What vintage games have you discovered this week?

[Classicgamer]

I don't know about you guys but with the easy availability of the worlds entire gaming back-catalog we have these days, I find myself alternating between that kid in a candy store feeling and just being overwhelmed by choice....

So, I thought it might be good for us to share recommendations when we discover something awesome... you know... for inspiration and what-not...

For example, I just discovered Biomechanical Toy (in mame). A game I completely missed the first time round. I had never heard of it before, or ever seen it in an arcade. It's like Metal Slug met Mario on acid:



It is fantastic in it's weirdness and surprisingly varied for a platform shmup.

I'll confess, I don't like the Metal Slug series as much as other people. Some consider it to be a Neo Geo top 10 but I find them all to be a little tedious. The games just keep throwing the same two or three baddies at you with little variation. And, each sequel is the same as the one before. Biomechanical toy has more variation in the first two levels than the entire MS series.

Don't get me wrong, the Neo Geo has some great shmups. It just makes me sad to see "top 10 lists" with Metal Slug and no Viewpoint or Shock Troopers 2 (my two favorite Neo Geo Shmups).

So... what are you guys playing this weekend?

[Square_Air]

Hey Classicgamer. Just for your information, discussion of Run and Gun games like Contra, Metal Slug, and their various ilk aren't commonly accepted to be under the shmup umbrella alongside other outliers like Rail Shooters, so this thread would actually belong in Off Topic. That being said, if you're interested in a thread where we talk about what shmups we're currently playing/have recently discovered, you can always use the Shmup Ticker thread.

As for Biomechanical Toy, I think it has some interesting stages, but the bosses are pretty boring if I recall correctly. While I think Metal Slug games have their issues, I consider MS2 with fixed speed to be better than BMT. I'm interested in trying this game again though for some new impressions, since the last time I played it was over 15 years ago.

[Classicgamer]

Hey Classicgamer. Just for your information, discussion of Run and Gun games like Contra, Metal Slug, and their various ilk aren't commonly accepted to be under the shmup umbrella alongside other outliers like Rail Shooters, so this thread would actually belong in Off Topic. That being said, if you're interested in a thread where we talk about what shmups we're currently playing/have recently discovered, you can always use the Shmup Ticker thread.

As for Biomechanical Toy, I think it has some interesting stages, but the bosses are pretty boring if I recall correctly. While I think Metal Slug games have their issues, I consider MS2 with fixed speed to be better than BMT. I'm interested in trying this game again though for some new impressions, since the last time I played it was over 15 years ago.

I didn't know that run and gun games weren't considered shmups here. I always thought of shmups as being any game where you control a sprite that shoots all the other sprites on screen. Albeit with a few sub-categories.

How are shmups defined here so I know for future? I.e. Is it only side scrolling shooters where you control a spaceship or plane? What about 3d and / or first person shooters like star fox, doom or the various PS2 Star Wars games (where you are in a space ship shooting baddies)?

I get that light gun and directional gun games are a category on their own. I never thought of them as shmups although I do love them. I bought a PS2 just for them recently.

Biomechanical toy is worth another look if you play on a CRT with a decent Groovymame set-up (the visual are half the magic). The bosses aren't the best but they are not so different to most other games in the genre. I.e. A large baddy that you have to shoot for longer than rest. It is the varied levels I found intriguing though.

E.g. For half of level three, you are being blown up (by wind from below) so it briefly feels like a vertical shmup. There are also various mini puzzles you have to figure out to proceed at certain points which makes it more interesting.

[sven666]

random arcade sports games.

usually passed to the bottom of the pile, the scourge of arcade collectors, but if you give them a fair chance stuff like winning spike, final round and grand striker 2 (just to mention a few) really are tons of fun...

had some sports titles mixed in on operating at the last Dreamhack event and they were very popular with the casual visitors, understandably so.

I usually try to push atleast a few of what I would call "high quality" games in the mix, stuff like espgaluda, demon front, blazing star or something like that, no one wants to play those.

[WelshMegalodon]

Vette!

I'm a sucker for pre-PlayStation 3D, so this caught my eye. Possibly not as impressive as Turbo Esprit, which did open-world driving three years earlier on considerably weaker hardware, but there's something surreal about those simple, unshaded polygons.

I also discovered Midwinter on the Amiga earlier this year, but I know it's old news to several of the members here.

Lastly, Exile. 8-bit computer gaming is fun once you look past all the crappy arcade ports and loading times that make the Neo Geo CD look fast.

[Ruldra]

Not this week but this is the best unknown, unique game I've ever discovered: Sea Rogue.

Sea Rogue is one of my most favorite underdogs of all time: it's eminently playable, fun, refreshing, original, and yet not many people have heard of it.

Designed by ex-Navy veterans at Software Sorcery, this game was published by MicroProse with unfortunately very little fanfare. Which is a shame, because it is not just the most realistic and enjoyable wreck hunting game ever made, it is also one of the most original and creative I've seen. The most amazing thing about Sea Rogue is the myriad of choices for every action you can take, all of which are authentic.

You are in command of a crew that sail the Atlantic and Caribbean looking for wrecks. Pick up tips and maps from bars, libraries and researchers. With the help of your navigator, land on the right coordinates signified by the map (be careful though-- some maps are fake). Send a few of your team members down, some with spearguns, some with metal detectors, and carefully map out the terrain according to levels of metal lurking beneath the muck, salvaging anything of value. A lot of research and attention to the actual methodology of wreck diving is evident here - each of the ships you find must be identified, and hundreds of real wrecks are included, each with accurate cargo manifest and background information. As you pull up encrusted swords and goblets from the Spanish fleet, you'll return to port to sell your booty and acquire information for more wrecks that promise even greater rewards.

The goal of the game is, of course, to accumulate enough wealth to retire and live happily ever after. To do that, though, means you will need to hunt dozens (if not hundreds) of wrecks until you can afford the "Sea Rogue" the world's most high-tech and expensive wreck hunting submarine. By the time you can afford the Sea Rogue, though, treasure hunting can get nasty, as your rival Eddy is out to rob you of your booty by whatever means necessary. Accordingly, the Sea Rogue comes equipped with torpedo tubes and other high-tech weaponry. Having the Sea Rogue also allows you to use deep-sea probes to explore more recent wrecks, e.g. freighters.

Here is your chance to find the world's famous wrecks, such as the Lusitania, or that ultimate goal of all wreck hunters: the Titanic. Because wreck locations are randomized with every new game, Sea Rogue's replay value is high, as you will always come across wrecks that you have not previously encountered in the previous game.

Overall, a must have for anyone with a slight interest in treasure hunting. Two thumbs up!

IIRC the manual had a list of all shipwrecks, you need to use it as reference to identify them in-game.

[Classicgamer]

random arcade sports games.

usually passed to the bottom of the pile, the scourge of arcade collectors, but if you give them a fair chance stuff like winning spike, final round and grand striker 2 (just to mention a few) really are tons of fun...

had some sports titles mixed in on operating at the last Dreamhack event and they were very popular with the casual visitors, understandably so.

I usually try to push atleast a few of what I would call "high quality" games in the mix, stuff like espgaluda, demon front, blazing star or something like that, no one wants to play those.

I am with you on that. Arcade sports games tend to be more fun than modern home console variants if you just want to pick up and play.

NBA Jam was a fav of mine back in the day. I also like soccer Brawl on the Neo Geo - it mixes sports and violence, a winning combo... and Super Sidekicks 3. I used to own both AES carts in the 90s to play with certain friends who were sports fans. Oh and that volley ball game Windjammers.

[Classicgamer]

Not this week but this is the best unknown, unique game I've ever discovered: Sea Rogue.

Sea Rogue is one of my most favorite underdogs of all time: it's eminently playable, fun, refreshing, original, and yet not many people have heard of it.

Designed by ex-Navy veterans at Software Sorcery, this game was published by MicroProse with unfortunately very little fanfare. Which is a shame, because it is not just the most realistic and enjoyable wreck hunting game ever made, it is also one of the most original and creative I've seen. The most amazing thing about Sea Rogue is the myriad of choices for every action you can take, all of which are authentic.

You are in command of a crew that sail the Atlantic and Caribbean looking for wrecks. Pick up tips and maps from bars, libraries and researchers. With the help of your navigator, land on the right coordinates signified by the map (be careful though-- some maps are fake). Send a few of your team members down, some with spearguns, some with metal detectors, and carefully map out the terrain according to levels of metal lurking beneath the muck, salvaging anything of value. A lot of research and attention to the actual methodology of wreck diving is evident here - each of the ships you find must be identified, and hundreds of real wrecks are included, each with accurate cargo manifest and background information. As you pull up encrusted swords and goblets from the Spanish fleet, you'll return to port to sell your booty and acquire information for more wrecks that promise even greater rewards.

The goal of the game is, of course, to accumulate enough wealth to retire and live happily ever after. To do that, though, means you will need to hunt dozens (if not hundreds) of wrecks until you can afford the "Sea Rogue" the world's most high-tech and expensive wreck hunting submarine. By the time you can afford the Sea Rogue, though, treasure hunting can get nasty, as your rival Eddy is out to rob you of your booty by whatever means necessary. Accordingly, the Sea Rogue comes equipped with torpedo tubes and other high-tech weaponry. Having the Sea Rogue also allows you to use deep-sea probes to explore more recent wrecks, e.g. freighters.

Here is your chance to find the world's famous wrecks, such as the Lusitania, or that ultimate goal of all wreck hunters: the Titanic. Because wreck locations are randomized with every new game, Sea Rogue's replay value is high, as you will always come across wrecks that you have not previously encountered in the previous game.

Overall, a must have for anyone with a slight interest in treasure hunting. Two thumbs up!

IIRC the manual had a list of all shipwrecks, you need to use it as reference to identify them in-game.

I never heard of Sea rogue. I'll give it a try. I like finding obscure titles.

[Classicgamer]

Vette!

I'm a sucker for pre-PlayStation 3D, so this caught my eye. Possibly not as impressive as Turbo Esprit, which did open-world driving three years earlier on considerably weaker hardware, but there's something surreal about those simple, unshaded polygons.

I also discovered Midwinter on the Amiga earlier this year, but I know it's old news to several of the members here.

Lastly, Exile. 8-bit computer gaming is fun once you look past all the crappy arcade ports and loading times that make the Neo Geo CD look fast.

My brother used to own an Amiga. My favorite game back then was Speedball 2 and it still is. I tried the Genesis version last week. Not quite as good as the Amiga version but close enough to enjoy.

The Amiga and Atari ST were actually pretty good little gaming computers. A huge step up from the Commodore 64, my 3rd least fav gaming machine of all time (after the Spectrum and Atari 2600).

The king of pre 3d era 3d is definately Viewpoint on the Neo Geo. I worked in a furniture shop for 2 weeks to buy the AES cart in 1993 and I am still addicted to it to this day.

I was less of a fan of the first polygon games like Sega's Virtua Racing and Virtua fighter. At the time I thought they looked like a step back in the graphics department compared to sprite based games which peaked by then.

[Square_Air]

I didn't know that run and gun games weren't considered shmups here. I always thought of shmups as being any game where you control a sprite that shoots all the other sprites on screen. Albeit with a few sub-categories.

How are shmups defined here so I know for future? I.e. Is it only side scrolling shooters where you control a spaceship or plane? What about 3d and / or first person shooters like star fox, doom or the various PS2 Star Wars games (where you are in a space ship shooting baddies)?

While the lines of where shmups end and begin are a little blurry, the eligibility section from the top 25 thread is probably the closest thing we have to a comprehensive resource.

Shmups:

• Non-scrolling playfield
  • Fixed Shooters (Space Invaders, Galaga)
    Maze Shooters (Berserk, Tank Battalion)
    Field Shooters (Robotron 2084, Smash TV, Geometry Wars)
    • including those set on a cylinder or torus (Asteroids, Star Castle)
  Scrolling playfield
  • Automatically scrolling shooters
    • Vertically scrolling shooters (Xevious, Cybattler)
      • including those set on a cylinder (Scion)
      Horizontally scrolling shooters (Gradius, R-Type)
      • including those set on a cylinder (Fantasy Zone)
      Isometrically scrolling shooters (Zaxxon, Viewpoint)
    Multi-directional auto-scrolling shooters set on a torus (Bosconian, Time Pilot '84)
  Manually advancing ("push-scroll") shooters
  • Manually advancing horizontally scrolling shooters (In The Hunt, Mr. Heli no Daibouken)
    • including those set on a cylinder (Defender)
    Manually advancing vertically scrolling shooters (OutZone, Ikari Warriors)
    Manually advancing multi-directional shooters (Granada, KiKi KaiKai, Bangai-O)
    • including those set on a torus or infinite plane (Sinistar)
  Outliers or Grandfathered titles:
  • Every Extend series
    Gyruss and clones
    Tempest, clones, and sequels

Not generally accepted as being shmups:

• First-person perspective shooters (Doom, Solvalou)
  • including Lightgun Shooters (House of the Dead, Rail Chase)
  
  Platform Shooters (Contra, Metal Slug)
  Rail Shooters (Rez, Panzer Dragoon)
  Gallery/Carnival Shooters (NAM-1975, Cabal)
  Action-Adventure Games (Alien Breed, Gauntlet, Legend of Zelda)

[Sumez]

random arcade sports games.

usually passed to the bottom of the pile, the scourge of arcade collectors, but if you give them a fair chance stuff like winning spike, final round and grand striker 2 (just to mention a few) really are tons of fun...

I cannot recommend Goal! Goal! Goal! enough!

[FinalBaton]

NHL '94 is UH-mazing (as is '95 and '96)

I still, from time to time, invite my buds over and we have some poutine, then we get a couple two-four of Labatt 50 and pop in NHL '94 in the ol' Sega Genesis, with the 4-way Play adapter. We take a piece of paper and draw a playoff bracket on there and off we go! killer evening. We have a hell of a time!

Not that big a fan of sports game but that one just transcends the genre, it's one of my fave games ever. It helps that we're massive hockey fans, though. for sure

[Kiates]

My brother used to own an Amiga. My favorite game back then was Speedball 2 and it still is. I tried the Genesis version last week. Not quite as good as the Amiga version but close enough to enjoy.

The Amiga and Atari ST were actually pretty good little gaming computers. A huge step up from the Commodore 64, my 3rd least fav gaming machine of all time (after the Spectrum and Atari 2600).

Those were the days for sure. Speedball 2 - the memories huddled around my friends computer playing 4 player tournaments. C64 and Amiga are where I think I played the most games growing up. I have fond memories of Pygnosis games in particular.

[gameoverDude]

Rootin' Tootin' (La-Pa-Pa) is good for an early title. This is a fun Pac-Man like maze game where you're a tuba throwing musical notes around (which can hit & clear out enemies for extra points). It looks like Data East had beaten Namco's Pac-Mania to the idea of a jump button here. You'll be using that a lot. The enemies are other musical instruments, such as Trien the triangle gong that drops spiked things around the maze.

RT's gameplay is solid. Data East really should've thought about remaking it for MD/Genesis, like Tengen did with Ms. Pac-Man.

[Marc]

Rootin' Tootin' (La-Pa-Pa) is good for an early title. This is a fun Pac-Man like maze game where you're a tuba throwing musical notes around (which can hit & clear out enemies for extra points). It looks like Data East had beaten Namco's Pac-Mania to the idea of a jump button here. You'll be using that a lot. The enemies are other musical instruments, such as Trien the triangle gong that drops spiked things around the maze.

RT's gameplay is solid. Data East really should've thought about remaking it for MD/Genesis, like Tengen did with Ms. Pac-Man.

Never heard of this, but I always preferred DE's Lock 'n' Chase to Pac Man, so will definitely have to give this a whirl. Cheers.

[Classicgamer]

I didn't know that run and gun games weren't considered shmups here. I always thought of shmups as being any game where you control a sprite that shoots all the other sprites on screen. Albeit with a few sub-categories.

How are shmups defined here so I know for future? I.e. Is it only side scrolling shooters where you control a spaceship or plane? What about 3d and / or first person shooters like star fox, doom or the various PS2 Star Wars games (where you are in a space ship shooting baddies)?

While the lines of where shmups end and begin are a little blurry, the eligibility section from the top 25 thread is probably the closest thing we have to a comprehensive resource.

Shmups:

• Non-scrolling playfield
  • Fixed Shooters (Space Invaders, Galaga)
    Maze Shooters (Berserk, Tank Battalion)
    Field Shooters (Robotron 2084, Smash TV, Geometry Wars)
    • including those set on a cylinder or torus (Asteroids, Star Castle)
  Scrolling playfield
  • Automatically scrolling shooters
    • Vertically scrolling shooters (Xevious, Cybattler)
      • including those set on a cylinder (Scion)
      Horizontally scrolling shooters (Gradius, R-Type)
      • including those set on a cylinder (Fantasy Zone)
      Isometrically scrolling shooters (Zaxxon, Viewpoint)
    Multi-directional auto-scrolling shooters set on a torus (Bosconian, Time Pilot '84)
  Manually advancing ("push-scroll") shooters
  • Manually advancing horizontally scrolling shooters (In The Hunt, Mr. Heli no Daibouken)
    • including those set on a cylinder (Defender)
    Manually advancing vertically scrolling shooters (OutZone, Ikari Warriors)
    Manually advancing multi-directional shooters (Granada, KiKi KaiKai, Bangai-O)
    • including those set on a torus or infinite plane (Sinistar)
  Outliers or Grandfathered titles:
  • Every Extend series
    Gyruss and clones
    Tempest, clones, and sequels

Not generally accepted as being shmups:

• First-person perspective shooters (Doom, Solvalou)
  • including Lightgun Shooters (House of the Dead, Rail Chase)
  
  Platform Shooters (Contra, Metal Slug)
  Rail Shooters (Rez, Panzer Dragoon)
  Gallery/Carnival Shooters (NAM-1975, Cabal)
  Action-Adventure Games (Alien Breed, Gauntlet, Legend of Zelda)

The only distinction I can see, based on that list between what is considered shmups here and run and gun games is that the main sprite you control has to be some kind of aircraft or space ship instead of a man.

I.e. You can have two games with identical gameplay and one would be considered a shmup and the other not if you change the ship to a man. Take Shock Troopers 2 on the Neo Geo, for example, if you changed the main sprite to a space ship and left everything else the same, it would be a shmup by that definition.

If you compare space invaders to Pang, the objective is the same. You have to shoot up while moving left and right to dodge baddies. You progress to the next level when you have dispatched all the baddies on screen. Why is space invaders a shmup but Pang isn't?

[Classicgamer]

random arcade sports games.

usually passed to the bottom of the pile, the scourge of arcade collectors, but if you give them a fair chance stuff like winning spike, final round and grand striker 2 (just to mention a few) really are tons of fun...

I cannot recommend Goal! Goal! Goal! enough!

It's ok but there are 3 better soccer games on the Neo Geo. Super Sidekicks 3, super Sidekicks 4 and Soccer brawl.

You just gave me a flashback of playing Winning Eleven on the PS1. I had it on Japanese import. I can still remember the Japanese commentary. It was hilarious.

[Classicgamer]

This is exactly what I hoped for from this thread. I now have a bunch of games I never heard to try instead of staring at that incredibly long list.

I played puzzle bobble on the Neo Geo today. I used to love that game. There is no reason why it should be so fun and addictive but it just is.

Did anyone here ever used to play Pang, Dynamite Dux or Cabal on the Amiga (or arcade)?

[WelshMegalodon]

The only distinction I can see, based on that list between what is considered shmups here and run and gun games is that the main sprite you control has to be some kind of aircraft or space ship instead of a man.

The general consensus here is that run 'n guns and shooters proper are differentiated by the gravity acting on the player character.

There have been more threads and discussions about this very topic than I could ever hope to find, though it didn't stop me from trying:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=949
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7093
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14418
viewtopic.php?t=25657
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35386
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=40712
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48706

[orange808]

And then there's Gravitar.

[Sumez]

It's ok but there are 3 better soccer games on the Neo Geo. Super Sidekicks 3, super Sidekicks 4 and Soccer brawl.

Better, maybe. But more fun to play against friends while drunk? That's more debatable.

[Marc]

It's ok but there are 3 better soccer games on the Neo Geo. Super Sidekicks 3, super Sidekicks 4 and Soccer brawl.

Better, maybe. But more fun to play against friends while drunk? That's more debatable.

I've got SS2 on PS4, but it's quite shallow even in comparison to something like ISS Deluxe on SNES. Did the sequels improve on it markedly?

[ZacharyB]

Why is space invaders a shmup but Pang isn't?

I haven't played Pang, but the critical difference between "shmup" and "run 'n' gun" seems to be an element of forced timing. Most shmups scroll automatically, and most run 'n' guns don't. Like WelshMegalodon said, there might also be an extra player control element, like jumping.

In shmups, the player is generally forced to anticipate enemy placement, and the attacks of such enemies, and then optimize their killing. Because the scrolling is automatic, the timing will be the same every time. This allows the player to perfectly time all movements, like a dance. Recently, there's also a heavy emphasis on doing something special to increase the score more than it would normally go up from just wantonly killing everything.

[Classicgamer]

It's ok but there are 3 better soccer games on the Neo Geo. Super Sidekicks 3, super Sidekicks 4 and Soccer brawl.

Better, maybe. But more fun to play against friends while drunk? That's more debatable.

Soccer Brawl takes the cake on that one. The mix of sports and violence makes it an ideal partner for beer.

[Classicgamer]

It's ok but there are 3 better soccer games on the Neo Geo. Super Sidekicks 3, super Sidekicks 4 and Soccer brawl.

Better, maybe. But more fun to play against friends while drunk? That's more debatable.

I've got SS2 on PS4, but it's quite shallow even in comparison to something like ISS Deluxe on SNES. Did the sequels improve on it markedly?

Yes. Super Sidekicks 3 is a noticeable step up in gameplay and graphics over 1 and 2.

I doubt this series or any Neo Geo game would look acceptable in HD from a PS4 though. You need Groovymame and a crt monitor or a real MVS board to get the most from these games.

As for being shallow, that is kind of a requirement for arcade games that just needed to be fun for a few minutes. It was a problem for arcade ports back in the day when each game was $50 and I was paying with pocket money. Now there is less of a need to get our money's worth as most of us have thousands of arcade games on our hard drives.

The way I play now is more like what I did in the arcades. I pick up a joystick for 20-30minutes here and there. Neo Geo games are perfect for this. I wouldn't describe any as deep though...

[Classicgamer]

Why is space invaders a shmup but Pang isn't?

I haven't played Pang, but the critical difference between "shmup" and "run 'n' gun" seems to be an element of forced timing. Most shmups scroll automatically, and most run 'n' guns don't. Like WelshMegalodon said, there might also be an extra player control element, like jumping.

In shmups, the player is generally forced to anticipate enemy placement, and the attacks of such enemies, and then optimize their killing. Because the scrolling is automatic, the timing will be the same every time. This allows the player to perfectly time all movements, like a dance. Recently, there's also a heavy emphasis on doing something special to increase the score more than it would normally go up from just wantonly killing everything.

If forced scrolling is a requirement, then how does space invaders get the shmups ranking?