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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:56 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 565
donluca wrote:
Dochartaigh wrote:
Others pointed this out, but a 480p CRT still destroys anything I've seen upscaled on my 1080p and 4K flatscreens - doesn't matter if I'm using the OSSC, XRGB-mini, Extron DSC, or any combination of the above - still looks better on a quality 480p CRT.


Is there such a thing as a 480p only monitor, besides arcade ones?

All my CRT monitors are capable of displaying up to 1600x1200@60Hz or 2048xsomething @60Hz


Yes. There were a few but not many. Most large presentation displays like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NW-NEW-JERSEY- ... SwESRcArXs

And this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEC-Video-Moni ... SwWxNatfWl

There was also a generation of "EDTVs" that topped out at 480p just before 720p became a thing.

There is also a couple of 480p plasma monitorS made by Pioneer and Hantarex.

For regular size 480p pc monitors, you'd have to go way back to when IBM first created their vga standard.

My 480p CRTs are tri-sync arcade monitors. They produce a very different looking 480p image than your typical HD crt Pc monitor.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:06 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 565
nmalinoski wrote:
ASDR wrote:
I played quite a bit of C2C on the PS2 and it does support widescreen and 480p on the PS2? It just changes the aspect ratio of the actual 3D content, though. All UI and HUD elements remain sized for 4:3 so they look stretched, but the 3D should look correct at 16:9 if you select it.

Perhaps I need to check again; I noticed the stretched UI elements and normal 3D in the Xbox version, but the PS2 version didn't seem to be displaying in widescreen at all, and there wasn't an option for it that I saw.


The PS2 can switch between 16:9 and 4:3 in the home menu. I don't recall any games with additional aspect ratio controls.

Anyway... the great news for us these days is that there is no reason to choose which is best. They are both so cheap that we can all have both.

For me, the PS2 is my light gun console. Nothing else touches it for quality light gun games. For driving games, nothing beats the PS3 imo. I'm sure I find a gaming niche for the Xbox too.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:27 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
I have a consumer Samsung widescreen HD CRT that syncs directly to 480p with no lag. Xbox is pretty great on it


i keep around a late generation sony hd crt which is fantastic for XBOX and PS2 progressive titles, as long as i'm using the component cables. the digital input via a DVI port looks like garbage


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:31 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:
I'm still not clear on what the issue is with Xbox HDMI specifically. I.e., does it look bad on HD flatscreens due to poor scaling or if it is something more fundamental with how the digital hd rgb signal is generated.


The issue is that Xbox does not output HDMI, the HDMI cables for Xbox take analogue component output and convert them to HDMI.. so the image quality is only as good as the transcoder/scaler built into the cable.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:52 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:
Yes. There were a few but not many. Most large presentation displays like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NW-NEW-JERSEY- ... SwESRcArXs

And this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEC-Video-Moni ... SwWxNatfWl

There was also a generation of "EDTVs" that topped out at 480p just before 720p became a thing.

There is also a couple of 480p plasma monitorS made by Pioneer and Hantarex.

For regular size 480p pc monitors, you'd have to go way back to when IBM first created their vga standard.

My 480p CRTs are tri-sync arcade monitors. They produce a very different looking 480p image than your typical HD crt Pc monitor.



Interesting. I'm always looking for a good big Plasma but I just can't seem to find the ones Fudoh suggests. Maybe it's time to start tracking down Hantarex Plasmas.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:08 pm 


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donluca wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
Yes. There were a few but not many. Most large presentation displays like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NW-NEW-JERSEY- ... SwESRcArXs

And this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEC-Video-Moni ... SwWxNatfWl

There was also a generation of "EDTVs" that topped out at 480p just before 720p became a thing.

There is also a couple of 480p plasma monitorS made by Pioneer and Hantarex.

For regular size 480p pc monitors, you'd have to go way back to when IBM first created their vga standard.

My 480p CRTs are tri-sync arcade monitors. They produce a very different looking 480p image than your typical HD crt Pc monitor.



Interesting. I'm always looking for a good big Plasma but I just can't seem to find the ones Fudoh suggests. Maybe it's time to start tracking down Hantarex Plasmas.



i think even the ones that fudoh suggests are pretty so-so for contrast. if i remember correctly, the big advantage of those old pioneer plasmas is the pixel size and screen shape (being close to a real 4:3 crt) and the way it handles 4:3 content from a geometry standpoint. i don't think they kept making them long enough to reach the era of the plasma tvs with decent contrast and so forth. (like the last gen pannies)
not only did those old plasmas lack image quality (sure they beat the hell out of the old LCDS), 20 years of use probably hasn't improved them any.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:18 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:
The PS2 can switch between 16:9 and 4:3 in the home menu. I don't recall any games with additional aspect ratio controls.


I'd say there are more PS2 games with an explicit aspect ratio setting than those that actually respect the system setting...


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:59 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
i think even the ones that fudoh suggests are pretty so-so for contrast.


I'm mainly looking for a good visual representation pixel/aspect wise and low lag.

Fudoh said quite a few good words about the Pioneer PDP-V402 but for the life of me I've never been able to find one in Italy/Europe in... uh... 5 years? More or less.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:12 pm 


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donluca wrote:
vol.2 wrote:
i think even the ones that fudoh suggests are pretty so-so for contrast.


I'm mainly looking for a good visual representation pixel/aspect wise and low lag.

Fudoh said quite a few good words about the Pioneer PDP-V402 but for the life of me I've never been able to find one in Italy/Europe in... uh... 5 years? More or less.


i remember seeing them in their day, but most of that era flat panel ended up on the scrap heap because they just didn't look very good. the tech was so in it's infancy that people were eager to upgrade. i think 5 years ago is pretty spot on for when i stopped seeing them show up in thrift stores in the US


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:36 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
donluca wrote:
vol.2 wrote:
i think even the ones that fudoh suggests are pretty so-so for contrast.


I'm mainly looking for a good visual representation pixel/aspect wise and low lag.

Fudoh said quite a few good words about the Pioneer PDP-V402 but for the life of me I've never been able to find one in Italy/Europe in... uh... 5 years? More or less.


i remember seeing them in their day, but most of that era flat panel ended up on the scrap heap because they just didn't look very good. the tech was so in it's infancy that people were eager to upgrade. i think 5 years ago is pretty spot on for when i stopped seeing them show up in thrift stores in the US

I remember basically paying 0 attention to any flat TVs back then, I was all like "this stuff is garbage, CRT 4ever"

in retrospect, given the choice of a CRT or plasma/LCD from the early days - I'd still take the CRT :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:38 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:

Yeah, that's been my experience with my other consoles too. Even 720p PS3 games.

Also, just because an old console can output a 720p or 1080i signal, it doesn't mean it will look good. A lot depends on how it is generated. Most older consoles seem to do a horrible job of upscaling and they aren't really powerful enough to render 3d graphics in higher resolutions.

I'm going to start with an HDMI to VGA set-up as I already have everything to make it work. Then I'll see how much I like the Xbox before deciding how much I want to invest in mods or additional transcoders.

I'm still not clear on what the issue is with Xbox HDMI specifically. I.e., does it look bad on HD flatscreens due to poor scaling or if it is something more fundamental with how the digital hd rgb signal is generated.

the original xbox does not upscale

the (few) games that support 720p or 1080i, actually internally render at those resolutions and look great


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:52 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
I remember basically paying 0 attention to any flat TVs back then, I was all like "this stuff is garbage, CRT 4ever"

in retrospect, given the choice of a CRT or plasma/LCD from the early days - I'd still take the CRT :mrgreen:


hahaha

me too. i was still using my 32" Sony CRT that looked fucking great for resident evil. early flat panels really stunk at low light stuff like that.

however... i remember being really fascinated by the plasma tech at the time. it seemed like a new frontier and all. then we got 15 years of shitty TN panels in everything and i got bitter


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:25 am 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
the original xbox does not upscale

the (few) games that support 720p or 1080i, actually internally render at those resolutions and look great

Makes sense. It wasn't until the Xbox 360 and PS3 that consoles adopted HDMI, which does not lend itself to continual changes of output resolution, like you could with CRTs; so now, with HDMI, consoles continually change internal rendering resolution, and scale the result to a single, consistent output resolution.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:00 am 


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There are some games you can patch using OgXHD for widescreen and 720p and it looks awesome when it works.
Some games refuse to boot and some might need 128mb ram to run.

Here's a list.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:12 am 


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Pikkon wrote:
There are some games you can patch using OgXHD for widescreen and 720p and it looks awesome when it works.
Some games refuse to boot and some might need 128mb ram to run.

Here's a list.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

720p widescreen blood omen 2??
Just found my next #beatit2019


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:01 am 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
Posts: 1285
What's the better motherboard revision: 1.1 or 1.3?

1.0
1.1
1.2
1.3
1.4
1.5
1.6a
1.6b


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:56 am 


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Posts: 192
Location: Canada
Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball. Not even joking. The sequel was awful, but the original is actually a great volleyball game to just zone-out with. For the obsessive you can grind away--ehm--at unlocking outfits by role-play-dating the fighters.

...never again....never again...


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:12 am 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 1211
GeneraLight wrote:
What's the better motherboard revision: 1.1 or 1.3?

There's no effective difference between them. Anything 1.1 to 1.3 will be best out of the box, and 1.0 is perfectly fine if you replace the GPU heatsink with one from any later model.

I've read that those with the Conexant encoders (1.0 to 1.3) have really good YPbPr component output, but meh RGB, and those with the Xcalibur encoders (1.6) have really good RGB output, but meh component. I doubt you're really going to notice the difference (I wouldn't), so I'd stick with the 1.0 to 1.3 for the modability.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:28 am 


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Posts: 1869
GeneraLight wrote:
What's the better motherboard revision: 1.1 or 1.3?

1.0
1.1
1.2
1.3
1.4
1.5
1.6a
1.6b


1.3, avoid 1.0, 1.1.


nmalinoski wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
What's the better motherboard revision: 1.1 or 1.3?

There's no effective difference between them.


There is quite a bit actually.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:32 am 


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nmalinoski wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
the original xbox does not upscale

the (few) games that support 720p or 1080i, actually internally render at those resolutions and look great

Makes sense. It wasn't until the Xbox 360 and PS3 that consoles adopted HDMI, which does not lend itself to continual changes of output resolution, like you could with CRTs; so now, with HDMI, consoles continually change internal rendering resolution, and scale the result to a single, consistent output resolution.


Only on the 360, though. The PS3 does not have a hardware scaler and relies on the games to do that. I remember when the PS3 launched there were quite a few pissed owners of early HD displays that only supported 1080i but not 720p, and some games didn't output at 1080i and fell back to 480p. On the 360 you can just set a resolution and the console will never output anything but what you configured.

Lawfer wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
What's the better motherboard revision: 1.1 or 1.3?

1.0
1.1
1.2
1.3
1.4
1.5
1.6a
1.6b


1.3, avoid 1.0, 1.1.


nmalinoski wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
What's the better motherboard revision: 1.1 or 1.3?

There's no effective difference between them.


There is quite a bit actually.


I have a 1.4 and a 1.6. The 1.4 looks great over component, the 1.6 looks like crap. As for moddability, I don't think it matters. You can't do the TSOP flash on the 1.6 (there's no TSOP flash package to begin with), but I don't think that actually gives you anything super interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:49 pm 


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ASDR wrote:

I have a 1.4 and a 1.6. The 1.4 looks great over component, the 1.6 looks like crap. As for moddability, I don't think it matters. You can't do the TSOP flash on the 1.6 (there's no TSOP flash package to begin with), but I don't think that actually gives you anything super interesting.

the TSOP flash is the only to achieve a permanent softmod, no?

I seem to recall 1.6s having other issues as well, I've always had it in my mind to avoid them


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:04 pm 


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In my experience a regular softmod stays installed. You can play import and backup discs without opening the console.
I've heard horror stories about that clock capacitor though.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:25 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
ASDR wrote:

I have a 1.4 and a 1.6. The 1.4 looks great over component, the 1.6 looks like crap. As for moddability, I don't think it matters. You can't do the TSOP flash on the 1.6 (there's no TSOP flash package to begin with), but I don't think that actually gives you anything super interesting.

the TSOP flash is the only to achieve a permanent softmod, no?


Any normal softmod just installs itself on the HDD. It's permanent but of course vanishes if the HDD dies. The TSOP flash just gives you the advantage of doing custom stuff in the BIOS before the code on the HDD becomes active. You can just boot a burned disc with a softmod installer directly. A modified BIOS can also just ignore the HDD key (but you can also just zero it...). And I guess there are some other things, like an unmodified BIOS won't boot without the optical drive installed. Guess you could remove it for better cooling or install a second HDD? So nothing really that important IMHO. The normal softmod will stay installed and can do all the actually important things, like play burned games / HDD games, change video regions, disc regions, etc.

All the xbox capacitors suck (my 1.4 & 1.6):

Image
Image

Clock caps were fine :-)


Last edited by ASDR on Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:27 pm 


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ASDR wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
ASDR wrote:

I have a 1.4 and a 1.6. The 1.4 looks great over component, the 1.6 looks like crap. As for moddability, I don't think it matters. You can't do the TSOP flash on the 1.6 (there's no TSOP flash package to begin with), but I don't think that actually gives you anything super interesting.

the TSOP flash is the only to achieve a permanent softmod, no?


Any normal softmod just installs itself on the HDD. It's permanent but of course vanishes if the HDD dies. The TSOP flash just gives you the advantage of doing custom stuff in the BIOS before the code on the HDD becomes active. You can just boot a burned disc with a softmod installer directly. A modified BIOS can also just ignore the HDD key (but you can also just zero it...). And I guess there are some other things, like an unmodified BIOS won't boot without the optical drive installed. Guess you could remove it for better cooling or install a second HDD? So nothing really that important IMHO. The normal softmod will stay installed and can do all the actually important things, like play burned games / HDD games, change video regions, disc regions, etc.

fair enough, but as someone who has had a hardmod since the early days of the console, the prospect of relying on ephemeral code on disk to maintain the mod is somewhat dubious to me


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:31 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
fair enough, but as someone who has had a hardmod since the early days of the console, the prospect of relying on ephemeral code on disk to maintain the mod is somewhat dubious to me


I'm not sure code on a flash chip is inherently less ephemeral than code on a HDD :D Plus, the BIOS mods had their own issue, like the infamous clock looping bug some of the earlier ones had.

Also, what's the worst that could happen? Say your softmod gets overwritten, now you have to pop in your copy of Splinter Cell one more time and reinstall the softmod.

I guess if your HDD got totally corrupted and the console didn't boot anymore you could maybe salvage things easier with a BIOS mod as you could maybe still boot from some sort of recovery disc? Not sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:42 pm 


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all the original caps in my 1.1, except the clock which failed spectacularly of course, are still going strong


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:48 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
all the original caps in my 1.1, except the clock which failed spectacularly of course, are still going strong


Maybe there are two types of xboxes, the ones were the clock super caps are shit and everything else is fine or vice-versa? :D In any case, if you buy an xbox, open the thing up and see what the caps are up to. Interestingly, the 1.4 worked just fine, despite the busted looking caps. Heck, they even measured good, ESR and all...


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:04 pm 



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ASDR wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
all the original caps in my 1.1, except the clock which failed spectacularly of course, are still going strong


Maybe there are two types of xboxes, the ones were the clock super caps are shit and everything else is fine or vice-versa? :D In any case, if you buy an xbox, open the thing up and see what the caps are up to. Interestingly, the 1.4 worked just fine, despite the busted looking caps. Heck, they even measured good, ESR and all...

All of the caps, including the clock cap, on my v1.0 were still in good condition when I last opened it a few months ago; but it does have significantly low hours, since I mostly kept it in storage/off since I bought it ~10 years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:54 pm 


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ASDR wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
all the original caps in my 1.1, except the clock which failed spectacularly of course, are still going strong


Maybe there are two types of xboxes, the ones were the clock super caps are shit and everything else is fine or vice-versa? :D In any case, if you buy an xbox, open the thing up and see what the caps are up to. Interestingly, the 1.4 worked just fine, despite the busted looking caps. Heck, they even measured good, ESR and all...


honestly, the discoloration on those caps just looks like corrosion from a humid environment. it certainly wouldn't mean they are bad. i've learned that most caps die from drying out and look normal even after death


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:38 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
honestly, the discoloration on those caps just looks like corrosion from a humid environment. it certainly wouldn't mean they are bad. i've learned that most caps die from drying out and look normal even after death


They have visibly domed and leaked electrolytic fluid through the pressure vent on the top. There's a crust of electrolytic residue on all of these. That's not corrosion from humidity. Especially since only one specific model of capacitor has leaked and all other caps in the console show no visible damage, neither are there signs of corrosion anywhere else.


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