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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:32 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 11
Extrems wrote:
This was only tested on RVL-CPU-01, so yes.


Wow this is amazing. Thanks so much for your work!


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:02 pm 


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I'm not familiar with the capturing process. It sounds like the sampling rate hasn't been controlled for in these examples and so it's not an objective comparison?

What are you guys seeing that has tipped you off, the 'horizontal shift/ghosting'?


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:04 pm 



Joined: 30 Mar 2019
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Okay, this is major. The 480p fix I mean. Why isn't the whole community on fire about this right now?


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:12 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 463
I wonder if this was in fact deliberate by Nintendo, at least for Wii games.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:51 pm 



Joined: 08 Mar 2017
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It was an oversight in an open source graphics library that most (all?) homebrew use.
Official titles won't be affected, except if they got loaded through some homebrew and that homebrew is able to force these encoder settings.

That's how I understand it :p


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:10 pm 


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Extrems wrote:
This was only tested on RVL-CPU-01, so yes.


thanks so much for your efforts.

it's exciting to think i can squeeze a better picture out of the wii i already have. :D

i assume ill have to wait until this fix gets added to a wii mod? i don't even have my current one modded, so I'd be grateful if someone could point me towards whichever one is likely to have this improvement first?

thanks


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:24 pm 


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rama wrote:
It was an oversight in an open source graphics library that most (all?) homebrew use.
Official titles won't be affected, except if they got loaded through some homebrew and that homebrew is able to force these encoder settings.

That's how I understand it :p

no that's not correct - the oversight existed in the original official Revolution SDK, disassembly of which the open source library was based on

this is the reason retail games look like shit on the Wii in 480p, it's a legendary fuckup by nintendo


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:26 pm 


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Gunstar wrote:
Extrems continues to be the GOAT. Amazing discovery.

Crop of Kokonoe's 480p captures:
Image

Based on those captures that newer (RVL-101) Wii does look a little bit better?

if anything the RVL-001 looks better to me in that GIF - but IMO its moot since they both look like complete dogshit compared to the gamecube (or the output of any model Wii with the AVE register correctly set)


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:48 pm 


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rama wrote:
It was an oversight in an open source graphics library that most (all?) homebrew use.
Official titles won't be affected, except if they got loaded through some homebrew and that homebrew is able to force these encoder settings.

That's how I understand it :p

You're completely off the mark.

libogc is the homebrew equivalent/wholesale copy of the Dolphin/Revolution SDKs.

This piece of code originate from the Revolution SDK. The Revolution SDK is used by Nintendo and its licensees to build everything that runs on the Broadway CPU.

This piece of code is called by all software when they initialize video. Including BootMii and Wii Linux.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:51 pm 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 1295
maxtherabbit wrote:
if anything the RVL-001 looks better to me in that GIF - but IMO its moot since they both look like complete dogshit compared to the gamecube (or the output of any model Wii with the AVE register correctly set)

The RVL-101 appears to have more artifacting/edge noise than the RVL-001 in this comparison, but the RVL-101 is still a tad bit sharper.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:54 pm 


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GeneraLight wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
if anything the RVL-001 looks better to me in that GIF - but IMO its moot since they both look like complete dogshit compared to the gamecube (or the output of any model Wii with the AVE register correctly set)

The RVL-101 appears to have more artifacting/edge noise than the RVL-001 in this comparison, but the RVL-101 is still a tad bit sharper.

it's speculation at this point, but my gut tells me that when the 240p test suite is recompiled with the fixed library if someone were kind enough to provide calibrated captures of the two Wii versions' outputs they would prove to be indistinguishable


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:18 pm 


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Extrems wrote:
WiiDual isn't even hooked up to the I2C bus. It ignores all AVE-RVL configuration.


So 480p Wii games played on Wii consoles modded with WiiDual aren't affected by this bug?


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:24 pm 


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You could use a CMPV-DOL with level shifters and it wouldn't be affected.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:34 pm 


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Extrems wrote:
You could use a CMPV-DOL with level shifters and it wouldn't be affected.


I see good to know, so the issue relies solely on the DACs? Hum interesting, so not only they used low quality DACs but then they gimped them even more with that bug you just found?


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:38 pm 


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Who said they were low quality?


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:51 pm 


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Extrems wrote:
Who said they were low quality?


I am talking the Wii stock DACs and I think it's been a year or a few months since I read it here, but I can't find the post that mentioned that nor remember who made the comment. But one of the points of the WiiDual is to bypass the stock DAC isn't it? So doesn't that mean that the stock DACs aren't very good?


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:59 pm 


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Lawfer wrote:
Extrems wrote:
Who said they were low quality?


I am talking the Wii stock DACs and I think it's been a year or a few months since I read it here, but I can't find the post that mentioned that nor remember who made the comment. But one of the points of the WiiDual is to bypass the stock DAC isn't it? So doesn't that mean that the stock DACs aren't very good?

the belief that the AVE-RVL was "bad" is all contingent on the inadequate bandwidth for 31kHz video - which is caused by the software bug

there's nothing wrong with the DAC at all


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:15 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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These findings further vindicate my claim earlier that 480i always looked way better than 480p on Wii for me. Though I also felt the same way about Gamecube, which doesn't have this software limitation. But it's been a long time since I looked at it.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:47 pm 


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Having a play with wiidual today and Eternal Darkness for GC running via Nintendont.

So far I've noticed forcing 480p in nintendont makes the image sharp but smoothed.

The native 480p setting is so sharp, too sharp even. Makes everything look strongly dithered which doesn't seem right.

I assumed only the forced 480p of Nintendont would be effected by the coding oversight that's been brought to attention.

Dont have a gcdual to compare right now.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:13 am 


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Syntax wrote:
Having a play with wiidual today and Eternal Darkness for GC running via Nintendont.

So far I've noticed forcing 480p in nintendont makes the image sharp but smoothed.

The native 480p setting is so sharp, too sharp even. Makes everything look strongly dithered which doesn't seem right.

I assumed only the forced 480p of Nintendont would be effected by the coding oversight that's been brought to attention.

Dont have a gcdual to compare right now.

Wiidual does not use AVE-RVL at all, it is completely immune to this software problem


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:48 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 463
It's nevertheless interesting that he's noticing a difference between Nintendont forced 480p vs native 480p. I wonder what would account for that.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:49 am 


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Thanks Max.

So what is it that I'm seeing here then?

First pic is native 480p full of ugly dithering.
But sharp as a razor.

Second is nintendont forcing 480p.
This has artifacts on logos text ect.

https://imgur.com/a/b1JqE8U

Be sure to zoom the pics till it lines up with your pixels.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:56 am 


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That's the deflickering filter. Nintendont's video patches aren't anywhere as good as Swiss.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:14 am 


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I've only just setup my PS1 collection with dithering removed and my N64 collection with aps/ips AA dithering removed.

So now I should run GC titles via swiss on the Wii?
Or is nintendont equivalent.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:21 am 



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Syntax wrote:
Thanks Max.

So what is it that I'm seeing here then?

First pic is native 480p full of ugly dithering.
But sharp as a razor.

Second is nintendont forcing 480p.
This has artifacts on logos text ect.

https://imgur.com/a/b1JqE8U

Be sure to zoom the pics till it lines up with your pixels.


The Nintendont pic looks great to me. The first pic does indeed look awful.

Also have you tried the WiiDual's own forced 480p (line doubled 480i)?


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:39 am 


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Well that's confused the shit out of me now.

The game runs native 480i.
If I leave line doubling off it looks nice in 480i.

If I put line doubling on it's a shakey mess.

Normally 480i will be shakey compared to 480p no?


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:47 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 463
480i can be a bit shaky depending on the TV/monitor, though on most CRTs it's hardly an issue (they were made with interlace in mind, after all). If you're using a flat panel there should be no shakiness with 480i since all modern displays automatically deinterlace interlaced content. The shakiness you see in the WiiDual's linedoubled picture is probably because it does a simple bob deinterlacing. I don't expect it to look good in most setups but it's worth checking out.

At the end of the day you may end up preferring how your own display deinterlaces 480i over any of the 480p modes.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:18 am 


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Ok so my LCD is doing a better job of deinterlacing than the wiidual? (If line doubling 480i is considered deinterlacing that is.)


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:48 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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It may. Though the LCD's deinterlacing may or may not introduce more perceptible lag. Try out all modes and stick with what looks best for you. For GC games you can try to see if launching through Swiss offers any improvement, though I couldn't get it to run games well with an SD Gecko, and it's too much of a hassle overall compared to the smooth Nintendont experience.


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 Post subject: Re: component wii question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:29 am 


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Swiss looks like a pain to run via wii.

Cant wait for someone to port all these fixes extrems has made to the Revolution SDK and update homebrew ect.


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