Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

The place for all discussion on gaming hardware
L-Train
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:09 am

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by L-Train »

mheyman wrote:Can anyone confirm which is true?
I purchased a board from Tim in May 2018 and it came with the deblur firmware, no flashing necessary.
User avatar
unmaker
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 7:27 am
Contact:

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by unmaker »

mheyman wrote:I'm sorry I know this has been asked a few times but I just want to make sure I am getting this right.

I recently installed Tim's board and was curious about the de-blur feature. His site says this:
Boards sold after 27/12/2016 now come with software v1.1 which includes an optional 'de-blur' feature. This gives the video a pleasing sharp pixel look. The feature is disabled by default but can be enabled by connecting the the pad labelled A to the pad labelled G (for ground). If you use it I recommend a connecting a switch as few games don't look good while de-blur is enabled. This feature comes courtesy of Borti4938, who has written alternate software for the N64RGB.
It sounds like the firmware is updated on boards purchased after 2016 but I've read on here that the board actually does need to be flashed with a newer firmware. Can anyone confirm which is true?
I don't know what fw comes flashed with Tim's board and if it comes with other features such as 15bit color mode, slow slew rate, etc. Borti has updated his fw ~4 months ago and you can see all the features here:

https://github.com/borti4938/n64rgb/tre ... eralRGBmod

and here to grab the fw:

https://github.com/borti4938/n64rgb/tre ... es/viletim

"sw" if you're using a physical switch and "igr" if you're using in-game routines with your controller.
strayan
Posts: 671
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:33 pm

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by strayan »

Why are the integer scaling options disabled when running in 480p with ultrahdmi?

If anyone is interested I'm experimenting with old plasma TVs at the moment with retro consoles and am picking up a Hitachi 42PD960DTA on the weekend for testing at 576i/p. This Hitachi panel uses something called 'ALIS' (interlaced scan) technology which apparently uses the same fluorescent phosphors as conventional Cathode Ray Tube (CRT). It has a resolution of 1024x1080 and I figured it would be interesting to test it with ultrahdmi and gcvideo because I doubt anyone has done it before. I figured the 1024 horizontal resolution would be good for anamorphic PAL GCN (720x576) interlaced games since it squares up nicely with 1024 as would the 1080 vertical resolution because of the interlaced ALIS panel. I will report back with results. I'm very curious to know how it handles interlaced content in particular since I'm assuming no deinterlacing is required?

The last plasma set I bought has a setting called "Vertical filter" (which I'm assuming is just a monitor side V-blur toggle) which when enabled seems to clean up the unsightly interlacing artifacts in the Goldeneye menus for example. Win!

Edit: copping a lot of flack for all the TVs piling up around the house naturally.
Last edited by strayan on Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:22 pm, edited 8 times in total.
User avatar
Kez
Posts: 818
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:09 am

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Kez »

strayan wrote:Why are the integer scaling options disabled when running in 480p with ultrahdmi?

I think 480p is just line doubled with no scaling anyway, so it is integer scaled by definition. At higher res you can choose between integer scaling (i.e. line multiplication) or proper upscaling (line 2x to 480p and scaled from there).
strayan
Posts: 671
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:33 pm

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by strayan »

Kez wrote:
strayan wrote:Why are the integer scaling options disabled when running in 480p with ultrahdmi?

I think 480p is just line doubled with no scaling anyway.
Cheers. It certainly looks like it's line doubled.
strayan
Posts: 671
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:33 pm

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by strayan »

I’m really confused about the way ultrahdmi handles interlaced content when set to output 480p and would like to know if it’s possible to replicate the way ultrahdmi handles interlaced signals for all retro consoles so I can take advantage of the higher resolution interlaced modes sometimes available. Whatever it does looks stunning on my 480p plasma which no combing artefacts which other people seem to complain about.

Can anyone break it down for me?
User avatar
bobrocks95
Posts: 3460
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:27 am
Location: Kentucky

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by bobrocks95 »

strayan wrote:I’m really confused about the way ultrahdmi handles interlaced content when set to output 480p and would like to know if it’s possible to replicate the way ultrahdmi handles interlaced signals for all retro consoles so I can take advantage of the higher resolution interlaced modes sometimes available. Whatever it does looks stunning on my 480p plasma which no combing artefacts which other people seem to complain about.

Can anyone break it down for me?
To quote Videogameperfection's review:
As our friends over at My Life in Gaming pointed out in their excellent N64 video, the unit only appears to use a very basic frame-double deinterlace, which results in lots of combing artefacts on moving images.
Not sure if something's changed or you're just not noticing the combing artifacts on your plasma.
PS1 Disc-Based Game ID BIOS patch for MemCard Pro and SD2PSX automatic VMC switching.
nmalinoski
Posts: 1974
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:52 pm

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by nmalinoski »

strayan wrote:I’m really confused about the way ultrahdmi handles interlaced content when set to output 480p and would like to know if it’s possible to replicate the way ultrahdmi handles interlaced signals for all retro consoles so I can take advantage of the higher resolution interlaced modes sometimes available. Whatever it does looks stunning on my 480p plasma which no combing artefacts which other people seem to complain about.

Can anyone break it down for me?
I'm not sure what you're looking at, but I've definitely experienced combing artifacts with mine. According to VGP's review of the UltraHDMI, it uses a double-frame method of deinterlacing, which I believe is a combination of the current interlaced frame and the previous one.

If you want to deinterlace 480i output from your consoles, you'll either need to send that 480i directly to your display for deinterlacing and upscaling or use some other video processor to perform deinterlacing, like a cheap whatever-to-HDMI scaler/converter from Amazon/eBay, or an Extron DSC 301 HD, or a Framemeister, or a DVDO.

I'm also not aware of any community-driven projects for a scaler that either purposefully or coincidentally mimic the output and scaling options of the UltraHDMI, though I will say it would be neat to have something along those lines; a simple, standalone scaler that can take any resolution or framerate input and framerate convert to 50/60/72Hz and scale to a preset resolution (At least 480p/576p/720p/1080p, like the UltraHDMI, plus an EDID autodetect to automatically use the native resolution of the panel, just like the Xbox 360), with a constant output so it will survive upstream resolution switches (pretty much the one thing the Framemeister should be able to do but doesn't).
strayan
Posts: 671
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:33 pm

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by strayan »

So do you mean those non community driven products like the extron or framemesiter do double frame deinterlacing (are there other names for double frame deinterlacing so I can do some more searching about it)?

Is there any way to get a GameCube to do double frame deinterlacing without a dedicated deinterlacer? I have a EON GCHD Mk-II which does line doubling but that just makes interlaced content look even worse on my TV.
Last edited by strayan on Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Syntax
Posts: 1774
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:10 am
Location: Australia

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Syntax »

Swiss and Nintendont force 480i ti 480p.
Swiss is perfect imo.
strayan
Posts: 671
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:33 pm

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by strayan »

Syntax wrote:Swiss and Nintendont force 480i ti 480p.
Swiss is perfect imo.
Will Swiss force 576i (or anything higher) to 480p as well?
User avatar
Syntax
Posts: 1774
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:10 am
Location: Australia

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Syntax »

No idea. Dont use GC much till an ODE that can stream audio is released.

For now a Wii with wiidual mod will bypass the 480p code oversight/glitch in wiis homebrew SDK and nintendont does a nice job of forcing modes but has no option for anti dither like swiss does.
Running swiss on a wii is a pain too.
User avatar
Extrems
Posts: 540
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Extrems »

strayan wrote:Will Swiss force 576i (or anything higher) to 480p as well?
It usually work. There's 576p for when it doesn't.
nmalinoski
Posts: 1974
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:52 pm

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by nmalinoski »

strayan wrote:So do you mean those non community driven products like the extron or framemesiter do double frame deinterlacing (are there other names for double frame deinterlacing so I can do some more searching about it)?
No, I only know that the UltraHDMI does double-frame deinterlacing; I have no idea what deinterlacing methods other video processors will use, and they may offer a choice of methods.
strayan
Posts: 671
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:33 pm

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by strayan »

nmalinoski wrote:No, I only know that the UltraHDMI does double-frame deinterlacing; I have no idea what deinterlacing methods other video processors will use, and they may offer a choice of methods.
Is there another name for this type of deinterlacing?
User avatar
unmaker
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 7:27 am
Contact:

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by unmaker »

I took some time today to compare borti's N64RGBv2 and N64RGBv1 using the same console. The N64RGBv1 uses a resistor ladder and the N64RGBv2 uses a DAC IC. The N64RGBv1 is essentially the same as viletim's N64RGB as far as I know but with input resistors. I started by installing the N64RGBv1:

Image

When playing through my PVM the picture looked crystal clear. When going through my OSSC to HDTV I could see some noise, mostly on bright backgrounds. The noise is a kind of flickering which I've seen others experience on these forums. I was certain it was from the console's 3.3v rail. I captured some footage from a couple of games to demonstrate the noise:

Super Mario 64(most noticeable at the select file screen): https://streamable.com/5njnc
Paper Mario: https://streamable.com/t3cha
Snowboard Kids 2: https://streamable.com/20zi9

I then swapped out the N64RGBv1 for the N64RGBv2 and took some footage of the same games:

Image

Super Mario 64: https://streamable.com/idfx4
Paper Mario: https://streamable.com/zs1fl
Snowboard Kids 2: https://streamable.com/ilsqm

No noise at all, output is crystal clear! I wanted to be certain that the video noise with the N64RGBv1 was due to the N64's 3.3v rail, so I put the N64RGBv1 back in but this time included borti's 3.3v Power Regulator board:

Image
Image

Super Mario 64: https://streamable.com/rbrvq
Paper Mario: https://streamable.com/90as9
Snowboard Kids 2: https://streamable.com/v042q

The noise is gone! I don't know what percentage of N64's are affected by this 3.3v power issue but it seems to me that borti's PR board should always be installed alongside the N64RGBv1 or viletim's N64RGB, if it's even just as a preventative measure.

I also took some screenshots:

N64RGBv1: https://imgur.com/a/MhptnZj
N64RGBv2: https://imgur.com/a/UHj2JUe
N64RGBv1 + PR: https://imgur.com/a/Y6cNtir

When comparing screenshots between the N64RGBv2 and N64RGBv1 with PR board, I can't say that one looks better than the other. Maybe others have better eyes than me.

tl;dr:
-N64RGBv2 output is crystal clear unlike the N64RGBv1 and viletim's N64RGB which are vulnerable to video noise
-installing a N64RGBv1 or viletim's N64RGB without borti's 3.3v Power Regulator board can lead to video noise
-with the Power Regulator board installed alongside the N64RGBv1/viletim's N64RGB, I don't notice any significant difference in picture quality when compared to the N64RGBv2
User avatar
Syntax
Posts: 1774
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:10 am
Location: Australia

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Syntax »

Awesome work with the captures! Finally some nice videos showing the issue.

I'll chime in and say every single N64RGB board I have fit I have modified with a 3.3v LDO and 2 capacitors to eliminate the on screen noise.

Only some do I have to install resistors on the data lines to fix jumping pixels.
nmalinoski
Posts: 1974
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:52 pm

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by nmalinoski »

Would there be any benefit to installing that power regulator board for use solely with an UltraHDMI?
User avatar
unmaker
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 7:27 am
Contact:

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by unmaker »

Syntax wrote:Awesome work with the captures! Finally some nice videos showing the issue.

I'll chime in and say every single N64RGB board I have fit I have modified with a 3.3v LDO and 2 capacitors to eliminate the on screen noise.

Only some do I have to install resistors on the data lines to fix jumping pixels.
Thank you! Did you check for noise on each install prior to doing the 3.3v fix? I'm wondering if all N64's are affected by this.
nmalinoski wrote:Would there be any benefit to installing that power regulator board for use solely with an UltraHDMI?
I don't think there'll be any benefit at all. UltraHDMI output is crystal clear. The 3.3v fix should only be applied if installing Tim Worthington's N64RGB or borti's N64RGBv1, which is also mentioned on his oshpark page for the power regulator
User avatar
Syntax
Posts: 1774
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:10 am
Location: Australia

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Syntax »

unmaker wrote: Thank you! Did you check for noise on each install prior to doing the 3.3v fix? I'm wondering if all N64's are affected by this.
Yup, I always check hoping one day I'll get one without noise, I even made my own PSU out of a laptop PSU and it changed nothing.

Music and controller inputs can be seen on the 3.3v line via scope. Both can be seen by eye on light backgrounds, controller inputs being barely noticeable.
nmalinoski
Posts: 1974
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:52 pm

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by nmalinoski »

unmaker wrote:
nmalinoski wrote:Would there be any benefit to installing that power regulator board for use solely with an UltraHDMI?
I don't think there'll be any benefit at all. UltraHDMI output is crystal clear. The 3.3v fix should only be applied if installing Tim Worthington's N64RGB or borti's N64RGBv1, which is also mentioned on his oshpark page for the power regulator
I read the oshpark page, which says it's designed for use with those RGB boards; it doesn't say it is only applicable to them, thus my question.
User avatar
vol.2
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:13 pm
Location: bmore

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by vol.2 »

Syntax wrote:Awesome work with the captures! Finally some nice videos showing the issue.

I'll chime in and say every single N64RGB board I have fit I have modified with a 3.3v LDO and 2 capacitors to eliminate the on screen noise.

Only some do I have to install resistors on the data lines to fix jumping pixels.
what two capacitors do you add?
User avatar
Syntax
Posts: 1774
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:10 am
Location: Australia

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Syntax »

What ever the LDO specifies
User avatar
vol.2
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:13 pm
Location: bmore

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by vol.2 »

gotcha.

is there anywhere to buy the N64RGBv2 or will i have to print the pcb and assemble it?

sorry if this is an obvious question; i read through the thread, but i couldn't manage to track down an answer...
nmalinoski
Posts: 1974
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:52 pm

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by nmalinoski »

vol.2 wrote:gotcha.

is there anywhere to buy the N64RGBv2 or will i have to print the pcb and assemble it?

sorry if this is an obvious question; i read through the thread, but i couldn't manage to track down an answer...
Could just be my ignorance, but I'm not aware of anyone who is currently producing any of borti's designs; I'm pretty sure the closest you're going to get in terms of prebuilt/readily-available is going to be Tim Worthington's original N64RGB kit.
User avatar
vol.2
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:13 pm
Location: bmore

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by vol.2 »

nmalinoski wrote:
vol.2 wrote:gotcha.

is there anywhere to buy the N64RGBv2 or will i have to print the pcb and assemble it?

sorry if this is an obvious question; i read through the thread, but i couldn't manage to track down an answer...
Could just be my ignorance, but I'm not aware of anyone who is currently producing any of borti's designs; I'm pretty sure the closest you're going to get in terms of prebuilt/readily-available is going to be Tim Worthington's original N64RGB kit.
thanks.

this is the conclusion i came to, but i just asked in case i completely missed something.
also, bortis' github page basically says that he doesn't sell em. but also, it seems like someone could make a bunch and sell em if they wanted.

if i was going to do one of bortis' designs, is there any opinions about the N64 Advance vs N64RGBV2? seems like Advance also does higher res if i want it to, probably higher quality but more $$? or is there something to consider I'm missing?
User avatar
Kez
Posts: 818
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:09 am

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Kez »

I have an N64A, highly recommend it. There are a few major perks. First as you said it allows higher resolutions - Line x2 and Line x3 for 240p, and bob deinterlacing, along with scanlines. It can also output component (through RCA with a custom cable). This is awesome as it allows it to work on many modern TVs, almost like running it through an OSSC. It means you can take your N64 to a friend's house and plug it straight into their TV without needing a bunch of extra equipment. It also has the potential for future updates, though obviously nothing is guaranteed.. the line x3 update was only a few months ago.

Still, if you're sure those features would be of no benefit to you then there is no harm in going for the N64RGBv2 for simplicity's sake.

I haven't looked at the difference in price, but I suspect it's not gonna be all that huge. It will be a bit tougher to solder the FPGA by hand but the actual install is pretty similar.

Also I think Matt from VGP has shown interest in borti's boards before but not sure if there has been any progress on that.
User avatar
unmaker
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 7:27 am
Contact:

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by unmaker »

Syntax wrote:Yup, I always check hoping one day I'll get one without noise, I even made my own PSU out of a laptop PSU and it changed nothing.

Music and controller inputs can be seen on the 3.3v line via scope. Both can be seen by eye on light backgrounds, controller inputs being barely noticeable.
That's interesting. I was under the impression that maybe only certain board revisions or aging capacitors on the console/AC adapter were the culprits. I wonder why the N64RGBv2, N64A, and UltraHDMI aren't affected by this?
nmalinoski wrote:I read the oshpark page, which says it's designed for use with those RGB boards; it doesn't say it is only applicable to them, thus my question.
Honestly I don't have enough of a technical understanding to say why the N64RGBv2, N64A, and UltraHDMI aren't affected by this issue. Hopefully someone else can chime in.
User avatar
Kez
Posts: 818
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:09 am

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by Kez »

unmaker wrote:Honestly I don't have enough of a technical understanding to say why the N64RGBv2, N64A, and UltraHDMI aren't affected by this issue. Hopefully someone else can chime in.
borti had this to say at the end of a long thread on this topic here:
borti4938 wrote:The problem with viletims design and my N64RGBv1 (which will probably be discontinued quite soon) is that the digital and analog domain is simply separated using R2R ladder, which is not optimal in point of view; especially with the rather long ground wire of the conventional installation method (modding board placed on top of the heat spreader).

Have you ever tried my N64RGBv2, where digital and analog domain is separated a video DAC IC?
Along with a DAC IC instead of RDR ladder, these other boards are also able to use 5V from the AV out instead of the 3.3V supply that is the root of the issues.
User avatar
unmaker
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 7:27 am
Contact:

Re: Nintendo 64 RGB Blur fixing

Post by unmaker »

Kez wrote:
unmaker wrote:Honestly I don't have enough of a technical understanding to say why the N64RGBv2, N64A, and UltraHDMI aren't affected by this issue. Hopefully someone else can chime in.
borti had this to say at the end of a long thread on this topic here:
borti4938 wrote:The problem with viletims design and my N64RGBv1 (which will probably be discontinued quite soon) is that the digital and analog domain is simply separated using R2R ladder, which is not optimal in point of view; especially with the rather long ground wire of the conventional installation method (modding board placed on top of the heat spreader).

Have you ever tried my N64RGBv2, where digital and analog domain is separated a video DAC IC?
Along with a DAC IC instead of RDR ladder, these other boards are also able to use 5V from the AV out instead of the 3.3V supply that is the root of the issues.
Thank you! That's the answer I was looking for. According to leonk's post it seems the issue is related to excessive ground loops. I now wonder if the 3.3v LDO fix can be skipped and by simply isolating the multiAV ground pin to the N64RGB board could be sufficient enough.
Post Reply