shot

The fact you can get stable image at 480i means you probably are getting 15kHz from your GPU. Try putting a multimeter on the Hsync line (or even the c-sync line) and you should see 15kHz. If not, you have a problem. (Will that TV sync to 31kHz?) Interlaced modes always flicker, and the lower FPS and lower res the more visibly so, so we’ll leave that part aside for now.

You’re saying you cannot get stable image from a 240p signal, but what happens when you try? Is the picture somewhat clear but rolling vertically, even really fast? Is it a mess of static or jagged bits of horizontal lines? When you do the same multimeter tests as above, do you read 15kHz horizontal and 60Hz vertical?

Where did that sync combiner come from, what is it designed to connect to what? What are the pullup resistors doing, what are they connected to, why did you add them? If they’re on the sync lines, try removing them. Is the circuit dependent on sync polarity, and have you tried flipping it for 240p alone? If that doesn’t work, I would remove your combiner, set both sync polarities to negative and try a 500R resistor and 1k potentiometer in each line, and then merge the lines into your sync input. Leave the h-sync pot on zero to start, and go from there. If you get stable image, go back to 480i and keep adding resistors, starting with the c-sync line and next the v-sync line, and finally h-sync, then go again. The idea being to get as much resistance in there as you can, all the time watching what it does to the flicker. Probably nothing on a newer set, but older Sonys are nice and sensitive to this.

If all this fails, I’d grab the cheapest Radeon HD 5450 I could find and test that next, with crt_emudriver 2.0. You can upgrade to something more powerful later. The CPU matters too, remember.

DO NOT buy an APU for crt_emudriver, or any processor with an integrated GPU. They’re on the compatibility lists, but the only reports are unsuccessful so far. IIRC Calamity has no idea why, but if anyone can come up with a fix he will. Do not buy any card without an analog output for crt_emudriver, as using a whatever-to-VGA converter can be problematic even before you get to c-sync issues. DVI-I is fine, obviously, but not DVI-D. And remember to research ATOM15, also by Calamity, if you want to boot in 15kHz. A lot of the later Radeon cards that output analog video won’t work for Atom15. This might sound limiting, but I was playing Tekken 7 online on Windows 10 on an E8500 core2 duo and an HD 7870 at a stable 800x600@50i with the detail set high enough not to notice anything missing. I only upgraded to a first-gen i7 because when Windows decided to update I’d get framerate drops.

For more info, or more help and ideas if this lets you down, try the GroovyMAME subforum on Arcade Controls. That's the support forum for crt_emudriver and Atom15 as well.http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.p ... ,52.0.html

I’m a crt_emudriver fanboy, take that how you will. I know the theory behind getting 15kHz from Nvidia but have never been able to make it work. If you wouldn’t mind, I’d like to hear how you managed it, step by step

[BazookaBen]

I didn't read your whole post, because I've always used an RGB>Component transcoder since the resulting picture quality is identical. So I don't know anything about RGB mods.

But I did have stability issues with 15kHz coming directly out of my Radeon HD5450, so I stuck an extron in between, switched the Radeon back to separate H/V sync and used the composite sync from the Extron. Got perfectly stable picture.

[buttersoft]

That's cheating

[BazookaBen]

That's cheating

I couldn't figure out how to get it working without the Extron stabilizing the picture. There may be a way, but I had an extra Extron so it was an easy decision.

[mgerety]

The R9, 380x si the most powerful card you can get with DVI-I. I plan on buying one soon.

I did the mod you reference in your link.

On your board, there's a set of resistors that are tied together at both ends. That might be your issue. You should be putting a 1K resistor on each line (H/V Sync, then tying the tail ends of the 1k resistors together.. I don't know that connecting them at the beginning then adding the resistors will work. I think that's actually putting 2K resisance on the combined sync instead of 1k on each and combining. I'm not an electrical engineer by any means, so I don't know the effect of your changes.

Also, you tied them to ground, which I did not do. My mod uses a 1k resistor on each line, and with the far end of those resistors tied together. It worked perfectly.


HSync ------- 1k ------\______________ csync
VSync ------- 1k ------/

[BazookaBen]

The R9, 380x si the most powerful card you can get with DVI-I. I plan on buying one soon.

From AMD anyway. And the 280x does beat in a handful of games where memory bandwidth is more important.

If the OP is going to be playing PS2 and Wii, and he wants to run the games with ubershaders and supersampling and what not, then it might be worth it to go for something even newer, without VGA. Most HDMI and displayport converters don't have any lag. Unsure how well interlaced is supported on displayport though. On standard drivers I can't get interlaced on my hi-Hz CRT with displaport, the modes are just ignored, but on CRT Emu driver it might work.

[buttersoft]

It looks like a 4.7k and 2k resistor in parallel, so he's trying to make a 1.4k resistor, which is closest to...R2 on his schematic? I guess he can tell us

And the 380x would be great, but it won't work with Atom15. I would guess the 280x is likely to be the same. Not a problem if you don't need to boot in 15kHz, of course.

[Y_B_A_FOOL]

Sorry I haven't seen the notifications for your replies! This is whats going on/where I'm at now.

Gee, that’s a lot of information, and remote diagnosis is always a pain, but let’s give it a shot

I couldn't get a clear image on any resolution except 480i and the Nvidia control panel was giving me issues. I go into more detail in my reply to mgerety. I normally got a smeared/scrolling image that was out of sync when using any other resolution/timing. I guess I'm aiming for 15kHz as I don't know if the TV supports 31kHz. This would be my first low resolution set up I have not measured this the frequency, I will do so and grab voltages from the RGB and Sync since I thought they seemed weird.

Spoiler

Smear image:

The up pull resistors are there because every VGA guide tells you to put them in. From my understanding it's an impedance thing, but I'm no electronics expert. The TV seems extremely unhappy when they are removed!

It looks like a 4.7k and 2k resistor in parallel, so he's trying to make a 1.4k resistor, which is closest to...R2 on his schematic? I guess he can tell us

Right you are, I bought a generic resistor kit off amazon and I had to make do with what I had. I thought the circuit was my issue, so I have moved away from it. These are the resistor combos I used on the board.

R1: 3.3k ohm (series 2.2k+1k+100)
R2: 1.2k ohm (series 1k+220)
R3: 820 ohm (parallel 4.7k+1k )R3
R4: 68.75 ohm (parallel 220+100)

I did the mod you reference in your link.

On your board, there's a set of resistors that are tied together at both ends. That might be your issue. You should be putting a 1K resistor on each line (H/V Sync, then tying the tail ends of the 1k resistors together.. I don't know that connecting them at the beginning then adding the resistors will work. I think that's actually putting 2K resistance on the combined sync instead of 1k on each and combining. I'm not an electrical engineer by any means, so I don't know the effect of your changes.

Also, you tied them to ground, which I did not do. My mod uses a 1k resistor on each line, and with the far end of those resistors tied together. It worked perfectly.


HSync ------- 1k ------\______________ csync
VSync ------- 1k ------/

After I gave up on the circuit I made, I tried this method and I can't get a good image. Actually, the video and picture with an image were taken using this method. There was a ton of flickering though, explained by buttersoft, the camera doesn't pick it up. But I was having a ton off issue getting that picture to come up though. It ONLY worked the first time I set the monitor to 480i in the Nvidia control panel using CVT reduced blanking if I recall. If I changed a setting it would not come back. I could not get an image like that using CRU at all.


-----Where I'm at now-----

I've hit a point where I wanted to remove the Nvidia card and the Csync conversion out of the equation. My buddy had some 280x (should be plenty of power for native Wii and PS2 emulation) cards he used for mining and he sold it to me for cheap. I pieced together a cheap computer and used some other parts I had lying around. I still can't get it to work!!! (specs: 3200g, 8gb ram ddr4 2666, r9 280x, Windows 10 (1903) Superlite by GhostMods)

After I started writing this reply I realized I did not have the 750ohm resistors inline with the RGB lines shown in the mod thread. Adding them has fixed my dim OSD but not the problem at hand

OSD Fixed:

Spoiler

I had tinkered and messed with the emu drivers, cru and the Radeon drivers and I can consistently get the triple image mess I have now... At least its come sort of progress To get this image I am not using the Csync in the emu drivers, from what I can tell it doesn't seem to be enabling. The image is out of sync whenever I try to use it! To get the images below, I am running the Hsync and Vsync with 1k ohm resistors inline then the ends are merged together as mentioned before. Assuming the Radeon drivers is actually using the custom resolution settings, these were taken attempting 240p and 480i at mixed timings/polarities for the sync. I'm not sure if its actually changing or not, Windows does not display what is going on in the display settings.

HSync ------- 1k ------\______________ csync
VSync ------- 1k ------/

Spoiler

PC Post image:

Desktop:


SNES Example Images:

I have made a new board, it consists of the up 75 ohm pull resistors and the 750ohm RGB inline resistors.

Spoiler

Not sure where to go from here though. I wish I could get the emu drivers working correctly or this 280x was a waste of time. Whenever I enable the EDID setting I get a black screen. The Csync does not seem to be turning on at all. Using the 1k ohm resistors I get the same image when the setting is toggled on or off in. I'm not really worried about the switchres feature at this point. I just want an image.

I'll mention my deviations from the mod thread, I doubt they could possibly be an issue but I'll mention it while I'm here...
1. Instead, take ground from the S-video port, I found the common ground that the daughterboard connects to and directly soldered into it.
2. I did the same thing for the Csync input, it's directly connected to the board and not the port.

To check this I spliced a cable into the RCA cable to the ground and csync from the VGA. I got a dirty version of the current image I have, I feel like I made the right choice soldering where I did so I'm going to leave it as is.

[buttersoft]

Three images side-by-side like that is 45kHz. The TV is only fast enough to catch every third sync pulse at that rate. Two images would be 31kHz. So you're not getting 15kHz out of your GPU, is the problem right now.

Make sure to follow the crt_emudriver install and setup guide for the Radeon HD 5000 series and newer cards to the letter and you should be right - http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/v ... php?id=301

[Y_B_A_FOOL]

Three images side-by-side like that is 45kHz. The TV is only fast enough to catch every third sync pulse at that rate. Two images would be 31kHz. So you're not getting 15kHz out of your GPU, is the problem right now.

Make sure to follow the crt_emudriver install and setup guide for the Radeon HD 5000 series and newer cards to the letter and you should be right - http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/v ... php?id=301

Thanks, it's good to know that it's not at the right frequency, but no matter what I do it doesn't seem to be holding the changes I'm making with the driver I've looked at every guide I could find! The only thing I haven't done is try Windows 7, the instruction recommend doing so. I did want to retain the network sharing with my main PC, thus I was using Windows 10. Oh well. I did try to install Windows 7 today, but this garbage ASRock motherboard doesn't have PS2 mouse and keyboard emulation in the bios settings!!!

I got a ps2 mouse and keyboard on the way, I post my finds on the new OS once it's installed. Thanks for all the help so far!

[buttersoft]

No reason you shouldn't be able to use Win 10 for crt_emudriver; i certainly am. Be aware that creator updates will often kill your crt_emudriver install, so you have to make sure you have backups of your settings and config files like user-modes.ini if you make any changes. That way you can plug in an LCD and simply reinstall everything. The creator updates only happen once every 15 months or so, so it's not a huge deal.

Tell me, when you install crt_emudriver, does it come up with the test-mode watermark in the lower right corner of the windows desktop? This is while you're on your LCD setting things up, no CRT plugged in yet. Does the driver say it installs correctly? If you open the setup program again, is the install greyed out and the unistall option now available? And after install, what happens when you hit the emulate EDID button in VMM? Your LCD should drop out of sync if it's on the DVI-I port, or go into a flickery 480i mode like most Dell ones can, but have you tried connecting the CRT at that point? Remember that you need to be targeting the correct port with the EDID emulation, that card only has a single DVI-I port, and you'll need to figure out which one it is.

[Y_B_A_FOOL]

So I started with a clean install of Windows 10 (ver 1903) on both computers I tired. Auto-updates are disabled so it's not upgrading on me. When installing the driver it notifies me that I need to be in test mode. Confirming the required changes, the PC reboots and the watermark is there. I am then able to install the driver without issue.

From there I go straight into VMmaker and select Edit Settings. After going so I've tried multiple options, but I'm trying to set NTSC under the Monitor settings tab. Then I go to the Video card tab. Under Video card I set it to my DVI-I port and do the same for the EDID emulation output. Enabling Csync at this point doesn't give me an image, it doesn't seem to be enabling honestly at the wires. The computer seems to be attempting to enable it. Enabling EDID emulation results in a black screen, so I've been leaving it off. Rebooting/restarting the monitor/tv does nothing to get rid of the black screen issue. That's about all the info I found on trouble shooting that...

Exiting the settings, I select generate modes and install them. This gives custom presets in the Radeon tool and in the windows display settings. But the image doesn't seem to change when cycling between them, that all look the same until you go above 480i, then it looks like a mess on the screen, I know the TV doesn't natively support those resolutions.

[buttersoft]

Enabling EDID emulation results in a black screen, so I've been leaving it off.

If you have your LCD plugged into the analog-capable port, enabling EDID emulation should give you a black screen. A monitor's EDID is what it's telling the Windows video driver - for example, hi, I'm a DELL P32UH, i prefer being run at 1920x1080@60FPS; but i can also handle these other modes like 480p, etc.

If you set VMM to use a 15kHz range like NTSC, which you want to be doing, either that or Arcade_15, then the instant you enable EDID emulation the driver now thinks it's connected to a 15kHz-only monitor with a preferred mode of 640x480@60i - and windows switches to that mode. Some LCd's can handle that, most will go out of range. Is yours showing out of range, or just going dark?

This is when you plug in your CRT, using those 1k resistors before merging the sync lines. You then work with VMM to install more video modes. If you want to you can then try enabling c-sync and using the single sync line that used to be h-sync, that's up to you. I'm not sure how you get back if this doesn't work, but you seem to already be doing that?

Unless this whole scenario is is what you're doing already? Are you using the LCD on the same port, or a different one?

You would then generate and install the modelines as you said. And then you would use the ArcadeOSD tool to switch between them, and adjust them to fit your screen if you need to. ArcadeOSD is getting a bit long in the tooth however, it's not very happy on Windows 10, but you can generally get what you need out of it.

[Y_B_A_FOOL]

Sorry, I haven't gotten back sooner it's been a busy week!

The good news is I finally got it working!!! Well I haven't gotten everything working, but repeat the current process I have now to get an image out of it.

Unless this whole scenario is is what you're doing already? Are you using the LCD on the same port, or a different one?

ArcadeOSD is getting a bit long in the tooth however, it's not very happy on Windows 10, but you can generally get what you need out of it.

The LCD is plugged into the HDMI port on the GPU and was not the display that was giving me the black image. Whenever I enanable EDID I get a black screen on the CRT. I got into more detail below on the issue. Your mention of the OSD led me to figuring out everything in the long run btw!


So while troubleshooting, I restarted the computer while the LCD was unplugged and it booted to the desktop in the triple image mode I was getting before (fun fact it was 800x600). While I was there I might as well try something right? I gave the Arcade OSD another shot and stumbled my way to Arcade OSD with the triple screen image. I was able to select 320x240 and got a beautiful picture!!!
https://i.imgur.com/7BvZFfo.mp4

Screenshots:

Spoiler

Before I get a ton of flak, I stopped trying to use the OSD because it kept changing the LCD or it resulted in an imidate crash of the computer! Now with a usable picture and knowing how to get back to it, I was able to pin down the issue with the crashing/black screen I'm getting with the EDID option.

Resolutions 240x200 and 240x192 result in an immediate crash of the computer when selecting them from the Arcade OSD. With the LCD plugged in I am able to select these resolutions and if the computer doesn't crash I get a black screen (on the CRT) at those resolutions. 240x192 is the first resolution in the mode_list.txt file so it must be defaulting to this resolution when the EDID is set, resulting in the black screen (on the CRT). I tried deleting these resolutions from the file and reinstalling them but this results in a blue screen of death on loop... So I haven't gotten the EDID to work just yet.

The Csync kinda works, but I'm having an issue with the vertical sync when using it. Connecting the Csync results in a perfectly synced image, I'm not to positive on how to describe the issue. Basically, when you connect the wire sync wire the image stops scrolling and locks at whatever position it was at when the wire was connected. The image can stop halfway up the screen and display the other part of the image at the bottom. I'm not sure what's up with it, so I'm using the 1k resistors for the time being.

Example of the issue:

Spoiler

I guess now I just play with the CRT emudriver and not the TV at this point. It's not really a hardware issue anymore. Thanks for all the help everyone! I doubt I would have figured it out on my own!

[buttersoft]

Good to hear you got a result

When in ArcadeOSD's first screen, go down twice, to "Attach to Current Monitor", hit "2" key, then the "1" key, then the "2" key again. This moves AracdeOSD to the "other" screen, and then binds it to working on the output to that screen, then moves the visible ArcadeOSD window back to the first screen so you can see it again. This is assuming only two monitors, of course. You can do this without the CRT even plugged in, as long as Windows thinks it's there (can be checked in display properties).

[QUAKE]

The R9, 380x si the most powerful card you can get with DVI-I. I plan on buying one soon.

From AMD anyway. And the 280x does beat in a handful of games where memory bandwidth is more important.

If the OP is going to be playing PS2 and Wii, and he wants to run the games with ubershaders and supersampling and what not, then it might be worth it to go for something even newer, without VGA. Most HDMI and displayport converters don't have any lag. Unsure how well interlaced is supported on displayport though. On standard drivers I can't get interlaced on my hi-Hz CRT with displaport, the modes are just ignored, but on CRT Emu driver it might work.

Curious about 15khz through display port as well. Have you tried sunix or delock 62967?


This mod is awesome and i applaud getting rgbhv but if anyone is stumbling on this thread and is overwhelmed I assure you that an rgbhv to component adapter will give samel quality results

Like this one here

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RGB-VGA-to-YPb ... 4085772114