shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:34 am View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 84 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic (Tech Specs Posted)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:21 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 624
nmalinoski wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
ldeveraux wrote:
Can I assume you recommend this for HDMI? Which model Extron? Thanks!


I use a DSC HD-HD unit.

A DSC 301 HD would also work, but also has a DE-15 input; so, if you pair your HDMI source with an HDMI to VGA converter, you can reduce mode-switching time from about 3 seconds to about 1 second.


Yes it should. I do my HDMI to VGA conversion, when needed, after the HD-HD with an HDFury3 that then goes to an Rxi interface.

Also avoid the DVS units, their scaling is pretty bad.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic (Tech Specs Posted)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:58 pm 



Joined: 09 Apr 2012
Posts: 2286
Seraphic wrote:
A user on another forum I check out every now and then seems to have a pre-production review unit of the mClassic and posted some screens.

MClassic processing off
http://pics.theouterhaven.net/di/T77N/mclassic-testing-fast_rmx-off.png

Mclassic processing On
http://pics.theouterhaven.net/di/G0G7/mclassic-testing-fast_rmx-on.png

Konsolkongen wrote:
Some people will probably find the massively oversaturated colors more pleasing :/

While I can understand the appeal of the "anti aliasing", I much prefer the original stair stepping without ringing.

I think it looks bad, but I must admit I'm a bit surprised that it doesn't crush more detail than it actually does.

Those pictures are probably a bad comparison to look at. They're 1907x1036. A Switch capture should be 1920x1080 and a capture from a 4K scaler should be 3840x2160.

There's also aliasing in the "On" screenshot that makes me wonder if the post-processing anti-aliasing is working properly. Fast RMX is a dynamic resolution game, so it might not be running at native resolution (which is necessary for post-processing antialiasing to work properly). It's also a game with post-processing effects that could interfere.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic (Tech Specs Posted)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:59 pm 



Joined: 01 Mar 2018
Posts: 284
fernan1234 wrote:
Yes it should. I do my HDMI to VGA conversion, when needed, after the HD-HD with an HDFury3 that then goes to an Rxi interface.

Also avoid the DVS units, their scaling is pretty bad.


I feel like the DSC 301 HD is a better buy with more inputs, similar resolutions, and is typically cheaper. Is everything else on par like lag, usability, etc?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic (Tech Specs Posted)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:07 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 624
ldeveraux wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Yes it should. I do my HDMI to VGA conversion, when needed, after the HD-HD with an HDFury3 that then goes to an Rxi interface.

Also avoid the DVS units, their scaling is pretty bad.


I feel like the DSC 301 HD is a better buy with more inputs, similar resolutions, and is typically cheaper. Is everything else on par like lag, usability, etc?


I imagine they do the same processing. The HD-HD is also very small. I don't need the other input types so in my case it works better. It does seem like they are less common and pricier now.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic (Tech Specs Posted)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:34 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2016
Posts: 1317
ldeveraux wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Yes it should. I do my HDMI to VGA conversion, when needed, after the HD-HD with an HDFury3 that then goes to an Rxi interface.

Also avoid the DVS units, their scaling is pretty bad.


I feel like the DSC 301 HD is a better buy with more inputs, similar resolutions, and is typically cheaper. Is everything else on par like lag, usability, etc?


The older HD-HD models that you will find used don't have frame lock.
_________________
We apologize for the inconvenience


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic (Tech Specs Posted)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:23 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2019
Posts: 50
The OSSC has Scale2x/Super Eagle style graphics filters and Dedither on the feature request list. There is custom firmware based on v0.78 that implements Scale2X and HQ filters, for the impatient. That plus an Extron might be the ultimate solution. But these methods aren't plug and play. They require setup and fiddling. They're not cheap either!

Technophiles may prefer more options and versatility, but the mClassic is appealing because it's automatic, which is good for technophobes. $99 retail is steep, but if it takes the hassle out of upscaling, I can see the market for it. Tack on lagless anti aliasing, contrast enhancement, artificial sharpening, and it's an "attractive" proposition. Even though artifacts can be seen by a trained eye, it does "appear" to offer a better picture to an untrained eye.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic (Tech Specs Posted)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:55 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 11888
Location: Germany
On the 301 vs. HD-HD topic:

plus the HD-HD doesn't do framed 1:1 output, so you can't output an active 960p window within a 1080p output. The 301 can do this. The HD-HD is a great "no need to touch anything" device for recording the OSSC output, but for actual gaming use, the 301 is considerably more useful.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic (Tech Specs Posted)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:34 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 624
Fudoh wrote:
On the 301 vs. HD-HD topic:

plus the HD-HD doesn't do framed 1:1 output, so you can't output an active 960p window within a 1080p output. The 301 can do this. The HD-HD is a great "no need to touch anything" device for recording the OSSC output, but for actual gaming use, the 301 is considerably more useful.


That's interesting. Never needed it for that kind of usage, all I do with it is 720p -> 1080i <- 1080p for a D24. It works fantastically for that, the output really looks like native 1080i which is where that monitor shines most IMO. And I don't feel any lag. But in general it does sound like the 301 is more useful for most people.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic (Tech Specs Posted)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:30 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2010
Posts: 477
For those interested you can buy mClassic for $59 with free shipping right now if you hurry.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mcla ... 22177800#/


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic (Tech Specs Posted)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:41 am 



Joined: 01 Mar 2018
Posts: 284
Seraphic wrote:
For those interested you can buy mClassic for $59 with free shipping right now if you hurry.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mcla ... 22177800#/


Man, that stinks, I was in constant contact with a rep at Marseille after I asked for more info on this. They never told me when it was going live. Sadly, Indiegogo is a no-gogo for me. Yikes!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic (Tech Specs Posted)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:03 pm 



Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Posts: 56
I got/will get the 2 pack super early pack. If someone is interested I would have one availablee for the actual costs (shipment to Austria and maybe import tax).


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic (Tech Specs Posted)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:58 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2016
Posts: 1317
I went ahead and got one. It's fairly cheap--and I should be able to recoup some of the expense by reselling it quickly as a CIB. I strongly suspect it will use subsampling--similar to the HDFury boxes.
_________________
We apologize for the inconvenience


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic (Tech Specs Posted)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:35 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 11888
Location: Germany
@kassj0peja: just sent you a PM.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic (Tech Specs Posted)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:11 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2010
Posts: 477
Here are some reviews:

Text:
https://techreport.com/review/3463592/m ... o-content/

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd9IGzfnBaI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAehj2GX__0


orange808 wrote:
I strongly suspect it will use subsampling--similar to the HDFury boxes.


From what I understand when scaling to 1080p/1440p 60fps and 2160p 30fps are supported in YUV (YCbCr) 4:4:4 and 2160p 50Hz/60Hz are supported in YUV (YCbCr) 4:2:0

ldeveraux wrote:
Seraphic wrote:
For those interested you can buy mClassic for $59 with free shipping right now if you hurry.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mcla ... 22177800#/


Sadly, Indiegogo is a no-gogo for me. Yikes!


What's wrong with Indiegogo? Just wondering.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic (Tech Specs Posted)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:44 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2016
Posts: 1317
Seraphic wrote:
From what I understand when scaling to 1080p/1440p 60fps and 2160p 30fps are supported in YUV (YCbCr) 4:4:4 and 2160p 50Hz/60Hz are supported in YUV (YCbCr) 4:2:0


I believe those are just output limitations due to HDMI bandwidth.

There's really no guarantee that it will have a completely uncompressed processing path from "end to end" for 1080p or 1440p output.

At the very least, I hope it can sample at full chroma and compress afterwards during processing. I understand the Framemeister and Reon work that way.

I hope it surprises me and turns out great. We shall see.
_________________
We apologize for the inconvenience


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic (Tech Specs Posted)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:49 pm 



Joined: 01 Mar 2018
Posts: 284
Seraphic wrote:

What's wrong with Indiegogo? Just wondering.


They don't require a working product to start the campaign, which Kickstarter at least does correctly. There's a chance that a project on IGG has zero chance of working but gets funded anyway. Especially with the tiered program, or whatever it's called, where the project doesn't have to be 100% funded before the founder gets the money. Check the Dragonfly Futurefon...


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:49 am 



Joined: 11 Dec 2014
Posts: 345
Why are people still giving this company and their garbage the time of day? Just enabling selling snake oil to people.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:34 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 150
Another review with clearer shots of how this device distorts the picture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nzantwzg6M


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:37 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2010
Posts: 477
I just think would be something cool to mess around with adding anti-aliasing that you can not normally get for consoles.
These are supposed to offer improved processing over mCable too (or so they say). If they stink, well, it's off to eBay with them.

Ordered one at first for $59, but then decided to cancel that and order the two pack of mClassic for $125.
Had the the crazy idea to try something like this to see what kind of results double processing would get:

Console -> 480p Game or 720p Game -> mClassic #1 -> Upscaled to 1080p -> Crystalio II VPS-3800 -> Downscale to 720p or 480p -> mClassic #2 -> Upscaled to 1080p -> TV
Console -> 480p Game or 720p Game -> mClassic #1 -> Upscaled to 1080p -> Extron DSC 301 HD -> Downscale to 720p or 480p -> mClassic #2 -> Upscaled to 1080p -> TV

But the problem is I do not have a capture card so I will not be able to get screen captures for hard comparisons. Will only be able to see results on TV.
Hopefully someone here with the same processors I have along with a capture card would be kind of enough to do that. (Looks at Fudoh :D)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:43 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 09 Aug 2017
Posts: 1248
Location: Australia
I'd be more interested in your input lag with that chain.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:18 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2010
Posts: 477
Syntax wrote:
I'd be more interested in your input lag with that chain.


Don't really have any hardware to test input lag on hand, but according to RetroRGB's video on the mCable, there is a 2ms input delay (basically negligible he said).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bv-siMaqjQ

So whatever normal input lag the Crystalio II VPS-3800 or Extron DSC 301 HD add (anyone have those numbers?), using two mClassic's should add (if they add same as lag as mCable) an additional 2ms + 2ms = 4ms of input lag on top I would guess.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:59 am 


User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 1776
Location: Denmark
Damn, I couldn't imagine two times the contrast "enhancements" of this thing combined :O


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:45 am 


User avatar

Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 239
Location: UK
Konsolkongen wrote:
Damn, I couldn't imagine two times the contrast "enhancements" of this thing combined :O


I would have liked one to mess around with but the contrast and saturation changes are a bit much (going by youtube videos). Still, looking forward to impressions from the people getting it here.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:16 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2016
Posts: 1317
I finally got around to reading the updates on Indiegogo. Looks like they made a change to the scaling engine. Apparently, the "retro" mode will now always force 4:3.

I don't know of that's a good or bad thing. When I hear it's going to "force" the aspect ratio, it makes me worry.

Then again, maybe it will have a use case for the HiDefNES. It would sure be nice to have an option to get the right aspect ratio, no shimmering, and good color palletes. Of course, that assumes the cable won't apply a ton of blur to the 720p input (and it probably will).

I'm disappointed they didn't provide an option to bypass some of the processing. It looks like the 2d processing is going to be subpar.

Can't wait to see what the final version does.
_________________
We apologize for the inconvenience


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:35 pm 



Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Posts: 56
I ordered an MClassic anyway but now I am trying to find the right solution to use a PAL GC and a DC.

I was looking into getting the internal HDMI mods but that is just too expensive and I need more of a Plug&Play solution.

Does anyone have any experience with these consoles, the MCable and the Retrotink2x?

If the results are much better than S-Video on a Retrotink, I will even consider buying the upcoming component cables from retrogamingcables.uk


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:07 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 25 May 2014
Posts: 509
kassj0peja wrote:
Does anyone have any experience with these consoles, the MCable and the Retrotink2x?

If the results are much better than S-Video on a Retrotink, I will even consider buying the upcoming component cables from retrogamingcables.uk

I don't have any experience with the MCable at all, but for a PAL GC you should be aware that the console does not output S-Video at all, only Composite and RGB.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:59 pm 



Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Posts: 56
oh thanks.

this and the lack of 480p input makes the Retrotink less interesting then. The MClasssic I will use on my Xbox One for BC and my low end PC anyway.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:55 am 


User avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2019
Posts: 50
Seraphic wrote:
...But the problem is I do not have a capture card so I will not be able to get screen captures for hard comparisons. Will only be able to see results on TV.
Hopefully someone here with the same processors I have along with a capture card would be kind of enough to do that. (Looks at Fudoh :D)

You could get an Elgato HD60S for about the same price as this thing will cost, when it's released. I've been considering it for sxactly this kind of thing.

orange808 wrote:
I finally got around to reading the updates on Indiegogo. Looks like they made a change to the scaling engine. Apparently, the "retro" mode will now always force 4:3.

I don't know of that's a good or bad thing. When I hear it's going to "force" the aspect ratio, it makes me worry.

Then again, maybe it will have a use case for the HiDefNES. It would sure be nice to have an option to get the right aspect ratio, no shimmering, and good color palletes. Of course, that assumes the cable won't apply a ton of blur to the 720p input (and it probably will).

I'm disappointed they didn't provide an option to bypass some of the processing. It looks like the 2d processing is going to be subpar.

Can't wait to see what the final version does.

Nintendrew said the review unit "preserved" the source aspect ratio, like an NTSC 720x480 analog signal, but did not stretch it back to 4:3 like an analog CRT would. At least that's how he explained it. So he called them out on that. I suspect that his review was in part the reason for forcing 4:3. While that's better, I seriously doubt it can properly handle DTV 480p from the Dreamcast, Genesis 320x224 & other oddball resolutions that got cut off in the overscan. Just stretching "everything" to 4:3 is close, but will result in incorrect aspect ratios and associated artifacts (shimmering, inconsistent pixel width, and etc).

I have put the mCable Gaming Edition through it's paces. Ultimately I found that it's really only useful for PS3/PS4 era consoles to upscale 720p->1080p for a minor improvement in jaggies, but the post-processing effects may be unappealing, especially if you have your colors calibrated. It applies some kind of contrast curve that over saturates colors and crushes blacks. 1080p24Hz BluRay to 4K is a decent upgrade, but has occasional artifacts. It totally butchered a scene in the Martian. I'm still not convinced there is no place for this, but it's advantages come with asterisks.

The mClassic's retro mode is the feature I most wanted in the mCable GE, as the stretch to 16:9 for everything was untenable and removed almost all of my use cases right off the bat (stupid VIZIO TV won't let me stretch it back to 4:3). So I was initially excited to see this was going to be a feature. However, they still don't allow us to disable the color enhancment post processing! The upscaling and AA are the star features here. The other image enhancements are counterproductive, causing further loss of detail.

That said, the AA should hide the shimmering and it's probable that most people, not to be confused with enthusiasts like those who read these forums, won't notice the the picture being slightly fatter/thinner than it's supposed to be. The post processing to untrained eyes (the majority of viewers), seems brighter, and more vibrant - Less washed out. They won't notice the loss of detail in shadows. I mean, People compare TVs based on how it looks in store mode, crank the artificial sharpness up to 75 and color temperature to vibrant, play games outside game mode, and want something to work with as little setup and effort on their end as possible. People will pay $100 for something to make their life easier, and believes it works great for no other reason than it was expensive. These people still use composite regularly, and think it looks good enough. There are masses who will shell out Benjamin's if they think it will help them frag more noobs. Throw the words 4K at them and they'll believe whatever you tell them. In a capitalistic society, someone will fill this niche and profit on the illusion of a better picture. While it seems like snake oil to some of us, many customers will be pleased with the effect. And if they're satisfied, then who are we to judge?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:42 am 



Joined: 04 Jul 2010
Posts: 246
You're exactly right on that statement.

When I saw the SoulCalibur 3 comparisons, I was almost sold right off the bat for one, but I think I'll decide to wait for further results. I'm not sure if I want to consider the hassle of getting the Extron as an alternative because I always see sellers on ebay with parts (power supplies, etc) missing.
_________________
I am not an alcoholic, I'm Drunk! Alcoholics go to AA meetings.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marseille mClassic
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:06 am 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 11888
Location: Germany
these two couldn't be more different. If you want an Extron, you don't want a mClassic and vice versa.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 84 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group