Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

This is the main shmups forum. Chat about shmups in here - keep it on-topic please!
User avatar
qmish
Posts: 1571
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:40 am

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by qmish »

I mean people understand "memorizing" differently.

Like, after 35 hours of DOJ i remember what happens where and how and what to do (like keeping in mind "traps" and whom to remove first etc), but if you ask me how many helicopters appear there or how many bullets they fire at you, i'm not a rain man... (which means, will i continue to fail? haha)
User avatar
DietSoap
Posts: 238
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:42 pm

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by DietSoap »

qmish wrote:So by memorizing he means "memorize the whole queue of several thousand inputs that you do with pressing buttons" yeah? So every run is totally identical?
Why not ask him directly? Not like he's banned.
User avatar
FRO
Posts: 2262
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:25 pm
Location: Nebraska, USA
Contact:

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by FRO »

Despatche wrote:2. Frame-perfect powerup cycles. You have to spawn the item at the right time and collect it at the right time every time.
Can you expand upon this a bit? I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you mean that you need to time the killing of the power-up ships at the right time, so that when the power-up icon spawns, you have time to get it before new threats approach?
User avatar
Obiwanshinobi
Posts: 7463
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:14 am

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

Answering the original question, I don't play "a lot of" any game anymore, but Raiden 1 was likely the latest shmup I played (last year or so), in its "Raiden Project" version, and I did enjoy it considerably (just the gaiety of it all, especially the music). The first and only one I have ever played seriously was III on PC, mind.
Been meaning to revisit "Raiden Project" lately, but it's been months since moving and I still have yet to set up all the necessary gear.
The rear gate is closed down
The way out is cut off

Image
User avatar
Despatche
Posts: 4196
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:05 pm

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by Despatche »

FRO wrote:Can you expand upon this a bit? I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you mean that you need to time the killing of the power-up ships at the right time, so that when the power-up icon spawns, you have time to get it before new threats approach?
Instead of just resetting the cycle timer when the powerup is revealed, like every other game in existence, Raiden cycle timers are dependent on when the powerup is revealed. This means that powerups have no problem switching on you at the last second unless you've carefully studied the behavior in advance. This is compounded by having to pick up cycling powerups to actually upgrade your firepower and the game often getting dangerous all of a sudden to the point where you can't reasonably go for the powerup any time soon. "Powerups are a trap" is a common phrase in Raiden.

You have to study every aspect of the game very carefully to play it on a very basic level, and the way you're asked to play it isn't solid enough to go through the effort. It's hard to find a game so annoying with every detail.
Rage Pro, Rage Fury, Rage MAXX!
shmupsrocks
Posts: 597
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:53 pm

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by shmupsrocks »

Despatche (or anybody else), since Raiden 1 is an inferior Toaplan ripoff, which Toaplan games would you consider the pinnacle of this style?
User avatar
OmegaFlareX
Posts: 884
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:15 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by OmegaFlareX »

Probably Kyukyoku Tiger/Twin Cobra and Tatsujin/Truxton. Hishouzame/Flying Shark is an earlier, but also good, comparison.

KT and TC are somewhat different in that KT is 1-player-at-a-time and has checkpoints, where TC has 2p simultaneous, instant respawn, and slightly faster copter controls. The other games' regional variants are mostly the same, although I think Truxton might be a bit easier than Tatsujin.
User avatar
FRO
Posts: 2262
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:25 pm
Location: Nebraska, USA
Contact:

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by FRO »

Despatche wrote:
FRO wrote:Can you expand upon this a bit? I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you mean that you need to time the killing of the power-up ships at the right time, so that when the power-up icon spawns, you have time to get it before new threats approach?
Instead of just resetting the cycle timer when the powerup is revealed, like every other game in existence, Raiden cycle timers are dependent on when the powerup is revealed. This means that powerups have no problem switching on you at the last second unless you've carefully studied the behavior in advance. This is compounded by having to pick up cycling powerups to actually upgrade your firepower and the game often getting dangerous all of a sudden to the point where you can't reasonably go for the powerup any time soon. "Powerups are a trap" is a common phrase in Raiden.

You have to study every aspect of the game very carefully to play it on a very basic level, and the way you're asked to play it isn't solid enough to go through the effort. It's hard to find a game so annoying with every detail.
This makes sense, thanks for the clarification. To be fair, obviously the game was designed to take as much of your money as possible, so that factors into the design, even if it's not very friendly toward the player. Having said that, it still made a huge impact, and the game still has a pull, even if that's mostly nostalgia, because we're still talking about it nearly 30 years later.
User avatar
Despatche
Posts: 4196
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:05 pm

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by Despatche »

I like that we got Raiden III/IV/V, as well as the Raiden Fighters series. I do not like that Raiden and Raiden II are put on a pedestal and that III/IV/V aren't played as much as they should be because of it. I also really don't like that Raiden hurt Toaplan more than Street Fighter II ever did.
shmupsrocks wrote:Despatche (or anybody else), since Raiden 1 is an inferior Toaplan ripoff, which Toaplan games would you consider the pinnacle of this style?
I don't even really care for Kyukyoku Tiger much, but it's significantly better at what Raiden does. Kyukyoku Tiger was the game that Raiden specifically built itself on.

Tatsujin and Same! Same! Same! are what come after Tiger. Tatsujin Ou comes after those. Other Toaplan games are also cool, but these are the games that have that specific kind of gameplay.
Rage Pro, Rage Fury, Rage MAXX!
User avatar
OmegaFlareX
Posts: 884
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:15 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by OmegaFlareX »

Raiden 3 sounds and plays ok, but man are the backgrounds ugly. Some of those early Type-X games... yikes.
User avatar
Exy
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:34 am

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by Exy »

Despatche wrote:Other Toaplan games are also cool, but these are the games that have that specific kind of gameplay.
What do you think of Batsugun and/or DonPachi? Do those still have a enough of that style for you to enjoy them, or are they too close to the CAVE style at that point?
User avatar
Shepardus
Posts: 3505
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:01 pm
Location: Ringing the bells of fortune

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by Shepardus »

Exy wrote:
Despatche wrote:Other Toaplan games are also cool, but these are the games that have that specific kind of gameplay.
What do you think of Batsugun and/or DonPachi? Do those still have a enough of that style for you to enjoy them, or are they too close to the CAVE style at that point?
They're nice games but not much like Raiden, if we're still talking about that. Tatsujin Ou is also not much like Raiden for what it's worth.
Image
NTSC-J: You know STGs are in trouble when you have threads on how to introduce them to a wider audience and get more people playing followed by threads on how to get its hardcore fan base to play them, too.
1CCs | Twitch | YouTube
User avatar
Furtin72
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:26 am
Location: germany

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by Furtin72 »

Totally love my Raiden PCB from time to time - in contrary to my wife. Everytime shes darting an angry glance at me and my mashing firefinger :D
Although I still cannot reach the higher levels on 1credit, it totally gives me the arcade vibe from back in the days. And I‘m enjoying it!
“The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel.”
User avatar
xxx128
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:56 pm
Location: NRW

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by xxx128 »

I often find myself playing Raiden 1 (jamma). Even the flawed, but still fun MD version. It's like one of those games that are so satisfying to play. Whats not to love?
shmupsrocks
Posts: 597
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:53 pm

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by shmupsrocks »

Same here. It's so satisfying for some reason. I'm going to try Flying Shark, Truxton, and Twin Cobra to see if it's a Toaplan thing and if I like those as much I'll do some more recon to see if it's a late 80's thing. I've been sticking to the 90's mainly for the graphics but maybe I've been missing the mark.
User avatar
Exy
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:34 am

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by Exy »

Shepardus wrote:They're nice games but not much like Raiden, if we're still talking about that. Tatsujin Ou is also not much like Raiden for what it's worth.
Ya, imo Truxton/Tatsujin and the Sharks etc aren't all that much like Raiden, but I can see the point of view that they are, if you see what I mean.
User avatar
Xyga
Posts: 7181
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: block

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by Xyga »

xxx128 wrote:Whats not to love?
Well since you seem new in the shmops community ima share some wisdom; you may already know but on the internet you are not allowed to enjoy games the Judges of the Gaming Inquisition tell you are bad. And for the games they tell you are good, you are expected to play them in a certain fashion, if you don't and stay casual and ignore the rules you will be burned at the stake. :twisted:

Fear not tho, not everyone around here is a memeber of the Inquisition, though we always expect them in such threads.


NB; I like the old Raidens too, that stupid raw bitchy gameplay and passé atmosphere feels like refreshing basic shmups challenge without the convolution and fluff of the later much more complex and refined material.
Strikers1945guy wrote:"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"
shmupsrocks
Posts: 597
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:53 pm

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by shmupsrocks »

Exy wrote:
Shepardus wrote:They're nice games but not much like Raiden, if we're still talking about that. Tatsujin Ou is also not much like Raiden for what it's worth.
Ya, imo Truxton/Tatsujin and the Sharks etc aren't all that much like Raiden, but I can see the point of view that they are, if you see what I mean.
Would you include Twin Cobra in that list?
User avatar
EmperorIng
Posts: 5060
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:22 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by EmperorIng »

There is a reason they didn't, you know. It's because Raiden is a shameless copy of Kyuukyoku Tiger/Twin Cobra.
User avatar
Despatche
Posts: 4196
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:05 pm

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by Despatche »

Tatsujin follows on from Tiger, even if it doesn't seem like it; only the way power levels work is changed, and powerup distribution is like R-Type. Same! Same! Same! follows from Tatsujin and has Tiger cycling again (and Tiger point items!). Tatsujin Ou uses Raiden-style powerups and even has a terrible starting shot like Tiger/Raiden (something the original Tatsujin tried to fix), and otherwise plays like Tatsujin or Same! Same! Same!. Don't let small details detract from the main idea.
Exy wrote:What do you think of Batsugun and/or DonPachi? Do those still have a enough of that style for you to enjoy them, or are they too close to the CAVE style at that point?
Batsugun and Donpachi aren't really like Raiden. Batsugun doesn't even play like other Toaplan or CAVE games, that game is extremely weird. Donpachi succeeds Grind Stormer far more than it does Batsugun.
Rage Pro, Rage Fury, Rage MAXX!
shmupsrocks
Posts: 597
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:53 pm

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by shmupsrocks »

Trying Tatsujin now and really enjoying it. Will try Kyukyoku Tiger next.

BTW should Tatsujin have a really crappy sounding gun? I'm on headphones and the music sounds great but the gun sounds like a static-y mess.

Can anyone translate that Japanese text on the orange sticker?

https://imgur.com/a/PqBDi3w
User avatar
Despatche
Posts: 4196
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:05 pm

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by Despatche »

Looks like a serial number. First line says "Tatsujin (Taito)". Third line is the build or manufacture date, November 1988.

Funny enough, this is one of the very few times you'll ever see the kanji "達人" (tatsujin) used for this game. Usually this game is just called "TATSUJIN" or "タツジン" even in Japan. Only the sequel used "達人".
Rage Pro, Rage Fury, Rage MAXX!
shmupsrocks
Posts: 597
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:53 pm

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by shmupsrocks »

Thank you Despatche.

I've been playing Tatsujin a bit and one of the things I appreciate the most about it is the choice of checkpoint locations. I feel like I'm able to try again at the perfect spot. Is this a hallmark of Toaplan? Any other developers use checkpoints this way?
User avatar
EmperorIng
Posts: 5060
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:22 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by EmperorIng »

Some of Konami's games have masterful use of checkpoints. The best is in my opinion Gradius 1, on the arcade. Every spot you restart from is a spot you can come back from, at least on the first loop (I don't have much experience with the later ones!).

Gradius II is mostly like this, though there are a few spots that may be overboard: people complain about the crystal stage (though I've never once died there. Get good, kiddos 8) ) and in my personal experience the boss rush at the penultimate stage could mercilessly end your run thanks to an inopportune zub spawn.

Several Irem games also fit, though the style of Irem games is probably the opposite of Toaplan. R-Type Delta in particular I think perfected R-Type's checkpoint system. There are about only two or so spots that are truly difficult to recover from (bio-mechanical sausage of doom, and the boss rush). The ship speed option makes recoveries far more forgiving since you are not moving a slug around a salt processing plant every time you restart.
is this a hallmark of Toaplan?
For the most part I'd think so. Their checkpoints are pretty good, though it took me a long time to stomach the idea of checkpoints. Kyuukyoku Tiger is like Tatsujin a lot, too, in that respect. Dogyuun doesn't have any power levels, so recovery is always possible since you don't need 8 power-ups to not-die, unlike in Raiden :mrgreen:

They aren't always good though; imo Tatsujin Ou, the sequel, rarely seems to set you up for success, and I think Myco has posted about the some locations being practically unwinnable if you die there.
User avatar
mycophobia
Posts: 751
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:08 pm
Contact:

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by mycophobia »

I don't think any of the checkpoints in Tatsujin Ou are flat out unwinnable, even in second loop, but they demand DDP chain-style precision just to survive with the little pea shooter you're reduced to.

Most of the time though, Toaplan games have perfectly fair and extremely well thought-out checkpoints, which are a big part of their appeal for me.

Giving the player lots of resources (such as bombs and lives) but having a checkpoint system in place to balance it is a very player-friendly approach to making a difficult but addictive game, I believe.
User avatar
Angry Hina
Posts: 359
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:44 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by Angry Hina »

Is it fair to judge Raiden because it does a lot of copying on Kyuukyoku? The game was three years old at the time Raiden came out. in this fast paced times in videogame standards, many players who appreciated Kyuukyoku should have been really glad to have a kinda true Kyuukyoku style game in the arcades with state of the arts graphics again.

Of course I see as well that Tatsujin and Same^3 are on their own followups of Kyuukyoku but the ship speed upgrades alone make big different in the all around feel of the games. Raiden goes some steps back again and gives in that way a more grounded/oldschool playstyle to the player and adds some spectacular audio visuals and more modern looking bullet patterns. Its clear for me, that Raiden appealed to many players at that time.

As much fun I had with Tatsujin, I am not a big fan of having to recover not only the weapon strength but also your movement so I am a bit more careful if I decide to begin a STG with speed upgrades, because it feels a bit as a more frustrating game element fo me, even if the difficulty of that game is not really much higher than another whithout speed upgrades.

Possibly many other players at the time didnt like the ultrafast movement of some of the Toaplan games as well. Toaplan itself dropped this element in newer titles. So Raiden seem to have a point in that regard.

(have played Kyuukyoku and classic raiden just a but so its a more generally viewpoint)
User avatar
copy-paster
Posts: 1682
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:33 pm
Location: Indonesia

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by copy-paster »

Angry Hina wrote:Is it fair to judge Raiden because it does a lot of copying on Kyuukyoku? The game was three years old at the time Raiden came out. in this fast paced times in videogame standards, many players who appreciated Kyuukyoku should have been really glad to have a kinda true Kyuukyoku style game in the arcades with state of the arts graphics again.
Raiden did the vulcan shot right than KTiger's purple shot, no more annoying high pitched SFX and it covers almost for the whole screen at max power.

RE: Old Raidens, I think Despatche had the right point of listing the game's flaw. Personally I don't like the checkpoints in 1 either cause it sucks, but the export version removes the checkpoint so recovery could still possible atleast. Difficulty in all three games also very brutal that I won't recommend to anyone really unless they're into it. DX in particular have this mental requirements of getting the true last stage+TLB in expert course which is no miss no bomb up until the end of stage 8, Seibu must be on high crack when pitching this idea, and ironically Cave followed this on their TLB requirements too.
User avatar
Angry Hina
Posts: 359
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:44 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by Angry Hina »

Perikles wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:49 am In fact, the jump in difficulty from the first Raiden to the second is one of the most pronounced ones I can think of when it comes to shmup sequels (specifically first game -> second game). There's also Rayforce -> Raystorm and Dragon Spirit -> Dragon Saber, but that's about all.
Possibly Thunder Force III -> IV.
Kollision wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:41 pm On the other hand, Seibu was genius in also providing great graphic/music to go along with the suffering. From the slow scrolling speed that allowed you to marvel at the terrains down below (cows flocking, humans running over bridges, floating roads, etc.), no other title at the time merged the sci-fi motif with close-to-home aesthetics like Raiden did, and that seems to have hit a nerve with audiences everywhere.
It looks really cool but sadly in the second half of the game there is not much interesting going on. By the way, is there any STG which is on par with Raiden II in terms of animated or destructable stage details? Its always a little sad, that later STGs were made under stricter time scedules and less money and couldnt add those things.
Despatche wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:17 am I like that we got Raiden III/IV/V, as well as the Raiden Fighters series. I do not like that Raiden and Raiden II are put on a pedestal and that III/IV/V aren't played as much as they should be because of it. I also really don't like that Raiden hurt Toaplan more than Street Fighter II ever did.
Has someone of the Toaplan guys or other devs of the time ever said that? Sounds a bit extreme because with STII the whole Arcade Zeitgeist changed and even the hardest in-genre competition whould have on the other hand kept the genre alive and interesting.
OmegaFlareX wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:21 pm Raiden 3 sounds and plays ok, but man are the backgrounds ugly. Some of those early Type-X games... yikes.
Its not a beautiful game but I think Raiden IV is not too much ahead of it. And to be fair, in the sixth console generation there werent that many beautiful 3D STGs. And it didnt got better in the seventh and beyond...


What I found to be interesting as I played R III the first time after I played R IV was how much of IV was already in III. Some stages has comparable ideas and enemies, the overall feel of the gameplay and the graphics/effects are not too far away from each other. Even more intersting was, that it felt equally competent made and well design (of course they did better in using the graphics engine). More or less everywere R IV is mentioned as the much better game of the two (and RIII as an overall at best mediocre game). But I found some aspects I like more in III. For instance the final Boss. it looks epic, sinister, scary in III and has a more interesting behavior and attack patterns. In R IV... its again some chrystal foe whithout personality and atmosphere in its design. The not so well received brown tone of some levels in III are a bit closer to some sort of distinct design idea of the entire game compared to IV.
PC Engine Fan X!
Posts: 8405
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:32 pm

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by PC Engine Fan X! »

I remember when my local arcade hangout, The Regency Game Palace, had gotten a brand new Seibu Kaihatsu Raiden II jamma conversion pcb kit complete with a full-sized arcade marquee (courtesy of Seibu arcade licensed distributor/seller Fabtek for the USA arcade market) in-housed in an upright Dynamo cab sporting a 19" Wells Gardner arcade crt monitor and the control panel populated with Happ arcade sticks/push buttons back in March of 1994. A "New Game" sign placed on top of the cab to denote that it was, indeed, a brand new arcade game. This arcade stg game was so popular that at one in the mid-1990s, nine Raiden II cabs were available to play throughout locally. The purple homing laser power-up really changed the first Raiden pcb's gameplay style & mechanics to a higher plateau. It was a awesome time to be an arcade gamer back in the early-to-mid 1990s.

What was interesting about the on-board lithium battery on a typical Raiden II jamma pcb (according to the arcade instruction manual) both high scores & high score initials would be saved upon it being powered down for the night. Unfortunately, once the back-up battery died, such high score retention functionality was lost for good/forever. I've got a USA region Fabtek licensed Raiden II jamma pcb still with the back-up battery installed.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~
Last edited by PC Engine Fan X! on Fri Feb 09, 2024 3:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
BareKnuckleRoo
Posts: 6162
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:01 am
Location: Southern Ontario

Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

I've tried to get into the classic Raiden games as well as Viper Phase 1 a few times. I think VP1's soundtrack is absolutely spectacular... but I really struggle to get into the game. The hitbox feels gargantuan in it. The Raiden Fighters series still have somewhat chunky hitboxes but they don't feel as massive, and it's probably the best way to experience VP1's green weapon. :p
Post Reply