TV RGB mod thread

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DJO_Maverick
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by DJO_Maverick »

I'm baffled by this jungle. I tried switching to 24/51 tonight, and it took levels back down comparable to when it was simply terminated 75 with no resistance. So for anyone keeping score at this point:

75 termination only: low
Backwards voltage divider with 75 termination prior to 1100 series resistor (approx .68vpp?): about 33-50% brighter
33 series prior to 75 termination (approx .51vpp): very slightly brighter than above
24 series prior to 51 termination (should be exactly .5vpp): as low as the original 75 term by itself.

I really, really want to find a data sheet that actually has the levels spelled out.

Worst of all, the bar was slightly more prevalent than it was with the 33/75 combo. Disconnected the ground line and it was still there, so I don't think it's that. Input lines from jack to switch and switch to IC are as short as can be, don't THINK it's that... starting to wonder if it's something to do with the blanking being tied 5V high? Otherwise out of ideas and might have to try to live with it.
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DJO_Maverick
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by DJO_Maverick »

Anyone ever successfully salvaged a set with a half-broken anode clip? Managed to snap off one side of the clip on this Sharp when discharging it somehow. Unfortunately the only way to get at the board is to pull it completely out of the chassis, so... :(

EDIT: Little update; got bold and reassembled it anyway; between the one half of the clip and the suction cup, it feels fairly secure. Still functional, though unsure of the long term safety of that. I played with pots on the RGB lines and have them at a happy place, but the right side ripple that fades in and out on certain colors persists.

I believe I've isolated it to the blanking line coming from the 5v regulator; it's there even when only that's connected. I tried running from the D-VCC pin 18 that the manual says is supposed to have 4.7v, and the ripple was no longer noticeable, however it wasn't enough to blank; also turns out the actual voltage measured was 3.3. Found a different 5v regulator on the PIP board and tried it, and it ALSO couldn't blank, but it DID cause the ripple anyway! Measured it and turned out it was only outputting 4.7v, so it seems right at 5 is the sweet spot... and also seems like I just have inordinately noisy regulators.

Anyone ever tried making some sort of LC filter for the 5v output (or had a need to)? Or should I just tie it high to the pin 46 9v VCC and hope A) it's better filtered and B) it doesn't fry? That's about the only thing left that could go wrong with this little project!

EDIT 2: Tried to filter the 5v regulator output with a little circuit of 10, 1, an 0.1 uf decoupling caps. No change. Did find out that I was wrong about the blanking voltage; mirrored the stock 6.8/3.3 k divider on the regulator output in addition to the filtering, taking it down to 1.7v, and it still blanked fine, but no change to that stubborn ripple. Must have shorted it somehow when I had it hooked up to the D-VCC previously?
HellRazor
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by HellRazor »

Hello again guys! =D So i having a issue while playing on my 14 trinitron, after 40 mins with the TV turned on the screen start to bounce, showing also white dots and horizontal flickers, someone even have that problem before? here a video i record on vimeo (sorry crap audio on background its a vacuum cleaner, just turn down volume please): https://vimeo.com/329837436
EDIT: the shadow loop is just from my bad camera
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devicemodder
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by devicemodder »

Picked up a panasonic TV (CT-9R11A) that has a menu using RGB lines. can't seem to figure out the blanking though, and also where to inject my SYNC as the set is antenna only.

Here's a schematic I pulled from the service manual. the pin that I think might be blanking, YC pin on the AN5163K Jungle IC disables the OSD when tied to ground. Haven't tried +5V yet.

Any suggestions to disable the background static and just let the OSD RGB show through? And where do i tap into to bypass the tuner?

Image

Full Service Manual https://mega.nz/#!DI4DFCxD!9tBn_6hqVs1Y ... 9YdRXntICY
MarkOZLAD
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by MarkOZLAD »

Pin 33 of AN5163K looks the goods for sync input. A pretty standard pattern for these chips is that they get fed IF in, they convert it internally then send the video out and return it back into themselves via the internal video pin.

Blanking is YS input, pin 7. Requires 0.7V or more to blank.

Should be able to do an OSD External RGB mux by removing resistors R611, R612 and R613 and injecting 75R terminated RGB in the holes left via 240R inline resistors.
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devicemodder
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by devicemodder »

MarkOZLAD wrote:Pin 33 of AN5163K looks the goods for sync input. A pretty standard pattern for these chips is that they get fed IF in, they convert it internally then send the video out and return it back into themselves via the internal video pin.

Blanking is YS input, pin 7. Requires 0.7V or more to blank.

Should be able to do an OSD External RGB mux by removing resistors R611, R612 and R613 and injecting 75R terminated RGB in the holes left via 240R inline resistors.

This is the exact info I was looking for. thanks so much! I'll be modding my set soon. And, i can confirm that pin 33 is sync as I fed a composite test signal in there and saw a picture.
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devicemodder
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by devicemodder »

Successful RGB Mod done to my panasonic CT-9R11A

Image
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devicemodder
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by devicemodder »

MarkOZLAD wrote:
Should be able to do an OSD External RGB mux by removing resistors R611, R612 and R613 and injecting 75R terminated RGB in the holes left via 240R inline resistors.

[/quote]

did that, and I get a solid white image. Had to connect back the TV 680 ohm termination resistors to get my picture back. Also had to run the OSD in parallel with the image for now. so it appears transparent on top of the image, but is still readable. Any way to get the blacks to be darker?
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by MarkOZLAD »

Did you follow the OSD mux diagram shown in my signature?
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devicemodder
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by devicemodder »

MarkOZLAD wrote:Did you follow the OSD mux diagram shown in my signature?

I did, exactly as shown. It seems that with my set, any termination other than the 680 ohms causes a white screen
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by MarkOZLAD »

devicemodder wrote:
MarkOZLAD wrote:Did you follow the OSD mux diagram shown in my signature?
I did, exactly as shown. It seems that with my set, any termination other than the 680 ohms causes a white screen
In the OSD mux method the OSD lines will terminate through the 240 ohms and 75 ohms that are on the external RGB lines. It makes no sense that "any termination other than the 680 ohms causes a white screen". This simply will not be the case. There will be something wrong with your implementation.

To implement the OSD mux when I have through-hole resistors on the OSD termination I use this simple method. For each of the RGB lines, I twist and solder the legs of a 240R (in your case) and a 75R together at one end, making a Y shape. I then solder the free leg of the 240R into the hole left by the removed resistor that "goes to the jungle" and the free leg of the 75R to the hole left by the removed resistor that is attached to ground. I then connect my RGB lines to the connected legs that will be sticking up. If you watch the 8 Bit Guy's CRT RGB mod video you will see he used the technique.
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"Imagine toggle switch OSD modding a TV in 2019" - maxtherabbit
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devicemodder
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by devicemodder »

MarkOZLAD wrote:
devicemodder wrote:
MarkOZLAD wrote:Did you follow the OSD mux diagram shown in my signature?
I did, exactly as shown. It seems that with my set, any termination other than the 680 ohms causes a white screen
In the OSD mux method the OSD lines will terminate through the 240 ohms and 75 ohms that are on the external RGB lines. It makes no sense that "any termination other than the 680 ohms causes a white screen". This simply will not be the case. There will be something wrong with your implementation.

To implement the OSD mux when I have through-hole resistors on the OSD termination I use this simple method. For each of the RGB lines, I twist and solder the legs of a 240R (in your case) and a 75R together at one end, making a Y shape. I then solder the free leg of the 240R into the hole left by the removed resistor that "goes to the jungle" and the free leg of the 75R to the hole left by the removed resistor that is attached to ground. I then connect my RGB lines to the connected legs that will be sticking up. If you watch the 8 Bit Guy's CRT RGB mod video you will see he used the technique.

that clears everything up, i'll give it a shot next time I have the TV open. this set uses surface mount parts, so it's a little trickier to solder, but i can manage. So, i desolder the 680 ohm terminations, and replace them with the 240/75 ohm with my external RGB coming in the middle of them?

Just to verify, This is the circuit I'd use? Image
ie
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cargo
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by cargo »

Hi MarkOZLAD

A while ago you and Syntax helped me with a Sony KV-27S22. Switch mod still working great. Thanks again!

I'd like to upgrade to your mux alternative and was wondering if you could help me figure out the component values. Looking at the TV's service manual the RGB and blank lines for the OSD chip use 220 Ohms each. I tried using the resistor table but it starts at 620 Ohms. Also for this case I don't see a diode for these lines. Do I need them? I also don't know what resistor values I need for the external RGB/Blanking. On the board a schematic I see resistors R1355, R1356 and R1357 going to the jungle chip with 100 Ohm each. Then again I am not sure I am doing this right.

Thank you for your time.

Images (click for bigger)
Spoiler
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Image
OSD chip
Image

Jungle IC
Image

Board A Diagram
Image

KS-27S22 Service Manual
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9pakkpfykap8a ... l.pdf?dl=0
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DJO_Maverick
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by DJO_Maverick »

Two post-mortems in rapid succession. So first, Sharp 27N-S300. This was done purposefully as an OSD snip since its OSD does not naturally go away and it is destined for use in a MAME cabinet, so I want the ability to generally have it disabled.

Long story short, I originally did this in a clean and more correct manner... then gradually desecrated the TV and Frankensteined it to a horrible extent in search of squashing the right side ripple effect I described, but never managed to photograph very effectively. The original injection points I used, which I'd recommend, are R2024 and R2025 for red and green, which are both conveniently large and thru-hole, and R2026 and R2027 for blue and blanking, which are on the opposite side of the board and SMD, but still workable. The less said about the state it's in now, the better (though entirely functional and pretty). 5V is pulled from the regulator, IC101. Originally I had blanking on the switch, but pulled it off and muxed those lines alone since I never intend to use the set for anything else; removed R802, put a 3.3k resistor on the 5V and connected it with the 6.8k one coming off the internal blank both to pin 14 of the Jungle.

One quirk was that it seemed to like RGB to be closer to .5 than .7; levels were demonstrably brighter the closer to .5 I got, but terminating it with anything other than 75 ohm caused major issues. I ended up ultimately using 33 ohm series prior to the termination for best results. Nonetheless, still had to tweak up the cutoffs by about 20 points to get everything looking solid.

The solution to my problem was that it wanted everything to be far, FAR away from the flyback... my switch and wires started a good 10 inches away, but moving the whole shebang another 2 inches to the left finally resolved that ripple effect, long after I'd torn everything up and rebuilt it a few times, up to and including pulling IC pins (and breaking one).

Notwithstanding I'm worried that my anode clip now only has one half of the clip mechanism, it makes a beautiful picture now; my crappy camera can't do it justice.

Screenshots:
Spoiler
Image

Image

Image
Line on the screen is just my camera acting up.

Image
Last edited by DJO_Maverick on Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DJO_Maverick
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by DJO_Maverick »

Second: Sony KV-32S22. This one was done as an OSD Mux with coaching from MarkOZLAD.

This went infinitely smoother, despite teeny-tiny SMDs all the way. R1123, R1128, and R133 were all removed. External RGB lines were terminated with 75 ohm, then 330 ohm in series after, and connected to the ungrounded pads of the former grounding resistors.

I pulled 5v from either pin 46 or 47 of the Micom (can't recall right now, there are two 5v pins right next to each other). Ran it through a 220 ohm resistor and tied it to the upstream leg of inductor L003.

RGB lines were all run to BNC jacks, comp RCA input used for sync.

Excellent results out of the box; didn't need to adjust gain or cutoffs at all on this one. Not quite as glorious looking as the Sharp (red convergence is a tic off), but still grand and big. Couldn't have done it without help from Mark, much appreciated.

Only kink I've run into is a faint 'arc' on the left side of the screen that is entirely static (not ripply like what I dealt with on the Sharp) but is only visible on certain (generally dim/dark) colors. You can see it to the left of the tombstone one screenshot; best I could get of it. I'm not sure what's causing it; I suspect it might again be some sort of HV interference, but I'm almost tempted to leave well-enough alone on this one, after the travesties I inflicted on the Sharp.

EDIT: Actually one other kink, not sure if anyone has run into; it doesn't happen with RGB-Pi, RGB NES, or N64, only SNES. If the tv is already on and I turn on the SNES, it goes to a full white screen and stays that way... may eventually slowly recalibrate one color at a time back to a normal picture after minutes. This happens maybe 60% of the time, however, it can be worked around 100% of the time either by resetting the console or by turning the tv on AFTER the SNES is already on. I suspect it's some sort of clamping problem; my SNES makes a white flash on the screen when it's initially powered on, and I think that's causing it, though it doesn't cause any issues on either my PVM or the Sharp. Any solutions to that annoyance?

Screenshots below:
Spoiler
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
MarkOZLAD
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by MarkOZLAD »

devicemodder wrote:
Just to verify, This is the circuit I'd use?
ie
Exactly right.
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by MarkOZLAD »

cargo wrote:Hi MarkOZLAD

A while ago you and Syntax helped me with a Sony KV-27S22. Switch mod still working great. Thanks again!

I'd like to upgrade to your mux alternative and was wondering if you could help me figure out the component values.
Check out DJO_Maverick's post two below yours for his KV-32S22 that I helped him with. Should be same method. Happy to provide more info if needed.
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OSD/External RGB Mux Resistor Value Table 0.7Vp-p : 0.5Vp-p

"Imagine toggle switch OSD modding a TV in 2019" - maxtherabbit
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by MarkOZLAD »

DJO_Maverick wrote:Second: Sony KV-32S22. This one was done as an OSD Mux with coaching from MarkOZLAD.

This went infinitely smoother, despite teeny-tiny SMDs all the way. R1123, R1128, and R133 were all removed. External RGB lines were terminated with 75 ohm, then 330 ohm in series after, and connected to the ungrounded pads of the former grounding resistors.

I pulled 5v from either pin 46 or 47 of the Micom (can't recall right now, there are two 5v pins right next to each other). Ran it through a 220 ohm resistor and tied it to the upstream leg of inductor L003.

RGB lines were all run to BNC jacks, comp RCA input used for sync.

Excellent results out of the box; didn't need to adjust gain or cutoffs at all on this one. Not quite as glorious looking as the Sharp (red convergence is a tic off), but still grand and big. Couldn't have done it without help from Mark, much appreciated.
Very happy to help. I have been hoping someone would try an OSD External RGB Mux on the Sony AA-2D chassis. I had analysed this set many moons ago and had formulated my method but being in Australia I will never get my hands on one of these sets. The circuit on this set is quite different from most we encounter but in the end can be tackled in a near identical manner.

Hopefully now a whole new class of sets can be saved from the dreaded OSD snip.
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Dr. Phil
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Dr. Phil »

[edit: this was an earlier revision of my other post]
Last edited by Dr. Phil on Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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cargo
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by cargo »

Thank you but I don't understand what he's saying. I don't understand why he chose those spots and the signal he's diverting or injecting. I don't know what resistors I need to use and their values. I don't know how to proceed. Sorry if I sound dumb but the post is too generic for me to risk breaking a different (though apparently same board) model.
MarkOZLAD wrote:
cargo wrote:Hi MarkOZLAD

A while ago you and Syntax helped me with a Sony KV-27S22. Switch mod still working great. Thanks again!

I'd like to upgrade to your mux alternative and was wondering if you could help me figure out the component values.
Check out DJO_Maverick's post two below yours for his KV-32S22 that I helped him with. Should be same method. Happy to provide more info if needed.
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DJO_Maverick
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by DJO_Maverick »

cargo wrote:Thank you but I don't understand what he's saying. I don't understand why he chose those spots and the signal he's diverting or injecting. I don't know what resistors I need to use and their values. I don't know how to proceed. Sorry if I sound dumb but the post is too generic for me to risk breaking a different (though apparently same board) model.
The three resistors mentioned are SMD grounding resistors, one on each of the color lines. If unfamiliar, that means one pad is in the signal, and one pad goes to ground. If those resistors are removed, you turn the non-ground pad of each of them into an injection point. Each color line is terminated with a 75 ohm resistor to ground and then goes through a 330 ohm resistor, as described, to the non-ground pad left behind by the appropriate resistor. In my case, R133 was blue, R1123 was red, and R1128 was green.

As for how the value of the replacement was calculated, you'd have to ask Mark; he handled the math. They're replacing 390 ground terminations, so they aren't far off.

Likewise for his calculation of the 220 ohm resistor to use on the 5v source. You can find whatever 5v source you want, really... I just pulled one of the appropriate Micom pins because it was handy, and because the 5v regulator on this board is over on the high voltage side, and I didn't want to risk bringing any interference. The leg of that inductor is in the path of the OSD blanking signal, on its way over to the jungle. If you never intend to use the set for anything other than RGB again, hook it straight up to it. If you want the option to continue using other connection types, you'd need to run your 5v source through a SPDT switch, and then on to the inductor, that way you can turn off the full-screen blanking.
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cargo
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by cargo »

Well at least it worked out for you. Thanks.
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Dr. Phil
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Dr. Phil »

devicemodder wrote:Picked up a panasonic TV (CT-9R11A) that has a menu using RGB lines. can't seem to figure out the blanking though, and also where to inject my SYNC as the set is antenna only.

Here's a schematic I pulled from the service manual. the pin that I think might be blanking, YC pin on the AN5163K Jungle IC disables the OSD when tied to ground. Haven't tried +5V yet.

Any suggestions to disable the background static and just let the OSD RGB show through? And where do i tap into to bypass the tuner?

Image

Full Service Manual https://mega.nz/#!DI4DFCxD!9tBn_6hqVs1Y ... 9YdRXntICY
Careful, that TV's hot chassis!
I highly recommend you either revert it or connect it to an arcade isolation transformer.

Please read this. They're talking about arcade monitors, but it still applies: https://forums.arcade-museum.com/showth ... p?t=280792
Pac-Fan from KLOV wrote:DO NOT RUN AN ARCADE MONITOR (made prior to the very late 90s that incorporated on board switch mode isolation) WITHOUT AN ISOLATION TRANSFORMER!

A 4600 and 4900 both REQUIRE one. Without using one, you will:

a) Have a "hot" chassis; meaning everything attached to the monitor tube/frame/etc.. will be HOT, therefore if you touch it and therefore ground it, it will send 120V through you.

b) This hot chassis has a ground potential (as described above). If you plug in your video cable, it will send 120V to the game board, thus frying the entire board. Yes, you WILL fry your 60-in-1.

c) The bridge rectifier (converts AC to DC right after the fuse) will also be destroyed, as well as numerous other components as soon as the power is turned on.


Failing flybacks and power surges and surge protectors have nothing to do with isolation transformers. They're there to provide a non-earth-ground isolated power source. Think of it as a "charged battery" instead of a transformer, and it may make more sense. A car battery will NOT shock you if you stand on the ground and touch EITHER terminal, but as soon as you touch both then you'll get the full cycle of power. Same goes for an isolation transformer. Once isolated, there is no power that wants to travel back to earth ground and therefore it won't want to travel through the video cable ground, or through the frame to ground (and why you can safely touch the frame when isolated -- and by design, should always be earth grounded as well)

Note: Even IF the monitor has on-board isolation (only the very tail end of monitors in the 90's/2000's) using an ISO on top of that does not cause any problems. It's just extra security should you touch something on the chassis prior to the voltage being isolated there.

As a basic rule, don't RGB mod RF-only TV sets unless you're willing to buy an isolation transformer for it.
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by MarkOZLAD »

If I get some time and I can be bothered I’ll do a proper write up of my logic behind the Sony AA-2D mod I helped with. I actually took an educated guess with it, someone with more electronics skill than myself can likely do a better job.

Some quick things of note, the micro controller is outputting digital RGBI that gets turned into RGB at levels that can be inputted into the jungle.

Follow the schematic and you’ll see that the lines from the micro controller go up into the RGBI to RGB conversion circuitry.

I then figured that the very last set of resistors that go to ground at the end of this circuit are basically the same as the OSD termination or grounding resistors. They are of value 390R. As we would be removing these resistors and making the Mux here I figured we’d want to subtract 75 from 390 which leVes is with 315R, closest standard size is 330R. This would mean a new termination of 405R which I figured would be within tolerance.

As for the resistor on the blanking, I just choose a resistor that is the same value as the one already on the blanking line from factory as we are just trying to mimic it.
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OSD/External RGB Mux Diagram
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"Imagine toggle switch OSD modding a TV in 2019" - maxtherabbit
HellRazor
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by HellRazor »

hey Mark, can that one be modded? thanks! https://www.electronica-pt.com/esquema/ ... d20-17144/
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by MarkOZLAD »

HellRazor wrote:hey Mark, can that one be modded? thanks! https://www.electronica-pt.com/esquema/ ... d20-17144/
I don’t think so.
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OSD/External RGB Mux Diagram
OSD/External RGB Mux Resistor Value Table 0.7Vp-p : 0.5Vp-p

"Imagine toggle switch OSD modding a TV in 2019" - maxtherabbit
HellRazor
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by HellRazor »

thanks for the reply, almost buy it lol
Thatawkwardhipster
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Thatawkwardhipster »

Hi, I'm completely new to rgb modding. How hard would it it be to mod this console crt
http://imgur.com/gallery/cNuGdpN
Last edited by Thatawkwardhipster on Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Impellerhead
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Impellerhead »

I want to do a RGB mod on my Philips 14GR1221/10W and I am wondering if someone is willing to help
me a bit were to connect things.

Here's a link to the schematics.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ETg9q1 ... 9Un7F/view

Thanks.
Nalgman
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Re: TV RGB mod thread

Post by Nalgman »

Hey guys, I've been browsing the forum for a few weeks and decided to mod an Apex tv (Model AT2704S, Chassis CH-10C) that I found on the curb after an estate sale. The information I found here has been really helpful and I wanted to give a big thanks to community! I found that someone had already done an rgb mod on this same model television but didn't provide much information. I found the necessary service manuals and schematics online and set to work trying to understand the whole process and originally installed a switch mod like a neanderthal. Good news is the fever broke and I removed all that unnecessary wiring. I now have it working just fine on a MUX mod with a switch just for blanking. Again thanks for all the information everyone has provided! I've posted a link to an album with a few images to show off how things turned out.

https://imgur.com/a/gow5Hf4
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