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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:48 am 



Joined: 04 Jul 2010
Posts: 246
Does the 301 provide pixel smoothing?
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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:34 pm 


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RIP-Felix wrote:
Nintendrew said the review unit "preserved" the source aspect ratio, like an NTSC 720x480 analog signal, but did not stretch it back to 4:3 like an analog CRT would. At least that's how he explained it. So he called them out on that. I suspect that his review was in part the reason for forcing 4:3. While that's better, I seriously doubt it can properly handle DTV 480p from the Dreamcast, Genesis 320x224 & other oddball resolutions that got cut off in the overscan.


I doubt the mCable will do any cropping.

Agreed on the aspect ratio feature. I am also skeptical of the unit's ability to properly recognise DTV and VESA. Of course, I won't pass judgement until I get one, but it seems unlikely.

RIP-Felix wrote:
Just stretching "everything" to 4:3 is close, but will result in incorrect aspect ratios and associated artifacts (shimmering, inconsistent pixel width, and etc).


Given the filtering the mCable has always used to market their product, I seriously doubt it will introduce shimmering or do simple "nearest neighbor" scaling that delivers wildly uneven "pixels".

I was really hoping the mClassic filtering would be subtle enough to upscale 720p or 960p to 1080p and leave the image with very little softening and without ringing. Although, I doubt it will.

Of course, I'll give it a go with 480p consoles and see what I think.

I doubt I'm going to like this one, but it's worth checking out for the $59.
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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:30 am 


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orange808 wrote:
...I doubt the mCable will do any cropping.

Agreed on the aspect ratio feature. I am also skeptical of the unit's ability to properly recognise DTV and VESA. Of course, I won't pass judgement until I get one, but it seems unlikely.

RIP-Felix wrote:
Just stretching "everything" to 4:3 is close, but will result in incorrect aspect ratios and associated artifacts (shimmering, inconsistent pixel width, and etc).


Given the filtering the mCable has always used to market their product, I seriously doubt it will introduce shimmering or do simple "nearest neighbor" scaling that delivers wildly uneven "pixels".

I was really hoping the mClassic filtering would be subtle enough to upscale 720p or 960p to 1080p and leave the image with very little softening and without ringing. Although, I doubt it will.

Of course, I'll give it a go with 480p consoles and see what I think.

I doubt I'm going to like this one, but it's worth checking out for the $59.

For retro consoles, IDK. The point of upscaling is to get sharp pixels and/or less lag.
- Why add AA and undo the sharpening? Dither?
I had that idea with the mCable GE. I tried a clean digital signal from N64 via the ultraHDMI mod, turned VI Deblur on and removed the first pass of software AA by applying an IPS patch to the rom, then set it to output 480p so the mCable could apply the max AA/enhancement. So the cleanest possable n64 480p signal is passed to the mCable. I thought maybe this would be a good use case for the mCable. Instead of AA being compounded by the upscale, resulting in an even more smeared image onscreen, perhaps it could reapply the AA after the upscale and achieve a more desirable result. In short, the AA isn't enough to mask the dither when both passes are removed, but if you leave the software AA the dither is far less noticeable. The smear is back though. Basically the N64 is a dithered mess without AA and that's just what it is. The mCable can't fix that.

- As for any pre 480p consoles, I can't see this being of any benefit over the OSSC, which you'd need to convert component, SCART, or VGA consoles to HDMI in the first place. It will give 240p sources a perfect 5x integer scale for beautiful 1080p without the need for the mClassic. RetroTink2x on the other hand can accept component or composite sources and line double 240p -> 480p, which the mClassic can then upscale to 1080p with AA. A retrotink2x + mClassic will cost more than an OSSC, so I don't think that's really a viable alternative, but if you already have a retrotink, maybe the mClassic is more attractive than getting the OSSC. I could see that.

- What about Shimering artifacts?
That's a plausible use case for this. A proper integer upscale should prevent shimmering, but if you want to fill the vertical screen real estate then the AA might be enough to mask ununiform pixel height. 480p -> 1080p, might benefit from this. I tested Dreamcast on the mCable GE, it accepted DTV 480p and 2x 960p from the OSSC just fine, and upscaled to 1080p filling the vertical space, but it stretched to 16:9. Will mClassic's retro mode stretch to 4:3, which is a bit too narrow, or preserve the DTV ratio? Probably the former, but that's not the worst thing ever. I thought it looked quite good otherwise. The AA effect was best with 960p IMO. Going all the way from 480p was too soft. It would be nice to have screen shots or video to compare. I didn't notice shimmering, but I wasn't specifically looking for it. I was appalled by the 16:9 and looked no further. The mClassic might be worth another look in this use case. I could see it being used as an imperfect upgrade to just the OSSC. The combo doesn't come close to the DCHDMI, but the mClassic does more than just Dreamcast and will be easier to obtain, use, and install.

I could go ether way on it. I'm still on the fence for one at $80. I hesitated an lost out on the $59 opportunity. At that price, I feel it might just be worth it. I like that the mClassic does everything automatically, I just want more control. 3 selectible modes is a step in the right direction, and while not to the standard of an OSSC in terms of customization, might be worth it for ease of use. As it is, I could envision dedicating 480p and up consoles to an HDMI switch hooked up to the TV via the mClassic. Those consoles benefit more from soft edges, despite the image "enhancements".


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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:58 am 


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Quote:
- What about Shimering artifacts?

the mClassic uses a video scaling engine. The engine is based on DVDO/ABT's VRS scaling used in their 4K Micro upscaling cable. There is no shimmering, no matter what input/output resolution combination.


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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:13 pm 


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Fudoh wrote:
Quote:
- What about Shimering artifacts?

the mClassic uses a video scaling engine. The engine is based on DVDO/ABT's VRS scaling used in their 4K Micro upscaling cable. There is no shimmering, no matter what input/output resolution combination.


The 4K micro/mini lagless as well?


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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:40 pm 


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I don't recall. Not completely I think (half a frame maybe?).


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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:25 pm 


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citrus3000psi wrote:

The 4K micro ... lagless as well?


The iScan Micro is essentially lagless like the mCable. The Leo Bodnar confirmed it.

I couldn't get it to work with the OSSC at all. I seem to recall others having the same issue.

(I don't know about the Mini.)
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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:34 am 



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They need to stop marketing this thing for switch and start focusing on 480p-720p content. That processing is already showing itself to be one hell of an upgrade in that area and they're not doing enough to demonstrate it.

At least it doesn't look to have the edge ringing like previous cables.
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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:03 pm 



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Posts: 284
headlesshobbs wrote:
They need to stop marketing this thing

FTFY :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:46 pm 


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I'd be very interested if there was one of these developed with a 480p analogue for CRTs but that'll never happen. I'd also want to be able to turn off any contrast & sharpness 'enhancements'. It'd be great if the mclassic had some adjustability in that area - maybe on a future model.


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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:01 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2010
Posts: 477
Anyone else get tracking information for their order? Looks like the two pack I ordered will arrive tomorrow.
Hopefully they fixed the ringing issue I noticed in the mCable. See that thread here: viewtopic.php?p=1284102#p1284102
Wish I still had a capture card so I could do good before/after screens captures... Taking pictures of a TV screen does not work too well.
Anyway, I might wait to see some more reviews before I open them or at least until I can PS2HDMI installed int my PlayStation 2.


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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:01 pm 


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:lol:

mCable Classic processing in action. There it is. I'm stopping right here.

480p HiDefNES to 1080p

Spoiler: show
Image


:lol:

It's such a shame, because I think they could find a market for a simple lagless scaler.

That ringing is crazy. Looks like a Darbeevision cranked all the way to max. Absolutely awful. Darbee already makes a better version of this thing.
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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:20 pm 


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Oh wow that actually is worse than I expected :D

Is the agressive sharpening being amplified by the scanlines? I mean if it can't even figure out how to process horizontal lines what good it is? But does it look any kind of better with scanlines off? :D


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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:22 pm 


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Konsolkongen wrote:
Oh wow that actually is worse than I expected :D

Is the agressive sharpening being amplified by the scanlines? I mean if it can't even figure out how to process horizontal lines what good it is?, but does it look any kind of better with scanlines off? :D

:mrgreen:

:lol:

It's like someone pooped in an HDMI cable and sold it.

Edit: Okay. Leaving the screen and coming back without scanlines is somewhat better.

Still awful, though.
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Last edited by orange808 on Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:27 pm 


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Lol :D

I'm not surprised that it is terrible, but I never expected this level of awful. I guess a lot people will use it for more modern consoles where the complexity of the graphics will probably hide this mess to some degree :/


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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:28 pm 


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It's not meant for 240p though is it? From what I gathered, 480p is this lowest resolution to use with this.

On another note, would there be any way of having this processing using analogue 480p in, analogue 480p out?


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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:29 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2010
Posts: 477
orange808 wrote:
:lol:

mCable Classic processing in action. There it is. I'm stopping right here.

480p HiDefNES to 1080p

Spoiler: show
Image


:lol:

It's such a shame, because I think they could find a market for a simple lagless scaler.

That ringing is crazy. Looks like a Darbeevision cranked all the way to max. Absolutely awful. Darbee already makes a better version of this thing.


Is that mCable or mClassic? I'm not a fan of scanlines, but never had horrible results like that when I tested mCable.
viewtopic.php?p=1284102#p1284102
viewtopic.php?p=1284109#p1284109

andykara2003 wrote:
It's not meant for 240p though is it? From what I gathered, 480p is this lowest resolution to use with this.

On another note, would there be any way of having this processing using analogue 480p in, analogue 480p out?


mCable accpeted 240p in some cases from an OSSC
viewtopic.php?p=1284138#p1284138

Working but with artifacts on screen:
OSSC 240p 3x
OSSC 240p 4x
OSSC 240p 5x in 1920x1080
OSSC 480p 2x

Working and no artifacts:
OSSC 240p 2x
OSSC 240p Passthru
OSSC 240p 5x in 1600x1200 and 1920x1200 (seems to be Passthru though as image not being processed)
OSSC 480p Passthru


Last edited by Seraphic on Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:35 pm 



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andykara2003 wrote:
It's not meant for 240p though is it? From what I gathered, 480p is this lowest resolution to use with this.

On another note, would there be any way of having this processing using analogue 480p in, analogue 480p out?

If you're referring to orange808's screenshot, that would be 240p, but line-doubled to 480p by the Hi-Def NES; so it is being fed 480p.


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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:37 pm 


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mCable Classic feeding 480p with scanlines. It's not 240p.
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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:43 pm 


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I see - although it still represents the heavy pixellation of the 240p art style - wouldn't 480p 3D graphics be the ideal lowest target?


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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:48 pm 


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andykara2003 wrote:
I see - although it still represents the heavy pixellation of the 240p art style - wouldn't 480p 3D graphics be the ideal lowest target?


Maybe.

I plugged in the cable for the first time, turned it on, and I was immediately greeted by that mess.
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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:47 pm 



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andykara2003 wrote:
I see - although it still represents the heavy pixellation of the 240p art style - wouldn't 480p 3D graphics be the ideal lowest target?


Yes. I have no idea why you would use it with native 240p content.


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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:18 pm 


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If you're going to print Super Nintendo, Genesis, or Dreamcast on the box, you better be able to scale scanlines. After all, those don't support HDMI out, so it's reasonable to assume people will be using an OSSC. Low resolution sources are assumed in those situations as well.

I can easily boot up any of those machines and break their scaling engine, by the way. It's easy to do.

Although, I honestly just posted the first thing I saw when I turned it on. I was rolling laughing. I just wanted to start by looking over a couple test patterns from a pristine 480p source, but my HiDefNES has the scanlines turned on by default right now. The mCable Classic choked so badly, I had to share it.

Anyhow, I didn't print retro consoles on the box; they did that, so it's fair.
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 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:02 pm 


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Agreed - they’re going to get some flack for highlighting the 240 consoles seeing as the games look so horrendous.. I’ve got one coming for 480p, specifically Wii/Cube on a flat panel. I just hope it can clean up the image a bit without looking artificial. My dream is that the Galaxy games finally look acceptable on my 50” plasma.


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