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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:22 pm 


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You know Sumez, I really didn't want to watch that trailer in its entirety, because I think one major problem with gaming expectations nowadays, compared to Playstation days, is just that: having access to much of the content before really having the game in hands, will no doubt diminish its impact. Ahh, but oh well, I'm following you because I also like you and your civil approach to debate. :)

(well, your post also makes me think that I should give away my steam code to a fellow shmupper since I'm in you same boat!)

I'll follow your reasoning only if we agree to remove SotN's "splendor" from the equation, though.
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Though already here we can tell that we are far from the incredible splendor of SotN's rich backgrounds
:)
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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:57 pm 


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0:17 the problem you're lamenting here wasn't possible in SotN days: camera handling and connection with ground.

0:22 actually the statue looks nothing like marble or plaster, it's just too shiny...

0:26 indeed that bulging is bad.

0:30 here again, the problem is what we can call a "cutscene problem". We can agree that zooming on these models to have a kind of narration is not good. SoTN never does this of course, but the Rondo remake does the exact same thing at every boss approach, and with the same, not spectacular results. I hope we can agree though that this isn't the main dish, it's complementary cutscenes.

0:34 see 0:26

0:38 see 0:30

0:40 "These gameplay scenes actually looks decent." big surprise here: that's supposed to be the 95% of the time you'll spend with the game. Once the skippable clumsy cutscenes are over, this decency is the main bulk of the game. I'm seeing it in motion for the first time here to answer you, and I don't think it looks half bad - certainly on the average of what UGnG and DracX PSP have to offer. No 2D "splendor", but we ruled that out ;)

0:47 bosses seems to sum on them two kinds of issues: low poly and cutscene-like zoomed effects.

0:50 I have a terrible confession to make here: my portrait will annoy the lot of you as well :oops:

0:53 I concur on the village badness. But this also means the castle interiors are better than this, and hopefully we'll get more castle than else...

0:54 there is a... stone arch supporting that torch? but it's poorly done, agree.

0:56 I agree, it seems it's very difficult to restitute the correct visual feel of materials with 3D graphics. The glossiness of it all is jarring. With a bit of luck, some of it may be corrected on-the-fly (seems mostly a lighting of surfaces issue). Regrettably, PSP low-poly graphics had the major advantage to be gloss and shiny-free.

0:58 again, to nitpick, that stone doesn't really feel like stone. But oh well. I think whenever you freeze the action, you get disappointed, but in motion of it all, It's passable. In its style. (remember, no bringing back the splendor or old times).

1:02, 1:13 gripes about bad cutscenes.

Ok, in my book, the segment 0:40~1:00 gets a pass. Nothing spectacular, and nothing comparable to the snowy backdrops of Dawn of Sorrow that you brought in, but flows reasonably in motion and looks on the level of DracX or UGnG. Which was to be the realistic expectation. Not a lavishly handcrafted pixelated masterpiece (we got Henk Nieborg, Konjak for those), but an update of what Iga had tried on the PSP, with the unwelcome side effect that time has passed and the same approach feels inevitably more dated in the PS4pro 4k days than it did in 2007 (when it was already, make no mistake, a sort of "retro-flavored" approach). Alas, that was the approach they settled for at the *day one* of campaign, and not even ten millions would significantly change the outcome: 3D zoomed in boots would still feel like floating on ground textures, and bosses cutscenes would still feel like a second-rate use of an engine which is being optimised to do something else (to render decently what you see between 0:40 and 1:00, that is).

I'd say the flaws, and the high points, what works and what doesn't mimics to an uncanny extent what you can see here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIBRO8MFK0Y

we could have fun dissecting this video scene by scene too.
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Last edited by Turrican on Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:31 pm, edited 9 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:07 pm 


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Jonny2x4 wrote:
Let's be honest here, Koji Igarashi is to Castlevania what Keiji Inafune is to Mega Man. [...] he's only credited as producer in the GBA and DS entries. It's even worse in his case, because at least Inafking actually had some involvement with the original Famicom Rockman, whereas IGA's first Castlevania project was working as assistant director in Symphony of the Night


I don't agree with that... 1) being a producer isn't that detach of a role you may seem to think, game industry doesn't work like cinema. 2) Iga is always credited as scenario writer, except in Ecclesia iirc. That means that he actually fleshed out the characters and such. Konami has just greenlighted a mobile game, see the main promotional image:

https://goo.gl/images/5Z6Y6V

For better or for worse: no Morris Baldwin, Reinhardt or Sonia Belmont in sight... Half of that cast are pure iga creations, the other half follow Iga's established conventions (that is, Alucard is not CVIII Alucard of course). Being at the helm of producing and writing the series for more than half of its existence is nothing to sneer at.
Unlike Infune, Iga has never tricked people into thinking he was the series' grandaddy, on that I concur.
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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:02 pm 


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I actually always saw Iga as pretty much the same as Inafune, except with a bigger ego. I didn't really get an impression of much of an ego with the latter until the whole Mighty no 9 fiasco, whereas Iga seemed like he tried to come across as Mr. Castlevania from the moment they started reviving the franchise on GBA. Or slightly after that.
But I'll say in his defense, that the games he spearheaded on the portable consoles definitely put some much needed life back into the otherwise doomed series. I can't really say the same about the PS2 games though, and let's not even go into Nano Breaker.... I think that game came out at the point in time where I had the biggest respect for Iga, and immediately lost all expectations at the same time.
I don't know where his skills or limitations are at, but I think at this point he's very aware of it himself, and knows who to ally with to make a good product. Or at least, that's what I hope.


Turrican, I really just made my "walkthrough" of the trailer video in good fun, not to be taken seriously. But I'll of course still defend my impressions, so I'll humour you >:E
Turrican wrote:
0:17 the problem you're lamenting here wasn't possible in SotN days: camera handling and connection with ground.

Ok, so maybe they shouldn't do it in this game either, if they can't do it right? :\

Turrican wrote:
0:40 "These gameplay scenes actually looks decent." big surprise here: that's supposed to be the 95% of the time you'll spend with the game. Once the skippable clumsy cutscenes are over, this decency is the main bulk of the game. I'm seeing it in motion for the first time here to answer you, and I don't think it looks half bad - certainly on the average of what UGnG and DracX PSP have to offer. No 2D "splendor", but we ruled that out ;)

Yeah, I agree. It looks very similar to two other 2.5D games, created for a portable system that had aged hardware at the time it came out.
But I also agree that as long as the bulk of the game looks like this, it's passable at least. But then why only spend a few seconds with this, and use the rest of the trailer to showcase crap?

Turrican wrote:
I'd say the flaws, and the high points, what works and what doesn't mimics to an uncanny extent what you can see here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIBRO8MFK0Y
we could have fun dissecting this video scene by scene too.


But everyone was complaining about Dracula X Chronicles' look since the day it came out. No one likes it. In fact a lot of people always seem to immediately assume that it's a terrible remake because it's so ugly. I actually like it, and usually have to get all defensive about it because people see that it looks like shit and bash it based on that.


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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:57 am 


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I thought it played like utter wank compared to rondo. fight me!

nah the problem was mostly not knowing the range of hitboxes in that awkward 3D, compared to the crisp sprites i'm used to.
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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:05 am 


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Yeah it has nothing on the original game, that much is obvious :)


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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:24 am 


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Sumez wrote:
I don't know where his skills or limitations are at, but I think at this point he's very aware of it himself, and knows who to ally with to make a good product. Or at least, that's what I hope.


again about producers, directors and programmers:

from Wikipedia and Kickstarter we know Shutaro Iida and Curry the Kid are on board in Bloodstained.

Here you can have a good idea of what they've been responsible for at a glance:

http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/NewCV/cvlib-credits.htm

Assuming Iida is credited only as "Shutaro" most of the times, he's been chief programmer and enemy programmer in Aria, Dawn Portrait (also helped with scenario), and Ecclesia (also credited as "gimmicks" inventor); enemy programmer in Lament.

"Curry" is listed as system programmer in Aria, and player programmer in Dawn, Portrait, Ecclesia.

I don't know if Iga managed to bring other long time collaborators such as Kushibuchi, Takeda or Shimamura, but it's safe to say that the main bulk of making the experience a pleasant one: moving around Miriam, jumping, running, fighting the enemies with the adjusted collision detection for the various weapons, all this is resting on the shoulders of these guys.

@ Jonny2x4, you can see that Iga has been around, in minor roles, but certainly he was breathing the same atmosphere of the staff and learning from the seniors, since Rondo days.
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Last edited by Turrican on Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:38 am 


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Iga was credited as producer for Curse of the Moon, and I'd like to think that's why it didn't end up sucking like every other Inticreates games. But that might be giving him too much credit.


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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:41 am 


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Well, they had a damn good fine blueprint to follow with Dracula's Curse. Maybe he made sure they sticked to that :)

I haven't played much by them, but I've heard good things about the Blaster Master, which makes me think that they're competent enough to mimic something that worked beautifully to begin with.
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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:57 am 


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You'd think that, but then there's Mega Man 9 and 10.

Honestly, I think none of the things that made Curse of the Moon good are lifted from Castlevania 3. It feels like its entirely own thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:38 am 


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Sumez wrote:
You'd think that, but then there's Mega Man 9 and 10.


Are they that bad? I picked up 10 but honestly I didn't spend much time on it. :oops:

Sumez wrote:
Honestly, I think none of the things that made Curse of the Moon good are lifted from Castlevania 3. It feels like its entirely own thing.


That may be stretching things a bit... but not by much. Undoubtedly the overall game pace, the quick character-switching, and the boss fights aren't lifted from somewhere else, and they make up a good chunk of the game.
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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:42 am 


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9 and 10 aren't terrible, they just don't take anything away from the excellent designs of the classic series. A lot of people like those games, I don't.


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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:36 pm 


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I really shouldn't watch this, but I'm getting positive vibes from glitch exploiters here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... pQemZ0PWZ8

remember guys, when a game has glitches, and gamers get acquainted with those glitches, and start to hunt for them, you're usually in the presence of a 10/10 game:

-NES Metroid
-SFC Final Fantasy VI
-PSX SotN

Glitches, the undisputable birthmark of gaming excellence.
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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:53 pm 


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All you are saying is that if a lot of people play a game, that means the game is popular :3


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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:04 pm 


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Well... yeah :P but a special kind of popularity, after all there were lots of excellent games in those years that just weren't breakable to such an extent... Come on, you understand where I'm heading.

I'm against Axiom Verge though, and the institutionalization of glitches. That doesn't work.

btw, actual gameplay footage >>> trailer made for the mainstream press.
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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:05 pm 


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I don't know I think pretty much every single popular classic console game has been broken by speedrunners and/or the like.
And a bunch of terrible games as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:25 am 


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Sumez wrote:
You'd think that, but then there's Mega Man 9 and 10.

Honestly, I think none of the things that made Curse of the Moon good are lifted from Castlevania 3. It feels like its entirely own thing.

<Just bumbles into the conversation>
So I played Curse of the Moon twice through and found it to be excellent. Blown away in fact by it being a really good game (promo or not).
I played the Bloodstained proper demo (E3 2016??) a while back and found it be pretty-okay.
Enough so, that I'm not regretting backing it.
I just watched this new Bloodstained trailer ... it looked... well it may have dragged things down a smidge for me.
I mean.. I'm hoping they just were making a trailer poorly.

Other than "they were inspired by Dracula's Curse", do we know of how Curse of the Moon came out *so good*???
Are the same people internally working on it?
Could it rub off on the main Bloodstained?

I'm still believing it could be good, but I'm getting flashes of the Bionic Commando Rearmed/3D BC history...
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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:53 am 


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CoTM.. again.

Ritual 'OF THE NIGHT'

God these names are so lame. I mean, all doubts that these games are pandering to SoTN lovers should be dispelled by the names alone.
I get this was probably discussed ages ago but it struck me anew.
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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:03 am 


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"Curse of the Moon" is cool by me, it makes me think of an edgy tune beloved by RedLetterMedia fans everywhere. Image
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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:58 am 


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hehe, they're running short of ideas with names, that's for sure.

Let's see...

Vampire Killer
Simon's Quest
Haunted Castle
The Adventure / Legend of Dracula
"Dracula's Curse" / Legend of Demon Castle
Belmont's Revenge / Legend of Dracula II
Rondo of Blood
The New Generation
Bloodlines
Vampire's Kiss
Symphony of the Night / Nocturne in the Moonlight
Legends / Prelude of the Dark Night
Apocalypse
Legacy of Darkness / Apocalypse sidestory: Legend of Cornell
Circle of the Moon
Harmony of Dissonance / Concerto of Midnight Sun
Aria of Sorrow
Lament of Innocence
Curse of Darkness
Dawn of Sorrow / Cross of the Blue Moon
Portrait of Ruin / Gallery of Labyrinth
Order of Ecclesia
Harmony of Despair
***
Curse of the Moon
Ritual of the Night

And that's without taking into account the obvious reprises of Fuuin / Juuin / Kokuiin...

I'd say we should steer clear of curses and moons for a while, and maybe add some Blood, Ruin or Legacy for the next round.
How about:

-Bloodstained II: Legacy of Blood
-Bloodstained ~ The Haunted Generation
-Legend of Bloodstained: Ruin of Innocence

...Whatever it'll be, if the series goes on, I hope Iga has enough tongue in cheek to give us "Super Bloodstained IV". :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:22 am 


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Legend of the Cursed Symphony

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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:53 pm 


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Moonstained: Blood of the Dawn Curse


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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:01 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:29 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:38 pm 


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^thank you for this because I want to make the case that "Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon" was a period joke all along


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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:43 pm 


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^^
Also;

Bloodstained: Menstrual Legacy

(ok I stahp)
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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:05 pm 


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Weak Boson wrote:
^thank you for this because I want to make the case that "Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon" was a period joke all along


Oh shiaaaat, now that you mention it, it is obvious!!!!

*rofl*
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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:26 pm 


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Reminds me of the slayers episode where Lina couldn't use magic because it was "that time of the month."


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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:33 pm 


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Latest backer email announces that Mac and Linux support is being deep-sixed; those who had chosen either can email to change their platform, but no mention of outright refunds.
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 Post subject: Re: Bloodstained RotN : Kouji IGA's new "Castlevania" game.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:02 pm 


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Yeah, it's the usual .. too many backer rewards, bit off more than they can chew, gotta scale it back. On the other hand, nobody is that big on Mac or Linux gaming anyway.


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