Power supplies causing image degradation

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Restart_Point
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Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by Restart_Point »

Hi, a while a go I bought a MK1 Mega Drive from Japan so bought a cheap new UK 3-pin PSU for it on Ebay, advertised as good for Mega Drive with correct ratings for voltage/amperage/tip polarity. It seemingly worked fine using my CRT and a Retro Gaming Cables 'Pack-a-punch' Scart cable, but when moved to using an LCD TV I noticed ghosting and interference / wavy lines etc. Then I got a different new 3rd party PSU and noticed that the image degradation was gone, so I was very happy and quite amazed to see how much a PSU can affect image quality.

Recently I introduced a Bandridge SVB7725 Scart switch (with trace mod) into my setup and was very dismayed to see I was now getting image degradation again, when going through the Bandridge. I changed my PSU yet again to a genuine vintage Sega Mega Drive MK1 model and this has now fixed the problem again.

Needless to say I have learnt some serious lessons about using good PSUs, I was wondering if anyone can explain a few things (I don't have a lot of electrical knowledge).

1. Why do some 3rd party PSUs cause image problems even if the stated ratings (voltage, apmerage, polarity etc) are all correct for the console?
2. Why are 3rd party PSUs so much smaller and lighter than the big heavy original (but clearly better quality transformer) ones?
3. Why would the Bandridge be 'incompatible' with a certain 3rd party PSU?
4. If I need to get more PSUs in the future, is it best to use an original Sega MK1 PSU (which I am also using for a PC Engine, Super Famicom, Master System and soon to be received AV Famicom) or are there new alternatives which are just as good / better that don't cost a lot more than a used Mega Drive PSU?

As mentioned before i'm in the UK.

Cheers!
Last edited by Restart_Point on Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by FBX »

Restart_Point wrote:
1. Why do some 3rd party PSUs cause image problems even if the stated ratings (voltage, apmerage, polarity etc) are all correct for the console?
2. Why are 3rd party PSUs so much smaller and lighter than the big heavy original (but clearly better quality transformer) ones?
3. Why would the Bandridge be 'incompatible' with a certain 3rd party PSU?
4. If I need to get more PSUs in the future, is it best to use an original Sega MK1 PSU (which I am also using for a PC Engine, Super Famicom, Master System and soon soon to be received AV Famicom) or are there new alternatives which are just as good / better that don't cost a lot more than a used Mega Drive PSU?
1. Likely due to the ripple/noise rating being too high in a switching power supply. In a linear power supply, you need to recap it to solve 90% of issues with those.
2. Because they are switching power supplies instead of linear ones. Linear ones have a large heavy transformer not needed by switching power supplies.
3. ???
4. Profit!
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Restart_Point
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by Restart_Point »

FBX wrote: 1. Likely due to the ripple/noise rating being too high in a switching power supply. In a linear power supply, you need to recap it to solve 90% of issues with those.
2. Because they are switching power supplies instead of linear ones. Linear ones have a large heavy transformer not needed by switching power supplies.
3. ???
4. Profit!

Thanks. So, is the general consensus that linear PSUs are best and cause less image problems?
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by Taiyaki »

What is a linear power supply? The ones that have a single rating instead of a range? Sorry for sounding so noobish, this isn't something I'm knowledgeable in.

That being said I've also noticed that power supplies can affect picture quality. I tend to favor originals.
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by Guspaz »

It's not about the voltage range, it's about how they do the voltage conversion.

Linear power supplies use a transformer to reduce the AC voltage, then a rectifier to convert to DC, then capacitors to smooth out the pulsed DC, then linear regulators to stabalize the voltage.

Switch-mode power supplies use a rectifier to convert the high voltage AC to DC first, then use a switching regulator to reduce the DC voltage by basically switching the circuit on and off very fast (the ratio between on and off time produces the ratio in voltage).

Linear power supplies produce less noisy and potentially more stable output.

Switch mode power supplies are dramatically smaller and more efficient.
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by AceFan84 »

I don't want to hijack the thread but along these lines are there some good options for third party power supplies? I have a cheap 2-in-1 that powers my NES and SNES and while I don't notice anything bad about it I'm pretty sure it's a cheaply made Chinese one and I would feel better if I had something else. I have limited outlets open on my surge protector and if I can I want to combine any systems together that I can.
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by makar1 »

AceFan84 wrote:I don't want to hijack the thread but along these lines are there some good options for third party power supplies? I have a cheap 2-in-1 that powers my NES and SNES and while I don't notice anything bad about it I'm pretty sure it's a cheaply made Chinese one and I would feel better if I had something else. I have limited outlets open on my surge protector and if I can I want to combine any systems together that I can.
The recommendation list is here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=64006

You can use the suggested "Tower of Power" PSU with appropriate splitters and barrel adapters to power multiple consoles.
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Restart_Point
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by Restart_Point »

AceFan84 wrote:I have limited outlets open on my surge protector and if I can I want to combine any systems together that I can.
makar1 wrote:You can use the suggested "Tower of Power" PSU with appropriate splitters and barrel adapters to power multiple consoles.

I use a single official Genesis PSU and a guitar effects pedal daisy-chain power cable which has a string of male barrel tips which are Genesis, SMS, PC Engine, SFC etc sized. Perfect for having them all connected to a single power socket when only needing to power one console at a time: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com ... L1500_.jpg The Genesis PSU powers all these fine. (be careful PAL SNES has reverse polarity)

I haven't tried this yet; but maybe a linear guitar effects pedal PSU with the correct specs is usable too? They appear to be very well priced.


.
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by AceFan84 »

makar1 wrote:
AceFan84 wrote:I don't want to hijack the thread but along these lines are there some good options for third party power supplies? I have a cheap 2-in-1 that powers my NES and SNES and while I don't notice anything bad about it I'm pretty sure it's a cheaply made Chinese one and I would feel better if I had something else. I have limited outlets open on my surge protector and if I can I want to combine any systems together that I can.
The recommendation list is here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=64006

You can use the suggested "Tower of Power" PSU with appropriate splitters and barrel adapters to power multiple consoles.
Awesome I will check this out, thank you!
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by makar1 »

Restart_Point wrote: I use a single official Genesis PSU and a guitar effects pedal daisy-chain power cable which has a string of male barrel tips which are Genesis, SMS, PC Engine, SFC etc sized. Perfect for having them all connected to a single power socket when only needing to power one console at a time: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com ... L1500_.jpg The Genesis PSU powers all these fine. (be careful PAL SNES has reverse polarity)

I haven't tried this yet; but maybe a linear guitar effects pedal PSU with the correct specs is usable too? They appear to be very well priced.
You're risking damaging your Genesis PSU by connecting it to multiple consoles as you'll quickly overload the unit with multiple consoles switched on.

The advantages of the Triad PSUs are that they have enough current to supply multiple consoles simultaneously, are UL/CE certified, and have been verified to not affect video quality. A high quality linear PSU would work fine too at the cost of efficiency and size.
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Restart_Point
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by Restart_Point »

makar1 wrote:
Restart_Point wrote: I use a single official Genesis PSU and a guitar effects pedal daisy-chain power cable which has a string of male barrel tips which are Genesis, SMS, PC Engine, SFC etc sized. Perfect for having them all connected to a single power socket when only needing to power one console at a time: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com ... L1500_.jpg The Genesis PSU powers all these fine. (be careful PAL SNES has reverse polarity)
You're risking damaging your Genesis PSU by connecting it to multiple consoles as you'll quickly overload the unit with multiple consoles switched on
I don't have any reason to have more than one console turned at a time, I just switch on the one I'm playing. Figured that was OK. I'd like to get something like that Triad at some point though
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by energizerfellow‌ »

makar1 wrote: The advantages of the Triad PSUs are that they have enough current to supply multiple consoles simultaneously, are UL/CE certified, and have been verified to not affect video quality. A high quality linear PSU would work fine too at the cost of efficiency and size.
Not only that, but those original OEM linear PSUs are old enough now to have failing capacitors that will not only affect output stability, but may try to burn your house down.
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by Taiyaki »

energizerfellow‌ wrote:
makar1 wrote: The advantages of the Triad PSUs are that they have enough current to supply multiple consoles simultaneously, are UL/CE certified, and have been verified to not affect video quality. A high quality linear PSU would work fine too at the cost of efficiency and size.
Not only that, but those original OEM linear PSUs are old enough now to have failing capacitors that will not only affect output stability, but may try to burn your house down.
Have you ever heard of someone's psu starting a fire though? I think chances are probably near impossible. It would have to be running, and I think any user would catch that and turn it off asap.

On the other hand I've never heard of good enough alternatives to OEM psu's that could provide zero issues with crt's (so sensitive to any kind of irregularity). I wish there were cause I'd change the NES, Super Famicom, Genesis psu's in a heartbeat.
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by energizerfellow‌ »

Taiyaki wrote: Have you ever heard of someone's psu starting a fire though? I think chances are probably near impossible. It would have to be running, and I think any user would catch that and turn it off asap.
Anybody old enough to have been working in IT back in the days of linear PSUs, specially at datacenter scale, has probably dealt with PSU or two that tried to start a fire from leaky electrolytic capacitors. Less of an issue on low-voltage consumer stuff, but still a thing you'll run across with older audio amplifiers.

For game consoles specifically, the OG Xbox has a thing for leaky caps and the early slim PS2s with external power bricks had a PSU recall specifically for fire risk, if memory serves.
Taiyaki wrote:On the other hand I've never heard of good enough alternatives to OEM psu's that could provide zero issues with crt's (so sensitive to any kind of irregularity). I wish there were cause I'd change the NES, Super Famicom, Genesis psu's in a heartbeat.
The noise from modern switch mode PSUs should be at a higher frequency than anything in an analog CRT. It's cheap noisy switching PSUs with poor filtering that are the issue.
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by FBX »

Taiyaki wrote:
On the other hand I've never heard of good enough alternatives to OEM psu's that could provide zero issues with crt's (so sensitive to any kind of irregularity). I wish there were cause I'd change the NES, Super Famicom, Genesis psu's in a heartbeat.
Have you tried a Triad switching PSU on a Genesis? You'd never tell the difference.
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by SamIAm »

I run FC, SFC, X'EYE w/32X, SGX w/SCD and a Duo-RX all from various switching power supplies that I picked up at junk shops. You just have to make sure to get the ones from reputable makers, because the cheap no-brand China stuff is indeed very noisy.

By the way, the true minimum voltage value that you'd want for one of these is probably 7.8 volts or so. You could maybe get away with 7.5V on a low-power system (7.5V switching adapters are relatively common). This has to do with the 7805 regulators inside these systems that output the 5V that everything actually runs on. 7805s needs a minimum of 6.8V to maintain a stable 5V output. However, between this and the AC adapter is typically a diode, which will cause a voltage drop of some hundreds of millivolts. It's good to have a little bit of margin in there.

The PS2 slim adapter is 8.5V and is easy to find used. The output is not noisy, and it has an amp rating of something crazy like 5A. I use one to power my SGX and SCD combo and have also tried it with my X'EYE and 32X combo. It works great.
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by rama »

+1 for the 8.5V PS2 slim power supply. It's the perfect voltage, has enough amperage and is built well.
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by Restart_Point »

SamIAm wrote:The PS2 slim adapter is 8.5V and is easy to find used. The output is not noisy, and it has an amp rating of something crazy like 5A. I use one to power my SGX and SCD combo and have also tried it with my X'EYE and 32X combo. It works great.
Do you reverse the polarity in some way? My UK PS2 Slim power supply is 8.5v 5.65A but it's center-positive, I wouldn't try using it as-is because Mega Drive, PCE, AV Famicom, Super Famicom etc require center-negative.
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by SamIAm »

Restart_Point wrote: Do you reverse the polarity in some way? My UK PS2 Slim power supply is 8.5v 5.65A but it's center-positive, I wouldn't try using it as-is because Mega Drive, PCE, AV Famicom, Super Famicom etc require center-negative.
The short answer is yes, I do reverse the polarity where needed.

The long answer is that only the AV Famicom and Super Famicom need it. The others are center-negative depending on the version of the system you're running (e.g. Mega Drive 2 vs. Mega Drive 1).
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by Link83 »

SamIAm wrote:The PS2 slim adapter is 8.5V and is easy to find used. The output is not noisy, and it has an amp rating of something crazy like 5A. I use one to power my SGX and SCD combo and have also tried it with my X'EYE and 32X combo. It works great.
Thats great to know you found the output isn't noisy. Out of curiosity who is the manufacturer of your PS2 Slim PSU? From my research there are at least 4 or 5 different versions of the PS2 Slim PSU (Although all of them should be suitable for use with the Sega 'tower of power')

First there are the two different Sony model numbers:-

SCPH-70100 = 8.5V 5.65A
SCPH-79100 = 8.5V 4.5A

The SCPH-79100 has a shorter cable and no ferrite bead, and was intended to be used with some of the later PS2 Slim's (Model number SCPH-7900x) since they featured reduced power consumption.

Beyond that Sony also used two different manufacturers who produced a few different revisions, Hipro Electronics (HP-AT048H03) and Delta Electronics (EADP-50VH, EADP-48CB, EADP-40CB) There are probably even a few more that I haven't seen (Especially regional variations)

It was some of the Hipro Electronics models which Sony had to recall, due to a potential fire risk for PSU's manufactured between August-December 2004 [2004.08-2004.12]
https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2012/cpsc- ... c-adaptors
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/sony- ... 0-6133098/
IIRC this was caused by a faulty component that Hipro Electronics had purchased from another supplier. If you purchase a PS2 Slim PSU its worth just checking the manufacturer and production date on the label to make sure its not one of these faulty units.

Purely anecdotal but in the PC arena I have read that Delta Electronics are a fairly well regarded PSU manufacturer, whereas Hipro Electronics are considered rather average/poor, although of course this could differ depending on the quality level they were contracted to provide.
Restart_Point wrote:
SamIAm wrote:The PS2 slim adapter is 8.5V and is easy to find used. The output is not noisy, and it has an amp rating of something crazy like 5A. I use one to power my SGX and SCD combo and have also tried it with my X'EYE and 32X combo. It works great.
Do you reverse the polarity in some way? My UK PS2 Slim power supply is 8.5v 5.65A but it's center-positive, I wouldn't try using it as-is because Mega Drive, PCE, AV Famicom, Super Famicom etc require center-negative.
The PS2 Slim power supply uses an EIAJ-03 plug (4.75mm/1.7mm) which is actually the exact same plug used for the Mega Drive 2 and 32X, which also happen to be centre positive, so you can actually use a PS2 Slim PSU to power a Mega Drive 2 directly! However the EIAJ-03 plug wont fit the Mega Drive 1, Mega-CD 1/2, AV Famicom or Super Famicom without an adapter of some kind (Which is good because those systems require a centre negative plug) so your best making your own adapter/splitter and ensuring you wire the 5.5mm/2.1m plugs as centre negative, and the 4.75mm/1.7mm plugs as centre positive.
Last edited by Link83 on Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by BuckoA51 »

I haven't tried this yet; but maybe a linear guitar effects pedal PSU with the correct specs is usable too? They appear to be very well priced.
Tried it, their output ampage is too low. I even approached some of the manufacturers see if they were interested in making higher amp versions but none of them were.
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by SamIAm »

Link83 wrote:Thats great to know you found the output isn't noisy. Out of curiosity who is the manufacturer of your PS2 Slim PSU? From my research there are around 5 different versions of the PS2 Slim PSU (Although all of them should be suitable for use with the Sega 'tower of power')

First there are the two different Sony model numbers:-

SCPH-70100 = 8.5V 5.65A
SCPH-79100 = 8.5V 4.5A

The SCPH-79100 has a shorter cable and no ferrite bead, and was intended to be used with some of the later PS2 Slim's (Model number SCPH-7900x) since they featured reduced power consumption.

Beyond that Sony also used two different manufacturers who produced a few different revisions, Hipro Electronics (HP-AT048H03) and Delta Electronics (EADP-50VH, EADP-48CB, EADP-40CB) There are probably even a few more that I haven't seen (Especially regional variations)

It was some of the Hipro Electronics models which Sony had to recall, due to a potential fire risk for PSU's manufactured between August-December 2004 [2004.08-2004.12]
https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2012/cpsc- ... c-adaptors
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/sony- ... 0-6133098/
IIRC this was caused by a faulty component that Hipro Electronics had purchased from another supplier. If you purchase a PS2 Slim PSU its worth just checking the manufacturer and production date on the label to make sure its not one of these faulty units.

Purely anecdotal but in the PC arena I have read that Delta Eletronics are a fairly well regarded PSU manufacturer, whereas Hipro Electronics are considered rather average/poor, although of course this could differ depending on the quality level they were contracted to provide.
Oh wow, I had no idea! I'll definitely be careful if I ever pick another one up.

The one I have already is a 70100 - it has the ferrite bead. I can check the model number later. FWIW, I had a look at it under load on an oscilloscope, and while I can't remember amplitude (or the frequency, for that matter) of the switching noise, I do remember thinking that it was low relative to other SMPUs that I had looked at.
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by Link83 »

SamIAm wrote:Oh wow, I had no idea! I'll definitely be careful if I ever pick another one up.

The one I have already is a 70100 - it has the ferrite bead. I can check the model number later. FWIW, I had a look at it under load on an oscilloscope, and while I can't remember amplitude (or the frequency, for that matter) of the switching noise, I do remember thinking that it was low relative to other SMPUs that I had looked at.
That would be great if you could check the model number :) Also, since you scoped the output might you know the mVp-p level? I have always been curious what the ripple and noise level is for the PS2 Slim PSU, but since I dont own a scope I haven't been able to check (and of course there are no datasheets available)

The PS2 Slim PSU is a very convenient solution for the Sega 'tower of power', since quality 9V power supplies with at least 3.25A are not very common in Europe. In the US the commonly recommended Triad PSU's are available with 9V 3.5A, but they appear to max out at 2.5A for the international versions :(
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by makar1 »

You can still use the US plug WSU series in Europe with a plug adapter if there's no equivalent from the WSX series.
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by FBX »

makar1 wrote:You can still use the US plug WSU series in Europe with a plug adapter if there's no equivalent from the WSX series.
Correct. The USA plug has an AC input range of 110V - 240V.
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by Link83 »

makar1 wrote:You can still use the US plug WSU series in Europe with a plug adapter if there's no equivalent from the WSX series.
Unfortunately its pretty expensive to buy them in Europe, for instance I just tried purchasing the Triad WSU090-3500-R on DigiKey UK and here's the basket total:-

Subtotal: £18.64
Shipping: £12.00
VAT: £6.13
Total: £36.77

...and then you need to get a travel adapter on top of that, and because they are usually designed to accommodate many different plug types they usually have a less than pleasing fit.

Mouser wont even ship it to the UK, displaying this notice:-
"Due to government regulations, Mouser is unable to sell this product in your country."

On the other hand the PS2 Slim PSU can be purchased for less than £10 on ebay. It also accepts 100V-240V and uses a standard figure-8 (C7) plug, so you can use any cable with a plug that matches your own countries.
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by werk91 »

The PS2 Slim PSU has a tip that works for MegaDrive/Genesis model 2 if I remember right, and I've even used it to power my MD model 2 when I was waiting on a PSU for it to arrive in the mail.
How simple is the polarity reverse process? Are there convertors for it? In my case the PS2 PSU won't work straight away as a multi power supply since I need it for Genesis mk1, SFC and Famicom. They all currently run of the same PSU with centre-negative plug and some splitters. Obviously only one console ever runs at the same time but I'd still like to improve the PSU itself since it is just a random cheap one.
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by Restart_Point »

werk91 wrote:How simple is the polarity reverse process? Are there convertors for it? In my case the PS2 PSU won't work straight away as a multi power supply since I need it for Genesis mk1, SFC and Famicom. They all currently run of the same PSU with centre-negative plug and some splitters. Obviously only one console ever runs at the same time but I'd still like to improve the PSU itself since it is just a random cheap one.
+1 on the question of how to reverse polarity of the tips with some kind of available adapter! I'm not confident to make my own, but I'm very intrigued to used my PS2 slim PSU as the master supply, currently I use a Mega Drive MK1 PSU with splitters
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by Link83 »

I dont think there are any 'off the shelf' adapters you can buy (If you can find a 9V power supply with 3.25A or higher output and a standard 5.5x2.1mm plug, then you could follow this guide)

IMO there are two ways to build an adapter for the PS2 Slim PSU, but both require soldering and a multimeter. First you need the DC splitter itself, for example:-
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-3-4-5-6-8- ... 1824941899
You will need to decide how many plugs you need, and keep in mind the limited distance between the plug ends (I only needed three plugs for use with the Mega Drive/Mega-CD/32X combo, so distance wasn't an issue)

If you have a Mega Drive 2 or 32X you will also need some 4.75x1.7mm plugs (EIAJ-03) These are typically listed as 4.8x1.7mm plugs by ebay sellers:-
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2x-1-7mm-x-4 ... 2180149128

The final piece depends on how you decide to connect the splitter to the PS2 Slim PSU. The simplest (But non-reversable) method involves chopping off the original 4.75x1.7mm plug and soldering on a 5.5x2.1mm plug instead. For example one of these plugs:-
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10pcs-5-5x2- ... 2356568434
Make sure to solder the new plug as centre negative to match the most common polarity on retro consoles.

The other option involves picking a matching socket for the PS2 Slim PSU's EIAJ-03 plug - this way you can use the PS2 Slim PSU completely unmodified. An example is the "Philmore 263" which is a 4.75x1.7mm socket:-
https://spectronics-inc.com/philmore-26 ... 5-lkg_263/
However it doesnt appear to have a lot of stockists nowadays. There are some PCB mount versions:-
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-Copper-4 ... 3529314050
but that won't lead to as nice of a finished product (I guess you could make some sort of small case/shell for it)

If you buy a 4.75x1.7mm socket, you can then remove the 5.5x2.1mm socket from the DC splitter and solder the new socket on, making sure to reverse the wires so that all the 2.1mm plugs end up with a centre negative output.

You then remove one or two 2.1mm plugs from the DC splitter (How many depends on if your using a MD1 or MD2) and solder on one or two 4.75x1.7mm plug as centre positive in their place.

The most important thing to remember is that all the 5.5x2.1mm plugs should be centre (tip) negative, and all the 4.75x1.7mm plugs should be centre (tip) positive. Always double check your connections with a multimeter to make sure you have connected everything the right way round and haven't shorted anything, and you should be good to go!

I hope that helps someone :)
Last edited by Link83 on Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Power supplies causing image degradation

Post by Restart_Point »

Holy cow Link83, that's a ton of awesome information there, thanks!!!
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