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 Post subject: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:18 am 



Joined: 27 Jan 2016
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So I'm pretty much trying to find one CRT that is quality for the majority of retro games out there so that I save space and money. Plenty of PVMs are excellent for 240p/480i and plenty are also great for 480p. However, after a decent while searching, I have yet to find a single one that is good enough for all three. I've seen a number of people say that 480i is distracting on PVMs with 800-1,000 lines due to higher flicker and blank fields, and yet, I haven't found a 480p-capable CRT or PVM that isn't 800+ lines. Does anyone have any input on whether 480i on high-line monitors is actually iffy or not, and/or if any CRTs exist that can do 480p at sub-HD line counts? I'm willing to consider suggested alternatives. Thanks in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:43 am 


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I don't think you can find 480P without the monitor also having a higher line count that allows for 720p as well. The PVM-20L5 does 480p, and of course 720p and 1080i. Every model below that is stuck with 480i max.
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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:00 pm 


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the Sony PGM series ONLY syncs to 480p/VESA 640x480

it's rated for 700 horizontal resolution, which would be something like ~525TVL

EDIT: just realised that won't even help you though, since it can't do 480i


Last edited by maxtherabbit on Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:50 pm 



Joined: 27 Jan 2016
Posts: 5
Thanks for the help. That confirmation let me grasp what my next best option is.


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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:38 pm 


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I saw a pic at the CRT collective that goes like..600 lines is to soft and 800 lines is to sharp, to my eyes that is a true statement. When it comes to professional monitors it all comes down to availability in your area. The 20L5 seems to be what you are looking for but that monitor is not cheap when it becomes available.. However, if you love 240p content more than anything else then I would not recommend the 20L5 and a pure 15khz would be a better choice, something in the 800 lines.

Availability and price seems to be a yearly escalating issue of RGB monitors - I would not pay what the current market demands for RGB monitors. I would go the Sony consumer CRT (mostly free) way and use Component on all consoles 240p all the way to 1080i. That is a cheap and very efficient solution.
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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:48 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
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So first things first: you REALLY have to see 480i for yourself on a 800 TVL (or above) CRT to see if it bothers you or not - it's really personal preference and can vary GREATLY from person to person (and I even swear that not all 480i content is equal, and some seems to flicker more than others, even when played on the same set).

If you find that 480i content on a 800+ TVL CRT does bother you (with of course testing it on a lower TVL CRT as well to make sure you're fine with 480i, period), then you might need to use two different CRT's - something like a 20" SD PVM, and a ~20" VGA PC monitor for 480p (larger consumer sets might fit either bill as well). Two 20" monitors would take up a space around 3' wide, which is less wide than a pretty small 43" modern widescreen LCD TV.

If you're fine with 480i on a high TVL set, I would definitely suggest a multiformat pro CRT if you can find, and/or afford one. Common models are the Sony PVM-20L5, Sony BVM-D20/D24/D32, JVC/Ikegami multiformat (various models), etc.

Besides that, nothing like you're looking for exists that I know of, at least available for purchase. The closest one I can think of is the Panasonic DT-M3050W I picked up the other week (30", widescreen, multiformat 240p/480i/480p/720p/1080i, 600 TVL), but you're literally never going to find one of those (I've seen many D32's for sale for example, and never, ever, seen one of these Panasonics).


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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:08 pm 


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It really is personal. For me, 480i looks like garbage on ANY display, including consumer sets. I've just made peace with 480i being terrible, or laggy with proper deinterlacing


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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:18 pm 


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If your referring to a P ro V ideo M onitor. There are other brands. I would recommend looking for a Mitsubishi or Sharp. A lot of models support 15 kHz all the way to XGA.

The Sony’s are over priced IMO but any seller who knows his monitors is going to want a lot of cash for any pro monitor that checks those boxes
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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:28 pm 



Joined: 27 Jan 2016
Posts: 5
Dochartaigh wrote:
something like a 20" SD PVM, and a ~20" VGA PC monitor for 480p (larger consumer sets might fit either bill as well). Two 20" monitors would take up a space around 3' wide, which is less wide than a pretty small 43" modern widescreen LCD TV.

That's about what I concluded. I was mostly just making sure, but I can manage buying two monitors, especially since it seems for 480p, there are apparently far cheaper alternatives that actually compare to PVMs.


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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:57 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
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I know it's not the same thing, but how would a Tri-sync arcade monitor compare here? Those should do all of 240p, 480i, and 480p, yes?


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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:12 pm 



Joined: 27 Jan 2016
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nmalinoski wrote:
I know it's not the same thing, but how would a Tri-sync arcade monitor compare here? Those should do all of 240p, 480i, and 480p, yes?

Seems out of the question unless I get one asap. I don't strictly want one perfect monitor and was just being theoretical.


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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:46 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
I know it's not the same thing, but how would a Tri-sync arcade monitor compare here? Those should do all of 240p, 480i, and 480p, yes?

that seems like the closest match to the desires laid out in the OP


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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:07 pm 


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SNK-NEO-GEO wrote:
I saw a pic at the CRT collective that goes like..600 lines is to soft and 800 lines is to sharp


The CRT Collective has many people who do comparisons based on "experiments" without a very well-established control. Which 600TVL monitor were they looking at? What kind of condition was it in? There are many factors beyond the physical density of the monitor's aperture grille, but it always gets boiled down to "the TVL" like a distorted mantra. What about beam focus? What about abberation in the corners? How about bandwidth on one of the three component channels? And the aged of passive components that affect it?
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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:14 pm 


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Oh man $3,000 plus freight?

This guy knows his monitor but is asking way too much.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mitsubishi-XC- ... ctupt=true
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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:38 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 565
Depending on your budget and taste, there are various options that will do a nice job on 240p and 480p.

For pro high tvl monitors, the Ikegami HTM20 would be my personal monitor of choice. Sharpness is up there with the Sony BVM 20 - I.e. Too sharp for some tastes but awesome contrast and geometry. For something larger, the NEC XM29 will do 240p and 480p. I'm not a fan but some people like them.

The obvious choice, if the goal is to look good for all vintage games, is a tri-sync arcade monitor. Happ and Betson both sell them new still. I have two. They have a pitch that is comparable to a 480i crt tv or a cga arcade monitor. My 25" has a .8" pitch. My 27" has a .9" pitch. The image looks nice in all 3 modes.

This is my 27" tri-sync in 240p:

Image

Arcade monitors are the only decent option for EGA games (played at native res). You don't see many pro video monitors that can sync to 24khz. Maybe some ancient pc monitors but that's it.


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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:57 pm 


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A Tri-sync arcade monitor like the one Classicgamer talks about might be a really good option if you have a smaller budget, honestly.

The NEC XM37+ I had was pretty damn good with all of 240p, 480i and 480p+ to be honest. Great slot shadowmask monitor. You'll probably need some serious cash if you want one though, unless you're lucky and happen to discover one at a broadcast co. or something.


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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:21 am 



Joined: 27 Jan 2016
Posts: 5
nmalinoski wrote:
I know it's not the same thing, but how would a Tri-sync arcade monitor compare here? Those should do all of 240p, 480i, and 480p, yes?
Classicgamer wrote:
The obvious choice, if the goal is to look good for all vintage games, is a tri-sync arcade monitor.
FinalBaton wrote:
A Tri-sync arcade monitor like the one Classicgamer talks about might be a really good option if you have a smaller budget, honestly.
maxtherabbit wrote:
that seems like the closest match to the desires laid out in the OP

I quite appreciate all the willing recommendations. I can consider this resolved. I just need to be able to snatch one relatively soon before it becomes rare.


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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:42 am 


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FinalBaton wrote:
A Tri-sync arcade monitor like the one Classicgamer talks about might be a really good option if you have a smaller budget, honestly.

The NEC XM37+ I had was pretty damn good with all of 240p, 480i and 480p+ to be honest. Great slot shadowmask monitor. You'll probably need some serious cash if you want one though, unless you're lucky and happen to discover one at a broadcast co. or something.


What do you mean was?

That thing was a masterpiece.

What happened?
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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:31 pm 


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Hoagtech wrote:
What do you mean was?

That thing was a masterpiece.

What happened?

I had to sell it since I'm moving. There's just no way I was gonna carry this thing around, maybe more than once.

If I had a house and was set on living there all my life I would have absolutely kept it and put it in the basement and used it until it's death. But I live in an appartment and now because of a work opportunity I gotta move to another city, in an appartment again(2nd floor, tiny place). And then I'll still have to move at least 1 more time after that when I get a house, and maybe an additional time in-between then if I move in with a chick or need to switch neighborhood/city.

You get the idea, I had at least 2 moves and maybe more ahead of me, it really made no sense to keep the monitor. Even for the next move this july, I just couldn't get the monitor to the 2nd floor through a cramped staircase. My 25" RGB prosumer Trinitron, on the other hand, will be making the move with me, and will be a piece of cake to transport.

I sold it for pretty decent cash locally (although not as much as the $3K price tag people want online) so I'm not missing it too much. It was great monitor but it was basically an anchor to me, so I had to move on. Getting a good hunk of cash and having a killer 25" set certainly softened the blow :)


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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:35 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 565
If I had that issue, I think I'd consider a storage locker these days.

It's one thing to sell stuff you could easily buy again some day but with a CRT monitor you love, there is no guarantee you'll ever find one again.

I sold off all my old Neo Geo AES stuff when I moved to America along with my rgb scart Sony Trinitrons and my Hantarex Polo. Big mistake. I feel sick every time I see what my AES collection would have been worth today if I'd kept it.


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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:43 pm 


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I thought about that but I'm looking at at least 5 years of storage, and that's no change (something like $6000)

Not a bad idea honestly, and I get that it's a rare monitor and hard to buy back, but I can legit say I feel good about the decision and that's all that matters


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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:31 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 565
FinalBaton wrote:
I thought about that but I'm looking at at least 5 years of storage, and that's no change (something like $6000)

Not a bad idea honestly, and I get that it's a rare monitor and hard to buy back, but I can legit say I feel good about the decision and that's all that matters


$6000 is certainly more than I would have thought. I had assumed that lower cost long term storage was available.

For the $6000 you save, I'm sure you could find another decent CRT when you are ready.


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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:43 pm 



Joined: 30 Dec 2014
Posts: 486
Can personally recommend the bvm d20f1u, jvc dt17, and nec xm series. All 3 monitors do tri sync very well. The nec is shadow mask vs the sony and jvc aperture grill, but picture quality looks great all around on all 3 monitors. There are a few presentation displays out there from mitsubishi and panasonic that are similar to the nec's so keep your eyes out for those. But they are very hard to find.


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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:18 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:
For the $6000 you save, I'm sure you could find another decent CRT when you are ready.

I believe so too. The vast majority of my retro gaming (like, 95% at least, maybe more) is 240p stuff. And for that res, there are tubes I prefer to the NEC. Don't get me wrong the NEC looked pretty damn good. but there are at least 2 - 3 looks for 240p I like more. High-end consumer Trinitron is one. Lower tier PVM Trinitron is another. And slot shadowmask without apparent blanked line(just a consistent mesh appearence) like say the JVC TM-A13SU, is another. So I think I'll actually be happier with one of those pictures over the NEC's, since I game so much at 240p


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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:19 am 



Joined: 07 Oct 2015
Posts: 118
The Toshiba TIMM MM20E45 checks off all the boxes:
-240p/480i/480p. 15-40khz horizontal sync. It'll even do 800x600 @56hz and 1024x768 interlaced.....but
-500 TVL as per Toshiba (.58mm dot pitch 20in tube). Its not going to be high end PVM/BVM Trinitron sharp, but it applies just the right amount of "blur".
-Supports S-Video and composite (although the comb filter is a nasty looking notch filter), along with RF for your RF-only consoles.
-Uses a standard VGA port for the RGB input. Needs TTL sync signals though (use a sync seperater)
-Built-in stereo speakers

Sadly its a rare display. Toshiba was ahead of its time marketing a combination television and computer monitor. It did the TV part well, but was kinda lacking as a monitor (.58mm dot pitch wasn't great for a VGA monitor in 1995). 240p content looks pretty damned good on it though. OTA HDTV using a convertor box with a VGA output really pops too.


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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:05 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 565
The issue of a monitor requiring ttl is not solved by a sync separator. You might need a sync separator for sources that sync on composite video but that is nothing to do with ttl.

The issue relates to brightness and voltage. A PC outputs rgb at .7v. Old cga and EGA arcade boards output rgb at 2.5-5v. For some older cga monitors, this means you need a signal boost with pc or home console sources to stop them looking too dull. Or, for monitors designed for consumer rgb, you need to pass rgb from arcade PCBs through a resistor array to prevent excess brightness.

Both my tri-sync arcade monitors have a .75 ohm / 1 kohm switch to allow you to use both.


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 Post subject: Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:22 pm 



Joined: 07 Oct 2015
Posts: 118
Classicgamer wrote:
The issue of a monitor requiring ttl is not solved by a sync separator. You might need a sync separator for sources that sync on composite video but that is nothing to do with ttl..


This is what I was referring to. You can't plug composite video into the sync pins of the TIMM and expect it to work. Since the RGB port was designed for computers (VGA specs) in mind, you have to strip sync from composite and convert to 5v TTL level if the console doesn't already output it. As far as video levels are concerned, a properly built supergun would handle the hot video levels from arcade boards.


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