Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

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tomwhite2004
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by tomwhite2004 »

evil_ash_xero wrote:Retroarch has some SWEET CRT filters, from what I've seen. I don't know why Kev is sticking with HQ and X-Ray. Talented guy....but jeez...
CRT shaders (they are not filters) rely on a GPU and the high resolution of your HDTV to work well and look good, you are never getting anything like that out of this type of device.

Don't waste your time trying to get anything over to Kevtris or expecting any changes whatsoever, this was his response this morning to someone again pointing out the flaws with the 8:7 mode.

Image
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Fudoh
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Fudoh »

Here's a pic of it on my 32 Samsung. I can't get this soft of a look on any other of my TVs.
some TVs have their neutral sharpness setting offset from zero, meaning you can actually blur your input by lowering the value from the neutral position. On most Sonys of the past 10 years neutral sharpness means a setting of about 25-30/100. I assume that at least some manufacturers handle it the same way.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by evil_ash_xero »

Fudoh wrote:
Here's a pic of it on my 32 Samsung. I can't get this soft of a look on any other of my TVs.
some TVs have their neutral sharpness setting offset from zero, meaning you can actually blur your input by lowering the value from the neutral position. On most Sonys of the past 10 years neutral sharpness means a setting of about 25-30/100. I assume that at least some manufacturers handle it the same way.
Ah...makes sense. Well, I'm a fan of this practice. :lol:
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by evil_ash_xero »

tomwhite2004 wrote:
evil_ash_xero wrote:Retroarch has some SWEET CRT filters, from what I've seen. I don't know why Kev is sticking with HQ and X-Ray. Talented guy....but jeez...
CRT shaders (they are not filters) rely on a GPU and the high resolution of your HDTV to work well and look good, you are never getting anything like that out of this type of device.

Don't waste your time trying to get anything over to Kevtris or expecting any changes whatsoever, this was his response this morning to someone again pointing out the flaws with the 8:7 mode.

Image
Yeah, I've noticed this with him. And he seems to just be doing as told on this one too.

OK, shaders. Well, I guess then I would just like the interpolation slider, that used to be in the HDNES. That worked well enough.

Maybe someday someone will come up with some custom firmware. I'm not holding my breath. But hey... SD2SNES now has save states and you can play Yoshi's Island on it...so, some people come up with things.

That being said, I did get an e-mail back from Analogue saying they would mention it for consideration, and updates would be coming soon. Who knows?
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tomwhite2004
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by tomwhite2004 »

evil_ash_xero wrote:Well, I guess then I would just like the interpolation slider, that used to be in the HDNES. That worked well enough.
You can enable or disable horizontal and vertical interpolation separately in the scaler section when you have the advanced mode ticked.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by evil_ash_xero »

tomwhite2004 wrote:
evil_ash_xero wrote:Well, I guess then I would just like the interpolation slider, that used to be in the HDNES. That worked well enough.
You can enable or disable horizontal and vertical interpolation separately in the scaler section when you have the advanced mode ticked.
It's not really the same. But I did try that out, and it does fuzz it up some. I'll experiment with that on the bigger TVs.
Last edited by evil_ash_xero on Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Fudoh »

It's not really the same.
do you maybe know of any video that shows the feature on the NES?
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by evil_ash_xero »

Fudoh wrote:
It's not really the same.
do you maybe know of any video that shows the feature on the NES?
You know...I feel kinda fucking stupid now. lol... I did what the above poster said, and on the other TVs, it blurred it up. lol... All I had to do was adjust the scanlines.

WELL...

Yeah, but the one for the NES is just adjustable (before it was removed with the latest firmware). You just have way more control over how blurry or clear it is. I do prefer that. But that solved a lot of issues there.
On the TV in my room, I had the H disabled. Whereas on the other TVs, I need to disable both. (Still needs a slider though)

Hooray.

Now if Kev will just add the Interpolation back into the HDNES, and we can get rid of that shaky picture. I don't like having to choose between good colors and smooth scrolling.

But thanks guys. This forum's always quite useful.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Larrs888 »

Fudoh wrote:@Larrs888: the FM and the Super Nt behave basically identically in 720p. SMW is not supposed to fill your screen top to bottom. If it does, when you probably have overscan enabled on the display.
FBX wrote:
Larrs888 wrote: On the super NT when o use 3x 4:3 mode at 720p games that should fill the top and bottom of the screen have a black border around the whole screen. I don’t have a SNES classic mini but my nes classic fills the top and bottom ok.
The Super NES has 224 active vertical pixels. The NES has 240. So for SNES 224 * 3 = 672. For NES 240 * 3 = 720. That's why the NES fills your screen vertically in 720p, while the Super Nt does not. This is normal behavior for 3x scale.
Thanks guys, I should have remembered that :) and I feel a bit silly as I had overscan enabled as well but forgot all about it, as the setting was buried deep in my TVs menu. I used a different input on my TV for the Super NT and forgot about the overscan setting :oops:
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by FBX »

We had a rather lengthy discussion in discord about the bizarre behavior of the vertical scaling algorithm in the Super Nt, in addition to the visible window being tied to the algorithm, causing faulty math and output conditions.

For example:

If you max the vertical out to 5x (1200), the visible window only shows 1175 vertical res, resulting in a total clip of 9 pixels instead of just 8. I cross-referenced this on two different displays as well as my E1S capture card, and the result was exactly the same. Here's the lossless capture showing the net loss of an extra pixel row:

Image

Note how also in that image the vertical position had to be lowered to 40 in order to center in on the active 1175 lines.

It gets even worse for non-integer scaling. If you enable HV interpolation and attempt to scale to fit the screen vertically, the math dictates you should be able to set the res at 1410x1157. However, due to the faulty scaling algorithm, this ends up clipping a couple rows of pixels. The closest you can get is 1406x1153, and you have to set the vertical position to 44. Below is the lossless capture for proof of that as well:

Image

So there are some rather strange bugs with the scaling function in the Super Nt. Nothing deal-breaking, but it is something that shouldn't be happening. For those that like fullscreen or clipped overscan 5x, you're not able to get the best experience in those modes.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Fudoh »

Nothing deal-breaking, but it is something that shouldn't be happening
It's nothing deal breaking and it can happen. The bad thing here is, that it didn't get fixed yet. And compared to the time and effort Kevtris put into fixing isolated bugs in obscure game titles and considering how much of an "enthusiast" machine this is, fixing the user experience (which includes these scaling bugs) should be a top priority.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Wolf_ »

Fudoh wrote:
Nothing deal-breaking, but it is something that shouldn't be happening
It's nothing deal breaking and it can happen. The bad thing here is, that it didn't get fixed yet. And compared to the time and effort Kevtris put into fixing isolated bugs in obscure game titles and considering how much of an "enthusiast" machine this is, fixing the user experience (which includes these scaling bugs) should be a top priority.
I'm sure now that it has been identified he will fix it when time allows. That might not be for a little while though because he's evidently working on his next super secret project right now. (My money is on PS1 but Genesis and Neo Geo have also been mentioned)
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by evil_ash_xero »

Oh, I wouldn't get too excited about a fix.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by philexile »

I’m still super excited for the additional cores, bug fixes, and controller adapters coming out for the NT Mini! Oh wait... :mrgreen:
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by evil_ash_xero »

I'm excited about normal scalers like bicubic and bilinear, rather than HQ and SuperEagle, and whatever the heck is in there. Oh wait. :|

I've actually tried passing that along to him, thru two different avenues.

With the color problem (which is HUGE, and in my opinion makes that product faulty) in Hi Def NES, and him not really wanting to listen to customer feedback, I'm probably not going to buy anything else with his name attached to it. Which is a real shame, as he's one of the only people who are doing this.
I guess I'll just have to stick with the CRTs. Good thing I have 5 functioning ones, and two that need fixing.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by evil_ash_xero »

So, how you guys feeling about Super Turrican - Director's Cut?

I've never played the series, and I know that 2 on the Amiga is basically all anyone is going to say if you're asking about it...
But let us stay in SNES land. :lol:

How do you like it? For those who've played the original.
I've never played Super Turrican. I feel like I'm playing GunLord (well, it was a "tribute"..so). Has some sweet music.

Seems like a fun run n gun. But I did like GunLord, as well. I still don't like that weird thing about these games where you shoot a platform and it's like a pinata of power ups. I've always found that to be really odd.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by BrianC »

evil_ash_xero wrote:So, how you guys feeling about Super Turrican - Director's Cut?
The new stuff is interesting, but the game still feels like a beta. One of the stages that was restored was used in Mega Turrican, but is missing the boss of that stage. I also read that there's still no fight against The Machine and the game still ends on the alien stage. I'm not sure if anything was changed with the 4.6 update since I noticed that the sound effect plays when moving between options on the title screen and I thought it was missing before (not completely sure on this, though).
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Windfish »

any interesting developments with the system? i still have mine in the box, i drifted away from retro gaming for a bit.

since analogue nt mini is out of stock (and may never be reproduced), i was hoping that the super nt could be jailbroken to play NES rooms? anything like that going on?
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by fernan1234 »

Windfish wrote:any interesting developments with the system? i still have mine in the box, i drifted away from retro gaming for a bit.

since analogue nt mini is out of stock (and may never be reproduced), i was hoping that the super nt could be jailbroken to play NES rooms? anything like that going on?
It's not happening ever because the guy who makes the cores is now on their payroll, and even when he eventually is not he won't risk litigation from them.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Guspaz »

Windfish wrote:any interesting developments with the system? i still have mine in the box, i drifted away from retro gaming for a bit.

since analogue nt mini is out of stock (and may never be reproduced), i was hoping that the super nt could be jailbroken to play NES rooms? anything like that going on?
Two things of note happened since launch, other than firmware updates to iron out almost all the problems:

1) There is a jailbreak firmware that lets you load ROMs from the SD card. A recent update to the jailbreak firmware added support for a bunch of enhancement chips, allowing games like Super Mario Kart and Mega Man X2/3 to run. It even supports a chip the SD2SNES doesn't. Notable unsupported chips are the SA-1 and SuperFX... which the SD2SNES does support.

2) The official DAC is almost ready to ship, which will let you connect your Super Nt and Mega Sg to via analog video connections, including YPbPr component, RGBS, RGsB, RGBHV, s-video, and composite.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by fernan1234 »

Guspaz wrote:It even supports a chip the SD2SNES doesn't.
Is that the ST-011 chip? That's interesting, though only one game uses it (a shogi/Japanese chess game).
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Windfish »

Thanks for the update, everyone.

What do you guys think about the wireless 8bitdo SN30 controllers? I have heard that there is a dpad problem, but what has been your experience?
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Guspaz »

I've never been terribly sensitive to it in the first place... MLIG reported that it was better in the newer ones, and could more or less be solved by putting two binder reinforcement stickers around the contacts on the PCB for each direction.

Right now I've switch to using the 2.4 GHz SN30 controllers with a raphnet classic-to-snes controller adapter, which in theory should have roughly 8-9ms of latency with a lot more consistency than the bluetooth ones. I've heard rumours that 8bitdo will release a 2.4 ghz receiver for the SNES, which would cut that latency in half and avoid the need for the adapter.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Windfish »

Guspaz wrote:I've never been terribly sensitive to it in the first place... MLIG reported that it was better in the newer ones, and could more or less be solved by putting two binder reinforcement stickers around the contacts on the PCB for each direction.

Right now I've switch to using the 2.4 GHz SN30 controllers with a raphnet classic-to-snes controller adapter, which in theory should have roughly 8-9ms of latency with a lot more consistency than the bluetooth ones. I've heard rumours that 8bitdo will release a 2.4 ghz receiver for the SNES, which would cut that latency in half and avoid the need for the adapter.
Is the 2.4 GHz SN30 compatible with the current SNES retro receiver?
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Fudoh »

No, the seperately available retro receivers are strictly bluetooth. The 2.4Ghz controllers are bundled with their own receivers.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Guspaz »

It's why I bought the NES/SNES Classic version of the SN30 (the 2.4 GHz one that only works with its own receivers) and then use the raphnet adapter to connect them to the SNES. It's a fair bit less latency.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Windfish »

Thanks for the replies. I just saw that the receiver is compatible with a lot of modern bluetooth controllers. I hope latency isn't an issue.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by bigbadboaz »

It's an issue as far as whatever Bt controller you're using happens to be laggier than something else. 8bitdo's Bt controllers across the board are noticeably slower than their 2.4g ones.

to anyone here with detailed knowledge of the standard: is there something about Bluetooth that means this will always be so, or is the fault more likely with 8bitdo? It's tough to continually seek out 2.4g controllers with dedicated receivers when the Bt versions would be more widely compatible.
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by werk91 »

Fudoh wrote:No, the seperately available retro receivers are strictly bluetooth. The 2.4Ghz controllers are bundled with their own receivers.
And those 2.4Ghz controllers are only available for the NES/SNES mini classic consoles and not for the original consoles right? At least I can't find them anywhere
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Re: Analogue announces the Super Nt for $189 (SNES)

Post by Guspaz »

Yes, while they're rumoured to have SNES 2.4ghz receivers in the works, at the moment you'd need to use an adapter to connect the receivers to a SNES. It adds another ~4ms of latency, but the end result should still be significantly lower latenency than the bluetooth controllers.
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