SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

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SamIAm
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by SamIAm »

Unseen wrote:AC signals don't just couple to other signals by induction, they can also couple by the mutual capacitance of the traces that are carrying them.
I didn't know about this. Thank you! I have another interesting thing to read up on. :)
paulb_nl wrote:
SamIAm wrote: I also replaced my APU's regulator and have mostly eliminated the big vertical stripe. What I haven't eliminated is a minor amount of diagonal noise. Again, I'd suggest looking at the FF6 title screen instead of LttP, because with all of my modifications so far, I get a perfect LttP title screen yet a slightly fuzzy FF6 title screen. I also still get weird artifacts near the top of the screen when the main FF6 logo appears.
I think the artifacts you are getting is CPU activity noise. Its more easily seen with the OSSC 256x240 optimized mode. I have captured a video with reverse LPF set to max so the noise can be clearly seen: https://youtu.be/syOW-w1q5UA

If you take a look at this video where they visualize the CPU instructions timing you can see the noise looks exactly like that. https://youtu.be/Q8ph2OVqZeM?t=8m18s

There is no noise at the DRAM refresh in the middle where the CPU is halted. Also what they call spinning where the CPU is waiting for something looks the same too with the diagonal lines. Once the game is waiting for controller input at the save file selection the diagonal bars go across the whole screen.
This is absolutely it. Just like you, I get no noise exactly in the middle during that DRAM refresh. The spinning pattern matches the general interference I see during the FF6 title screen as well.

I just now compared my two APU-01 systems. One has R59 and the RF unit removed, a new 7805, and a bunch of extra decoupling capacitors on the power rail, while the other is completely unmodified. Without a doubt, the unmodified system shows significantly more noise than the modified system. The modified system has virtually no vertical stripe, while the unmodified system has a plainly visible stripe as well as noise occurring at a different frequency together with the basic noise I see on the modified system. I suspect that removing R59 and smoothing the power rail each accomplished something, but the noise I'm seeing on the modified system is probably this CPU activity and not anything from PPU2.

It would be nice to figure out how to get APU boards to the same video quality level as the earlier boards. Anybody and his grandma could see that an unmodified APU looks awful during certain screens. Exactly what can be done, however, will probably need to be investigated by someone with more tools and knowledge than I have.

Thanks for the links and info! :)
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satori_hanzo
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by satori_hanzo »

Hi
Do you still adding serial numbers to the database?
I've bought a console with UN308481716 that have 1CHIP-01
Maybe this information is important to you. Sorry if not...

I also found these numbers that have 1CHIP-01:
UN273573225
UN300058558
UN303522957
UN306838406
UN307539579
UN602634504
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blizzz
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by blizzz »

Big thanks to Voultar and especially FBX for bringing it up in this thread. I lifted pin 3 on the PPU2 of my APU-01 Super Famicom and it fixed the diagonal stripes issue. It was quite an easy mod, even for a soldering noob like me.
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James-F
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by James-F »

Super Famicom: S18668559 SNS-CPU-GPM-01

@FBX
I am interested in seeing the timeline between SHVC-CPU-01, SNS-CPU-GPM-01, and GPM-02, but no one seems to have interest in them, nor submitted serial numbers.

The CPU-01 have quite a big failure rate and random CPU/PPU1/PPU2 revisions, GPM-01 always has 2/1/3 but still has CPU that is prone to dying but less frequently then of the CPU-01 model.
GPM-02 has new revision CPU and PPU2 which is also in the RGB-01/02 and APU-01.
In my opinion the GPM-01/2 are the best 3chip console to get since they are reliable and have no issues with video output (RGB and APU have checkerboard and jailbars)..

People please submit your "undesirable" super famicom GPM serial numbers too, the database seriously lacks these numbers for reference.
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Strider77
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by Strider77 »

Does Super Ghouls n Ghosts glitch out on all 1 chips?

I never knew this was an issue till I popped it in just now. It's the Japanese version btw.
Damn Tim, you know there are quite a few Americans out there who still lives in tents due to this shitty economy, and you're dropping loads on a single game which only last 20 min. Do you think it's fair? How much did you spend this time?
Ikaruga11
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by Ikaruga11 »

A few people on here have claimed that SuperFX games run slower on an SNES Jr. without providing any substantiating evidence. As a result, that misconception has been spreading like gospel slowly across various internet forums for a while. Much like the parroted yet disproven claim that the AGS-101 GBA SP ran at 50Hz, which it doesn't.

https://youtu.be/-YJLGwwITv8

Greenalink, a speedrunner who does thorough comparisons and reviews, posted this video which shows that a 1CHIP and 2CHIP run StarFox (and presumably other SuperFX games as well) at the exact same speed.
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Catzoo
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by Catzoo »

FBX wrote:APU is THE WORST version of the SNES console to have because of the diagonal subcarrier noise interference. Voultar found the fix by lifting pin #3 on the PPU2 chip, and I did this myself to test on my own APU (I kept it even though I have two different 1CHIP consoles). [...] Be warned you of course lose color on composite video output, but that's a small price to pay for cleaner RGB.
I just did it, and it worked great on my APU-CPU-01. Thanks Voultar & FBX !
BONKERS
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by BONKERS »

GeneraLight wrote:A few people on here have claimed that SuperFX games run slower on an SNES Jr. without providing any substantiating evidence. As a result, that misconception has been spreading like gospel slowly across various internet forums for a while. Much like the parroted yet disproven claim that the AGS-101 GBA SP ran at 50Hz, which it doesn't.

https://youtu.be/-YJLGwwITv8

Greenalink, a speedrunner who does thorough comparisons and reviews, posted this video which shows that a 1CHIP and 2CHIP run StarFox (and presumably other SuperFX games as well) at the exact same speed.
Doesn't make sense. How could they run slower when the processing is happening on the cartridge right?

The AGS-101 simply has slower pixel response times, but you see this often with Gameboy people. Claiming the refresh rate is lower, not the refresh rate is not lower. The response times of the displays are just shit. (Though many Gameboy games run at 30FPS which would cause blurring/double images on even a CRT. Ex: Pokemon, the two Gradius GB games.)
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Hypetreme
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by Hypetreme »

Hello. I just registered to the forums and wanted to let you know that I browsed some eBay auctions and examined all auctions for 1CHIP models. I wrote the serial numbers down and I'm going to add them to the googledoc
document we have here. I don't have a 1CHIP model myself yet but I just purchased one (PAL model) which I believe is going to be one.
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Hypetreme
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by Hypetreme »

I bought a Super Famicom with serial starting with S47 but it turned out to be an APU-CPU machine. Full serial is S24722876. So if you want to be sure to get a 1CHIP machine, you should check the serial at least starts with S475 as the serial number paragraph states. The image quality still is better than in my SHVC-CPU-01 SFC. It appears to be more noise free. I took some comparison pictures so you can see. I used OSSC with scanlines in 2x mode.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lybmhfhxoirx1 ... s.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/itoafa6wstwp6 ... 2.png?dl=0
Last edited by Hypetreme on Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Syntax
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by Syntax »

I always ask the seller to take a photo of the EXT port and look for the 3 dots. Cant go wrong that way.
SamIAm
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by SamIAm »

Is this the most recent version of the board-revisions document?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... utput=html

I seem to remember this being longer before. Did someone remove a bunch of entries? Who is maintaining it now, anyway?
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James-F
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by James-F »

This is the latest from FirebrandX:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 44/pubhtml

I don't why he removed it from his signature, if I didn't have the link I would not be able to find it.
It's not linked on his website either.
SamIAm
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by SamIAm »

I PMed these to FBX a while ago. They're confirmed serial numbers from 1chip auctions I was browsing on Yahoo.jp.

1CHIP-01
S24618767
S24781610
S24921826
S24962907
S24994446
S24999639

1CHIP-02
S25057788
S25078357
S25099039
S25165254
S25167317
S25175272
S25218728

1CHIP-03
S25204376
S25223396
S25236645


Also, this one that I bought turned out to be an APU-01:
SM11917733
James-F wrote:This is the latest from FirebrandX:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 44/pubhtml
If this is the latest version, then the numbers I posted above are interesting in the following ways:
S24618767 is the lowest 1chip
SM11917733 is the highest non-1chip in the SM series.
S25218728 is the highest 1chip-02

I think it would be nice for these to be part of the data. Whoever is maintaining the document, by all means, please add them.


Today, for 300 yen, I picked up a Super Famicom starting with S242. My money is on it being an APU or RGB model, but who knows? Maybe we'll get an interesting outlier. :)
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Hypetreme
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by Hypetreme »

Nice. I also added bunch of SFC serials on the document while ago which I found from yahoo auctions.

EDIT: Btw, I can add the serials you posted on the document later since I have the permission to edit it.
H6rdc0re
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by H6rdc0re »

I need some help. Yesterday I did a complete cap replacement aswell as did an upgrade to a 4.1b RGB bypass board from Videogameperfection on my NTSC US SNES Jr. Picture quality is really great but I have loud buzzing where there should be audio. I have no idea what so ever what’s causing this. I did add the 1000uf 25v cap on C58. Could that be causing it?
Williamzee
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by Williamzee »

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have question regarding shipping companies, which company is best one, as i know 2,3 like myus, global shopaholics, shipito etc. Can you please share your experience with any one. As am using https://globalshopaholics.com 1-2 times. Your sharing will be highly appreciated.
copy
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by copy »

paulb_nl wrote:
SamIAm wrote: I also replaced my APU's regulator and have mostly eliminated the big vertical stripe. What I haven't eliminated is a minor amount of diagonal noise. Again, I'd suggest looking at the FF6 title screen instead of LttP, because with all of my modifications so far, I get a perfect LttP title screen yet a slightly fuzzy FF6 title screen. I also still get weird artifacts near the top of the screen when the main FF6 logo appears.
I think the artifacts you are getting is CPU activity noise. Its more easily seen with the OSSC 256x240 optimized mode. I have captured a video with reverse LPF set to max so the noise can be clearly seen: https://youtu.be/syOW-w1q5UA

If you take a look at this video where they visualize the CPU instructions timing you can see the noise looks exactly like that. https://youtu.be/Q8ph2OVqZeM?t=8m18s

There is no noise at the DRAM refresh in the middle where the CPU is halted. Also what they call spinning where the CPU is waiting for something looks the same too with the diagonal lines. Once the game is waiting for controller input at the save file selection the diagonal bars go across the whole screen.
I just got done modding the heck out of my 1CHIP-02. The picture quality is 95% great, but I am occasionally seeing faint diagonal noise, especially on light blue backgrounds. Checking various threads, these mentions caught my eye.

I know you're discussing an APU revision system, but has anyone seen similar diagonal noise on a 1CHIP? If I'm indeed seeing CPU noise, is there any known way to eliminate or reduce it?

Everything I've already done to my 1CHIP-02:
Here's a pic of my mod work. Is it possible any of my wires could be picking up noise?
Spoiler
Image
Would appreciate any suggestions. It's frustrating because I've spent so much time and gotten it so close to perfection, only to have this last little issue.
rama
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by rama »

H6rdc0re wrote:I need some help. Yesterday I did a complete cap replacement aswell as did an upgrade to a 4.1b RGB bypass board from Videogameperfection on my NTSC US SNES Jr. Picture quality is really great but I have loud buzzing where there should be audio. I have no idea what so ever what’s causing this. I did add the 1000uf 25v cap on C58. Could that be causing it?
The cap is unlikely to cause audio (or any other) issues.
Did the console always do this? Have you tried a different cable?

@copy:
It might be your power supply. Try using a different one, preferably a modern supply with 8.5V to 10V output and 1A or more.
paulb_nl
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by paulb_nl »

copy wrote:I just got done modding the heck out of my 1CHIP-02. The picture quality is 95% great, but I am occasionally seeing faint diagonal noise, especially on light blue backgrounds. Checking various threads, these mentions caught my eye.

I know you're discussing an APU revision system, but has anyone seen similar diagonal noise on a 1CHIP? If I'm indeed seeing CPU noise, is there any known way to eliminate or reduce it?
Can you show a video of the noise you are seeing? So far I have only seen the CPU noise on an APU revision.
copy
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by copy »

paulb_nl wrote:
copy wrote:I just got done modding the heck out of my 1CHIP-02. The picture quality is 95% great, but I am occasionally seeing faint diagonal noise, especially on light blue backgrounds. Checking various threads, these mentions caught my eye.

I know you're discussing an APU revision system, but has anyone seen similar diagonal noise on a 1CHIP? If I'm indeed seeing CPU noise, is there any known way to eliminate or reduce it?
Can you show a video of the noise you are seeing? So far I have only seen the CPU noise on an APU revision.
Unfortunately I don't have a decent way to capture video, and I found it pretty much impossible to reproduce on my cell phone's camera.

However, I did discover that the exact same noise is present on another one of my systems, an SNES Mini with Voultar's RGB bypass installed by the man himself. This system doesn't have any of the other changes I did to the 1CHIP-02 (dejitter, vertical line fix, etc.), so I'm reassured that this isn't something I caused. Perhaps this is just normal for 1CHIPs/Minis.

I'm really curious if anyone else can see the noise too. The best example where I can see it is the title screen of The Magical Quest Starring Mickey Mouse. The light blue background here shows it well. Also, looking at it much closer tonight, I can see that the noise is entirely located on the right half of the screen. Interesting.
paulb_nl
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by paulb_nl »

copy wrote:
I'm really curious if anyone else can see the noise too. The best example where I can see it is the title screen of The Magical Quest Starring Mickey Mouse. The light blue background here shows it well. Also, looking at it much closer tonight, I can see that the noise is entirely located on the right half of the screen. Interesting.
I have tested The Magical Quest on a few consoles:
US 1-CHIP-01, Mods: C11 330nF, No noise
US Jr, Mods: S-RGB, C11 470nF, No noise
SFC 1-CHIP-01, Mods:none, Wavy noise.

The Super Famicom does not have C11 replaced but it also uses a different power supply. (Official Japanese)
rama
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by rama »

Again, this is probably a power supply issue.
This kind of noise is not normal for any revision of SNES, modded or not.

Edit:
Oh, just in case: The cable surely doesn't use CVBS for Sync, right?
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Hypetreme
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by Hypetreme »

SamIAm wrote:I PMed these to FBX a while ago. They're confirmed serial numbers from 1chip auctions I was browsing on Yahoo.jp.

1CHIP-01
S24618767
S24781610
S24921826
S24962907
S24994446
S24999639

1CHIP-02
S25057788
S25078357
S25099039
S25165254
S25167317
S25175272
S25218728

1CHIP-03
S25204376
S25223396
S25236645


Also, this one that I bought turned out to be an APU-01:
SM11917733
James-F wrote:This is the latest from FirebrandX:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 44/pubhtml
If this is the latest version, then the numbers I posted above are interesting in the following ways:
S24618767 is the lowest 1chip
SM11917733 is the highest non-1chip in the SM series.
S25218728 is the highest 1chip-02

I think it would be nice for these to be part of the data. Whoever is maintaining the document, by all means, please add them.


Today, for 300 yen, I picked up a Super Famicom starting with S242. My money is on it being an APU or RGB model, but who knows? Maybe we'll get an interesting outlier. :)
Took me awhile but I now added the serials in the sheet.
SamIAm
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by SamIAm »

Hypetreme wrote:Took me awhile but I now added the serials in the sheet.
Great! The more data, the merrier.

Here are a few more from ebay (JP Super Famicoms):

1CHIP-01
S24756311
S24769204
S24782067
S24815692
S24905416
S24915074
S24995932
S25003262
S25016029
S25022342
S25024182
S25039120


1CHIP-02
S25171112
SM12052734
SM12058725

1CHIP-03
S25246324
copy
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by copy »

rama wrote:Again, this is probably a power supply issue.
This kind of noise is not normal for any revision of SNES, modded or not.

Edit:
Oh, just in case: The cable surely doesn't use CVBS for Sync, right?
I don't use sync-on-composite. I see the noise/interference/whatever with csync and sync-on-luma cables, both from Retro Access.

I have tested with multiple power supplies: OEM Genesis with replaced capacitor, Triad, and PWR+. This surely rules out the power supply as the cause.

And to reiterate, the same noise is apparent on both on a 1CHIP-02 and SNN-CPU-01.

Anyway, it is a subtle enough problem that it's not visible the vast majority of the time, so I will probably live with it. The mystery of it does bug me, though.
SamIAm
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by SamIAm »

I'm finally getting out of the SFC buying game. Here is my last submission of serial numbers:

RGB-02
S24279380

APU-01
S24559707
S24602776
S24644939
S24676606
S24971855
SM11883252

1CHIP-01
SM11987458
SM12017419

1CHIP-02
S25130335
SM12025751

Happy hunting, everyone. :)
xthechar
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by xthechar »

I posted this on the dejitter thread but I think it's more relevant here:

The more pervasive problem I've faced with my SNES Jr is random-looking background noise in large regions of dark, uniform color. It is worst by far with desaturated colors that are around or below 50% brightness or so. Any brighter and the noise seems to go away (or get washed out) and any dimmer and it's hard to see the noise (but perhaps still there). I have tried a number of solutions to remedy this (changed the caps in my SNES, changed the voltage regulator, added caps to the voltage regulator, used 1st party and recommended switching 3rd party PSU adapter, used outlet without anything else plugged in anywhere near it, used (2 different) isolating transformers for plugging in PSU, tried different capture cards, the list goes on and on). I can upload a video of the noise I'm getting if anyone is curious. It's not noticeable except for in very specific areas, the region has to be a completely uniform color of the nature I describe above, and fairly large of a region at that, for it to be apparent, but it's something I wish I could fix.

I bought my 7374 RGB mod board from RetroFixes and I don't think it has a toggle-able low pass filter. In fact it doesn't look exactly like the Borti/Voultar boards I see most commonly recommended. I doubt that this is the problem, and I'd hate to desolder and replace the RGB mod board to no effect, but if someone thinks the one I used could be causing the noise, I may make that effort. Any other ideas that people have would be greatly appreciated -- I'm willing to try just about anything!

6x oversampling capture, point downscaling to 256 before upscaling:

Image

6x oversampling capture, without point downscaling:

Image

I have tried oversampling less, but my card (Magewell Pro Capture HDMI) won't let me go below 3x oversampling. 3x, 4x, 5x, and 6x all look about the same but for some reason it's easiest to dial in the phase using 6x oversampling, horizontal res of 256 and 512 both look good at 6x, and this still keeps me above my final horizontal res (1184) but within 2x of it. The point downscaling to 256 makes the pixel edges sharper, but seems to increase the visiibility of the noise by quite a bit. Of course, the video encoding washes out the apparent difference a lot -- I will post screenshots of the raw capture when I am back at my setup.

I use 1184x896 for my final resolution, since I find that SNES looks better at a little less than 4:3 and this allows for pixel-perfect vertical scaling and reasonable horizontal scaling (every 8th pixel in the native res image, or 37th pixel in the upscaled image, has a non-averaged boundary).
rama
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by rama »

Super Nintendo's are a little noisy right at the source, but usually the filters in the receiving devices take care of that.
From your description, it sounds like your capture card isn't filtering effectively.
This is odd though, as oversampling is very good at removing random noise.

You should check your THS7374 mod board once more.
The chip has a filter bypass pin that allows you to select a 9MHz filter (otherwise, the full 150MHz bandwidth is being used).

But since oversampling on the capture card doesn't appear to help, it could just be noise that develops on the card itself.
RGB0b
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Re: SNES/Famicon PCB Revisions and RGB Video

Post by RGB0b »

@xthechar - That's just analog video noise. The only way to get rid of that completely is to use MiSTer or the Analogue Super NT.
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