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 Post subject: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 9:01 am 


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I'm looking to find an older TV. Like around 32 to 43 inches.
Something with decent input lag, and a good picture.
I've had my current TV for 6 years, and I think I may want to have a backup on hand.

I'm trying to avoid 4k at the moment, because I hear a lot of people say 720 looks kinda iffy on it. I would just get a TV like the one I have, but it's not available.
Anything out there? I know I'm probably looking for something from 5 years ago. But if I can get a brand new Trinitron 10 years after they stopped making them, I think I can find this.
Probably on EBay or something like that.
I feel like I may need to have a few back up TVs for 720, just like my back up CRTs. God, I hate technology.
Also, I'm going for something older as it seems like anything in this territory made recently is going to be cheaply made, or is going to be a PC monitor (which isn't what I'm looking for).

Help? Links?

Sony/Samsung would be nice. I'd like to avoid budget style TVs like the Vizio (no offense to Vizio users...I have one of those too).
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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:29 am 


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720p can look noticeably better on 4k sets than 1080p ones, because the resolution is a perfect integer scale of 720p. Maybe people who claim otherwise have their settings (sharpness in particular) set too high?


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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 12:01 pm 


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Konsolkongen wrote:
720p can look noticeably better on 4k sets than 1080p ones, because the resolution is a perfect integer scale of 720p. Maybe people who claim otherwise have their settings (sharpness in particular) set too high?


That is a very good possibility. Sharpness will destroy your picture.

Still, if anyone could recommend something that I was asking for, I'd appreciate it.
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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 2:11 pm 


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Sure, I had the Sony W905A I believe it was called. It was Sony’s top of the line 1080p TV that year and it was brilliant. Super low lag and great black levels (with local dimming). It also had the best 480p scaling on component (HDMI was much softer) I have ever seen on a TV. It was so good that I stopped using my Lumagen VisionPro HDP for scaling because the difference was insignificant.


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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 3:28 pm 



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sony kdl-32705 / 42705 (B suffix for black bezel vs silver) ... old by now mayhaps you can get a nice price if you can still find. I think a touch newer than the 905s just going by hdtvtest dates ...?

With 4:4:4 reproduction in game mode and low input lag @ reasonably price, personally went for a sony kdl-32705 quite a few years ago for home pc use, and picked up another one recently 6/9 months(?) ago.

Watch out for some of the game mode options - iirc the firmware update added a newer game mode (don't worry old game mode is still there too labelled game mode (original) or something) whose colour + sharpness (? something like that) I didn't like... sorry been a while since been in the menu, and it's kind of got 2 menus - mode + then options... or something like that.

https://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/kdl42w7 ... 233639.htm

Only Criticism:
I don't know the dot pitch offhand, but it's not perfect if too close and want to use for work, better than many tvs, but not as good as most decent monitors. Not a problem if looking at whole screen/typical gaming position, but probably can do better if you're modelling/pshop/video editing type... but probably not for the same price...


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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 4:03 pm 



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Yeah to be honest 4K tv's just blow me away, HDR is amazing and games seem to scale incredibly well. I could never go back to a plain 1080p tv, this is not like the switch from crt's to lcd/plasma.

Looks like Gray got you covered though for the 1080p one.


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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 4:20 pm 


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I'm looking for these TVs, and they seem to be European. Do they have the same name as in the US?
I also can't seem to find them available.
Any links would be really helpful.

EDIT: That first Sony one has the same name in the US as the UK one. But I can't find it to be available.
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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 4:30 pm 


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Taiyaki wrote:
Yeah to be honest 4K tv's just blow me away, HDR is amazing and games seem to scale incredibly well. I could never go back to a plain 1080p tv, this is not like the switch from crt's to lcd/plasma.

Looks like Gray got you covered though for the 1080p one.



You play any 360 games on it? PS3?
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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 4:41 pm 


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You won't find them, and nobody cares about reviewing 1080 TVs anymore. These days there's a good choice of 32" monitors, whther in 1080p, 1440p or 4K.
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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 4:51 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
You won't find them, and nobody cares about reviewing 1080 TVs anymore. These days there's a good choice of 32" monitors, whther in 1080p, 1440p or 4K.


Recommend me a good 32 inch monitor. 1080, please. I'm certainly interested.
And this may be a dumb question, but a 32 inch monitor is the same as a 32 inch TV? I know, I know. It's just that I have a 27 inch monitor, and it's a lot smaller than my 32 inch TV.
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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 5:06 pm 


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Some we've mentioned here in the past for instance the one I currently use, the ViewSonic VX3211-mh (or its 'brother' VX3276-mhd-2) both are IPS, the thinner bezel 'brother' is more likely to show manufacturing flaws like bleeding backlight though.

And if you prefer VA panels the Samsung S32F351 (aka LS32F351FUNXZA) very nice contrasted picture with wide-enough viewing angles for a VA, but less reactive than an IPS of course, and not as versatile (doesn't support as many resolution modes as the ViewSonics)

I'll let you look into the features etc.

You'll find plenty of similar monitors from Acer, Philips, ASUS, AOC, etc but I haven't tried them myself so I can't speak for the quality and performance.
Tip: avoid the curved variants.


PS: holy shit! on my local amazon the VX3211-mh is currently at 177€
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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 5:30 pm 


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evil_ash_xero wrote:
And this may be a dumb question, but a 32 inch monitor is the same as a 32 inch TV?

Sorry for double-posting but I forgot about that: Well monitors don't have a TV tuner or remote obviously, hardly any fancy picture processing, no analogue inputs like component if that matters, but there's often a VGA.
And don't expect nice speakers, assuming there are any...
Otherwise they're the same thing, basically a LCD with a HDMI input or two, some feature DP and a handful even FreeSync (tho rarely)
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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 6:20 pm 



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evil_ash_xero wrote:
I'm looking for these TVs, and they seem to be European. Do they have the same name as in the US?
I also can't seem to find them available.
Any links would be really helpful.

EDIT: That first Sony one has the same name in the US as the UK one. But I can't find it to be available.


Sorry, assumed was the same I think it must be the 700b over there:
https://www.sony.com/electronics/suppor ... 0b#manuals

... finding one might be tricky - tv's are out and in ever year :/

Monitors usually have less post processing features along with all the other tv specific stuff. Ofc some more advanced features tend to get their start on monitors first, but doesn't mean they get widespread until tvs adopt them...

Generally smaller sizes with finer dot pitch in screen, and perhaps reduced brightness/contrast ranges by default for efficiency.

As long as it's not trash almost exclusively 4:4:4 due to commonly sampling text... although things are better now tv's do tend to start cutting corners on this stuff - especially when bumping down to game modes.

Due to supply and demand you tend to pay a premium for larger monitor sizes - perhaps partly due to fabrication techniques, but I suspect just lack of demand + efficiency of scale when setting up a line/parts sourcing - most people want monitors to fit modestly onto a desk, use less power, make less heat etc. etc. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 7:11 pm 


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evil_ash_xero wrote:
I'm looking to find an older TV. Like around 32 to 43 inches.


32"? What will you be using it for? Because for a TV, I would advise to get a bigger size, like 46", 52" or 55".

What condition are you looking to buy the TV in? Used condition should be relatively easy, for new condition that might be more difficult.


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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 4:53 am 



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Konsolkongen wrote:
720p can look noticeably better on 4k sets than 1080p ones, because the resolution is a perfect integer scale of 720p. Maybe people who claim otherwise have their settings (sharpness in particular) set too high?


Just because it's a 3x3 doesn't mean it's automagically going to look better. It still has to be scaled well. And most TV scaling for resolutions like 720p is pretty mediocre.
It's not like these Tvs do a nearest neighbor scale.
Realistically here's what 720p is going to look like on most TVs blown up to 4k.
http://u.cubeupload.com/MrBonk/720p4k.jpg (This is from a lossless PNG screenshot)
I am of the opinion that unless you are emulating a CRT using a shader, or are doing nearest neighbor integer scaling. The less upscaling needing to be done, the better it looks.
I have a 32" 768p TV that is great for watching DVDs on. The upscale to 720p from 480p (And sadly then to 768p) looks better to me than upscaling on higher resolution displays.


If you are looking for a good 1080p display and don't care about 4:4:4 chroma subsampling (Or calibration because it can't properly display a PC signal. Making calibration using a PC impossible). Vizio's current D series 1080p sets are pretty decent. The 50" model is a VA panel with decent contrast and no super obvious horrible smearing of low transitions in motion. Input lag doesn't seem high at all from what I remember when testing it.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/VIZIO-50-Cla ... /146660525
By tweaking the resolution sent to the display (pushing it out of spec slightly) you can cause the firmware to properly detect PC resolutions and display 4:4:4. But then you lose all of the display's calibration controls. Outside of 4:4:4 mode a signal from a PC looks awful, regardless of RGB range everything is blown out looking. I had to return this one as the downsides were just too much. Nothing less to be expected of Vizio and their 1080p TVs. Even their 1080p Tvs that featured a VGA in could properly display 4:4:4 most of the time. They would randomly work in 4:4:4 one day and then be totally broken the next.

I just bought the Time Sleuth Lag Tester and i'd like to buy the e Sharp LC-50LB601U
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sharp-50-c ... Id=6177701 to see if it properly displays 4:4:4 and detects PC resolutions properly as well as input lag and calibrate the display. (It claims a 7000:1 Contrast Ratio which if in the neighborhood is great for an SDR display without local dimming causing problems). Advanced calibration should be available through the Roku mobile app. (Though things are not clear about this. I am emailing Roku to see if calibration through the app is available on 1080p TVs. Probably not sadly. Which is insanely frustrating)
It doesn't seem to offer any judder reduction settings though for playing 24p sources outside of a 24p signal.
There is a smaller version of this display I assume would be similar. (43")

I currently have a Sony W610B/2 and this is a 60" display. But it has a lot of problems. The subpixel structure is not normal, leaving some strange uneven gaps in pixels that can be noticeable when you are not used to it. The grey uniformity is awful with really bad DSE on horizontal and vertical pans. And the motion blur on the low end of the grayscale is very bad. Leading to lots of smearing in dark areas. Which sucks because the software features (Lots of different ways to try and improve lower resolution sources and different sharpening and a great de-banding feature) and calibration controls are great.

As for monitors, the Samsung S32F351 https://web.archive.org/web/20171214095 ... anels.html as mentioned is supposed to be an excellent VA monitor with very high contrast. You'll have to find one on Ebay however.
Keep in mind too, that Monitors will usually lack speakers and advanced calibration features like white balance, and the ability to accept 24p sources (or properly play 24p sources over 60p resolutions without judder. Though if you use MadVR you can just use the Framerate Conversion option.


Last edited by BONKERS on Wed May 15, 2019 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 5:39 am 



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evil_ash_xero wrote:
Taiyaki wrote:
Yeah to be honest 4K tv's just blow me away, HDR is amazing and games seem to scale incredibly well. I could never go back to a plain 1080p tv, this is not like the switch from crt's to lcd/plasma.

Looks like Gray got you covered though for the 1080p one.



You play any 360 games on it? PS3?

Not very often though but both are hooked up to the 4K tv as well, and because of the improvements made to the technology color, contrast and brightness the picture amazes me. There is no problem with the upscaling in my experience and 720p seems to adapt quite well.


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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 6:31 am 


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BONKERS wrote:
the Samsung S32F351 ... You'll have to find one on Ebay however.

missed that it's EOL in NA already.
I've noticed other 1080 VA's around but I have no idea if they share the same panel or if they're sensibly different.

Quote:
the Sharp LC-50LB601U ... (It claims a 7000:1 Contrast Ratio

Wew, not bad if true.
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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 8:05 am 



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BONKERS wrote:
Realistically here's what 720p is going to look like on most TVs blown up to 4k.
http://u.cubeupload.com/MrBonk/720p4k.jpg (This is from a lossless PNG screenshot)

That's useless without a comparison image. A better way to show the difference you're going to get if you switch from a 1080p display to a 2160p display for 720p content:

First we have a 720p scaled to 1080p then integer scaled to 2160p, then canvas sized down to 1080p:
http://u.cubeupload.com/ZellSF/1080p.png
Second we have 720p scaled to 2160p then canvas scaled down to 1080p:
http://u.cubeupload.com/ZellSF/2160p.png

Since both the canvas sizing and integer scaling is lossless, the only difference you're seeing here is the difference between scaling from 720p>1080p and 720p>2160p.

The 1080p image is more aliased, but sharper. The 2160p image has less aliasing, but it softer. Obviously not a perfect comparison, the pixel structure of the 1080p display is going to factor in quite a bit, but for scaling that's the only difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 10:48 am 



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I was just giving some thought to a topic like this, but since pc displays were mentioned I keep thinking I'd love a 4k panel thanks to how much more accurate it is to scale with ossc due to the pixel count without a scaler. Then again there's none of the sharpness controls that allow games to look any closer to how they were on a crt, so that's bunk.

Same for interlace.
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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 6:02 pm 


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The Samsung S32F351, I can get. I think. I see some with FUN at the end. Is that a different version?

I would prefer to get a TV, and honestly closer to 40 inches or so. The reason I would like a TV, is basically you have more control over the picture and you have more inputs.

This does look good though.

Still holding out a little bit for the TV I'd like. A 32 inch monitor could always come in handy though, to say the least.
Can you change the base? It doesn't seem to be able to spin into portrait mode.
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Last edited by evil_ash_xero on Wed May 15, 2019 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 6:06 pm 


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Lawfer wrote:
evil_ash_xero wrote:
I'm looking to find an older TV. Like around 32 to 43 inches.


32"? What will you be using it for? Because for a TV, I would advise to get a bigger size, like 46", 52" or 55".

What condition are you looking to buy the TV in? Used condition should be relatively easy, for new condition that might be more difficult.


I'm not a huge fan of high def gaming on large screens. Some games don't have great anti-aliasing, and I like to keep jaggies and crap under control. My game room is pretty packed, and I can only sit so far from the TV. As I said, I would really like to move up to maybe a 40 or whatever. That would do. The 32 is a bit small. Now, I do have a monitor right beside the TV to play shmups on. So, to have a 32 inch monitor and a 40 something inch TV would be great.

And yeah, totally looking to get it new.
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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 6:20 pm 



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evil_ash_xero wrote:
Still holding out a little bit for the TV I'd like. A 32 inch monitor could always come in handy though, to say the least.
Can you change the base? It doesn't seem to be able to spin into portrait mode.

If the information on Newegg for the S32F351 is representative, it looks like it can be attached to a 75x75mm VESA mount, so you'd just need to find a stand or monitor arm with a mounting plate that can accommodate 75x75mm as well as rotate. Only other thing I'd take note of is that the mount point isn't centered on the back of the monitor, so it won't be centered on the stand or mount when rotated to portrait.

evil_ash_xero wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of high def gaming on large screens. Some games don't have great anti-aliasing, and I like to keep jaggies and crap under control. My game room is pretty packed, and I can only sit so far from the TV.

Have you considered an mCable? I haven't used one myself, but I've heard it produces good results with 5th- and 6th-generation 3D games.


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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 7:34 pm 


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evil_ash_xero wrote:
The Samsung S32F351, I can get. I think. I see some with FUN at the end. Is that a different version?

I would prefer to get a TV, and honestly closer to 40 inches or so. The reason I would like a TV, is basically you have more control over the picture and you have more inputs.

This does look good though.

Still holding out a little bit for the TV I'd like. A 32 inch monitor could always come in handy though, to say the least.
Can you change the base? It doesn't seem to be able to spin into portrait mode.

Dunno about the p/n differences (maybe regional ID?), I just remember some product pages said it features FreeSync, some not, but neither Samsung nor resellers were ever clear about that, just assume it doesn't.

Rotation: it can with a 3rd party stand tall enough for 32", there are some on amazon like of the VIVO brand.
BUT, the mounting holes aren't located at the very center of the back, which means it's not that easy/convenient rotation, the display will be a little off either to right or the left.

Anyway take your time, there are other fishes in the sea, the S32F351 has a good panel and good performance, but it is otherwise very bare.
And yeah 32" isn't that much bigger than 27" IMO.

PS: image processing on TVs; don't expect very good results from that, I've almost never seen a TV's processing make games look better than they are with everything off.
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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:42 am 


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nmalinoski wrote:
evil_ash_xero wrote:
Still holding out a little bit for the TV I'd like. A 32 inch monitor could always come in handy though, to say the least.
Can you change the base? It doesn't seem to be able to spin into portrait mode.

If the information on Newegg for the S32F351 is representative, it looks like it can be attached to a 75x75mm VESA mount, so you'd just need to find a stand or monitor arm with a mounting plate that can accommodate 75x75mm as well as rotate. Only other thing I'd take note of is that the mount point isn't centered on the back of the monitor, so it won't be centered on the stand or mount when rotated to portrait.

evil_ash_xero wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of high def gaming on large screens. Some games don't have great anti-aliasing, and I like to keep jaggies and crap under control. My game room is pretty packed, and I can only sit so far from the TV.

Have you considered an mCable? I haven't used one myself, but I've heard it produces good results with 5th- and 6th-generation 3D games.


Never heard of an mCable, actually. Do explain, if you don't mind.
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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 1:09 pm 



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mCable was famous for A few minutes because it does subtle anti-aliasing for 720 P or 1080 P games that don’t have it and did so with zero lag or very close.

If you want a new 1080P TV, I would definitely look to a used TV since the best modern TVs are all 4K.

I’m very happy with my Panasonic Plasma TH-42PZ80U. Its input lag is the lowest I’ve ever heard of for a plasma.

I can’t help but agree with the crowd, here, though. Unless you want a plasma there are essentially no advantages (lag, contrast, scaling) to an older TV other than cost.


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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 1:25 pm 



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If you want to display 720p content why not just buy a TV with a resolution of 1360x768? Have I missed something? I have two, a 40 inch Sony (VA panel) and a 26 inch Hitachi (IPS panel). The scaling from 1280x720 to 1360x768 is imperceptible. 1080p downscaled to 720p (the only 1080p content I ever display comes from a Nintendo Switch) using an Extron HD HD also looks sensational.


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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:20 pm 


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strayan wrote:
If you want to display 720p content why not just buy a TV with a resolution of 1360x768? Have I missed something?


1360x768 still won't give a good picture for 1280x720 due to the fact that it's not native. Might as well get a 1080p TV which will offer better specs and get 720p content on it as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:50 pm 



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Lawfer wrote:
strayan wrote:
If you want to display 720p content why not just buy a TV with a resolution of 1360x768? Have I missed something?


1360x768 still won't give a good picture for 1280x720 due to the fact that it's not native. Might as well get a 1080p TV which will offer better specs and get 720p content on it as well.


It gives good picture, trust me. My Sony TV will display 1:1 or fill. I can’t tell the difference on anything but test patterns and even then it’s close.

Here’s 720p close up https://imgur.com/a/WhZyXzC


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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 3:35 pm 



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strayan wrote:
Lawfer wrote:
strayan wrote:
If you want to display 720p content why not just buy a TV with a resolution of 1360x768? Have I missed something?


1360x768 still won't give a good picture for 1280x720 due to the fact that it's not native. Might as well get a 1080p TV which will offer better specs and get 720p content on it as well.


It gives good picture, trust me. My Sony TV will display 1:1 or fill. I can’t tell the difference on anything but test patterns and even then it’s close.

Here’s 720p close up https://imgur.com/a/WhZyXzC

For modern, 720p-native games, I'm sure it looks fine; but how does it look with an older 240p 2D game line-tripled to 720p? Does it still have razor-sharp edges?


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 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 5:25 pm 



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nmalinoski wrote:
For modern, 720p-native games, I'm sure it looks fine; but how does it look with an older 240p 2D game line-tripled to 720p? Does it still have razor-sharp edges?


Of course it does. Ultrahdmi n64 integer scaling 240p to 720p displayed at 1:1 is a sight to behold. Ditto snes classic.


Last edited by strayan on Fri May 17, 2019 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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