Oops. misread that as NES RGB! Yup, borti's external board.makar1 wrote:Where did you buy from? There's no mention of a regulator on Tim's shop or install guide.vol.2 wrote: Tim's kit should come with a external regulator. Mine did anyway.
![Embarassed :oops:](./images/smilies/icon_redface.gif)
Oops. misread that as NES RGB! Yup, borti's external board.makar1 wrote:Where did you buy from? There's no mention of a regulator on Tim's shop or install guide.vol.2 wrote: Tim's kit should come with a external regulator. Mine did anyway.
This is the first I've heard of it. I'll look into it, but thank-you! Been giving me the irits for the past few years!makar1 wrote:You could try adding Borti's 3.3v regulator board to at least provide stable power to the RGB board.Chomolonzo wrote:I have an NTSC N64 modded with Tim Worthington's RGB kit, and while it works fine there's an unusual problem with it: the brightness level seems to flicker up and down constantly.
I've had it looked at by a very capable modder, but he's not sure what the issue is. I had a PAL system modded as well, and it also had the same issue. I had the RGB board on my NTSC system (the system I actually use) replaced and the wires shortened as much as possible, but while the problem was lessened considerably, it still exists. It's not exactly a massive problem by any stretch, but I was just wondering if anyone might know what the issue is.
Do you know for sure that they can accept a DTV 480p signal, and not just VGA 640x480?Dochartaigh wrote:Have some video wall 480p CRT monitors which require TTL sync, and they won't show any kind of image through Wii>Garo VGA>CRT, or Dreamcast>Toro VGA>CRT.
an analog display cannot tell the differencenmalinoski wrote:Do you know for sure that they can accept a DTV 480p signal, and not just VGA 640x480?Dochartaigh wrote:Have some video wall 480p CRT monitors which require TTL sync, and they won't show any kind of image through Wii>Garo VGA>CRT, or Dreamcast>Toro VGA>CRT.
I do not know, but if the DC works through a plain VGA cable, I would assume the signal itself (but perhaps not the levels of that signal) from the DC + Toro would be the same resolution still, right? So if it works on one but not the other it can take that resolution signal, but (guessing here) it just doesn't like the Toro.nmalinoski wrote:Do you know for sure that they can accept a DTV 480p signal, and not just VGA 640x480?Dochartaigh wrote:Have some video wall 480p CRT monitors which require TTL sync, and they won't show any kind of image through Wii>Garo VGA>CRT, or Dreamcast>Toro VGA>CRT.
Why does the product info say “Configurable for RGB (4:4:4)”? https://cdn-docs.av-iq.com/dataSheet//M ... asheet.pdfFudoh wrote:If you got a chain like this 480p source > VP30 without processing/scaling > VP30 output > 480p screen, then you're still dealing with a color resolution reduction to 4:2:2, when is then upsampled again before output. The DVDOs are also never true 1:1 in terms of sharpness.
Overall you can't compare this to an 4:4:4 machine like the Extron. The results won't be anywhere close.
I'm going to answer my own question here, just in case others need the answer: The BeharBros Garo AND Toro do NOT output proper VGA. This is confirmed by them via FB messenger.Dochartaigh wrote:Does the Behar Bros Toro AND Garo output proper TTL 5vp-p sync when it's outputting RGBHV/VGA?
Which is what I have. What am I not understanding?Fudoh wrote:because you can set the output to RGB 4:4:4 in order to drive DVI-only displays.
Just because it's outputting in 4:4:4 does not mean the internal processing is 4:4:4. It is downsampling (losing information) then upsampling at the output stage (repeating information).strayan wrote:Which is what I have. What am I not understanding?Fudoh wrote:because you can set the output to RGB 4:4:4 in order to drive DVI-only displays.
Is the same true with VP50 PRO?orange808 wrote:As I understand it, the DVDO scaling (processing) engine applies 4:2:2 subsampling to everything it touches. You can't configure it. There is no option for full 4:4:4, because the DVDO processing always uses 4:2:2. That's just the way they made it. That's how it works.
So, you feed a full 4:4:4 signal, the DVDO applies 4:2:2, the DVDO does it's work, and the DVDO relabels the 4:2:2 processed signal as "4:4:4" for convenience.
The chroma subsampling "damaged" the signal when the DVDO processed the signal. You can't undo it.
Yes.strayan wrote: Is the same true with VP50 PRO?
Yes. There are a few, but couldn't you just chain an HDMI switch before an inexpensive unit and get the same result?strayan wrote: Are there any scalers with multiple HDMI inputs that leave the 4:4:4 signal intact and have user configurable output resolutions?
VGA is .7V p-p Analog RGB. CGA and EGA are TTL.Dochartaigh wrote:I'm going to answer my own question here, just in case others need the answer: The BeharBros Garo AND Toro do NOT output proper VGA. This is confirmed by them via FB messenger.Dochartaigh wrote:Does the Behar Bros Toro AND Garo output proper TTL 5vp-p sync when it's outputting RGBHV/VGA?
I asked if it outputted 5v on the H and V sync lines, per the VGA spec (which is also called TTL level, right?), and they said no. So although their Toro page mentions "VGA" FIVE TIMES, and FOUR mentions of "VGA" on the Garo page....they don't actually output proper VGA. Yet another disappointment from this company...
Anyway, both Behar units worked when routed through an Extron RGB which outputs proper TTV/5v sync on the H and V lines. The CRT monitors we were testing no longer flashed the image off and on (or just not displaying a signal at all even) like it was doing before.
Yeah that’s what I do already but it looks pretty messy. Is there a list of these?orange808 wrote:Yes.strayan wrote: Is the same true with VP50 PRO?
Yes. There are a few, but couldn't you just chain an HDMI switch before an inexpensive unit and get the same result?strayan wrote: Are there any scalers with multiple HDMI inputs that leave the 4:4:4 signal intact and have user configurable output resolutions?
My understanding is that VGA used .7Vp-p for video lines and 5Vp-p (TTL) for sync. Is that not the case?vol.2 wrote:VGA is .7V p-p Analog RGB. CGA and EGA are TTL.
Basically, to changing NTSC to VGA, you double the horizontal scanning frequency to ~31kHz.
That's what I always thought as well, and what a couple spec pages on VGA said too (which is hard to find the voltage! they always want to go into the pure video stuff instead in the voltage specs).nmalinoski wrote:My understanding is that VGA used .7Vp-p for video lines and 5Vp-p (TTL) for sync. Is that not the case?vol.2 wrote:VGA is .7V p-p Analog RGB. CGA and EGA are TTL.
Basically, to changing NTSC to VGA, you double the horizontal scanning frequency to ~31kHz.
VGA is in-fact 700mVpp for RGB and 5V TTL (or sometimes 3.3V LVTTL) for syncsDochartaigh wrote:That's what I always thought as well, and what a couple spec pages on VGA said too (which is hard to find the voltage! they always want to go into the pure video stuff instead in the voltage specs).nmalinoski wrote:My understanding is that VGA used .7Vp-p for video lines and 5Vp-p (TTL) for sync. Is that not the case?vol.2 wrote:VGA is .7V p-p Analog RGB. CGA and EGA are TTL.
Basically, to changing NTSC to VGA, you double the horizontal scanning frequency to ~31kHz.
I literally think on the Toro, totally educated-guessing here, that they're only able to output 5 volts TOTAL. I say this because when we set the Toro to RGBS through an Extron RGB (which splits the combined sync to H and V with the proper voltage), the image has the proper brightness without tweaking anything on the Extron. When we set the Toro to RGBHV output (where I assume/guess that the voltage might then be ~2.5volts per each of the two lines), the brightness noticeably dropped and was too dark without tweaking on the Extron.
Yeah, I have no clue why it worked that way then. Maybe there's an overall voltage amount the Toro has to use, including the R, G, B (0.7v/each) lines, an it's simply brighter when it only has to run 4 lines for RGBS instead of 5 for RGBHV? Who friggin knows – I'll stop guessing nowmaxtherabbit wrote:that part about sync voltage affecting brightness and splitting voltage is nonsense though
I don't have a behar box, but AFAIK they don't buffer the RGB at all. So the voltage levels on RGB should be exactly the same as how they come out of the dreamcast. The wildcard here is their scanline implementation. That could be what's dropping your RGB levels maybe?Dochartaigh wrote:Yeah, I have no clue why it worked that way then. Maybe there's an overall voltage amount the Toro has to use, including the R, G, B (0.7v/each) lines, an it's simply brighter when it only has to run 4 lines for RGBS instead of 5 for RGBHV? Who friggin knows – I'll stop guessing nowmaxtherabbit wrote:that part about sync voltage affecting brightness and splitting voltage is nonsense though
All I know is we had 5 different 29" VGA CRT monitors to test so we tried everything we could think of. The only way to get proper brightness out of the Toro + Extron RGB was to put the Toro into RGBS mode. Otherwise (with Toro set to RGBHV) we had to use the Level and Boost dial of the Extron RGB 203 Rxi (which the manual says it can boost the 0.7vp-p up to 1.45vp-p max).
I'm still waiting to hear back from Behar about what the voltage is in both RGBS and RGBHV mode as I'm just curious at this point.
Scanlines were off. Just 480p switch on, and we messed with the RGBS/RGBHV switch.maxtherabbit wrote:I don't have a behar box, but AFAIK they don't buffer the RGB at all. So the voltage levels on RGB should be exactly the same as how they come out of the dreamcast. The wildcard here is their scanline implementation. That could be what's dropping your RGB levels maybe?
Grab one of the Extron IN 180x series. Custom resolutions are handled with custom EDID. Doesn't do 15kHz video, but upscaling should be really nice. The 1804 is reasonably priced for new gear. The older 160x series isn't 4:4:4. No, there isn't a cheap option.strayan wrote: Yeah that’s what I do already but it looks pretty messy. Is there a list of these?
This should be DSC, not VSC.orange808 wrote:The switch and an inexpensive old Extron VSC 301 HD is still probably your best bet. The Extron VSC 301 HD units are still fairly new, they're very cheap, and I know they have the things gamers want.
I keep hearing that the deinterlacing is terrible, and from reputable, knowledgeable members, but I really don't notice any problems with it. Is there a comparison somewhere that demonstrates how bad it supposedly is?orange808 wrote:I don't have the Extron 301 hooked up at all. My displays all accept 960p, now. So, I don't need to add a full frame of lag for a marginal image quality advantage when upscaling 720p and the deinterlacing is terrible.
Unfortunately, that's still false advertising.Guspaz wrote:IIRC the scanlines on the Garo came from shorting the video lines to ground every other scanline? I mean, they have no idea what they're doing, so you probably shouldn't expect anything about their stuff to be in-spec.
Remember how Ste from HD Retrovision designed that Garo RGBS amp/bypass that I installed in mine to fix most of the problems it had? Guess how the beharbros fixed that problem, where they had a ridiculously wrong sync combiner for the RGBS output? They stopped soldering in the SCART connector on shipping units and only advertise it as supporting RGBHV output now!
Shouldn't be too hard to see.nmalinoski wrote: I keep hearing that the deinterlacing is terrible, and from reputable, knowledgeable members, but I really don't notice any problems with it. Is there a comparison somewhere that demonstrates how bad it supposedly is?
Oh, the sync. Yup, my apologies.nmalinoski wrote: My understanding is that VGA used .7Vp-p for video lines and 5Vp-p (TTL) for sync. Is that not the case?