Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Stevens]

With how brutal the game's dev cycle was, it might've just been for lack of time, but otherwise I get the impression they were deliberately trying to create the ultimate action game for stock MD hardware.

Probably my single favourite MD game, and most definitely among my top scrolling action games overall - I've seen few boss eviscerators so simultaneously hardcore yet freeform - but there's a decided entry barrier with the controls. They are razor-sharp once mastered though, have no doubt - no input-drop nonsense here. I wrote a brief primer here (minor boss spoilers), if it's of any interest. Basically, get comfy with the controls, don't pull a gun if you're not going to use it, and don't skimp on building your ammo stocks. ;3

Thanks for posting that primer. I've only played enough to get used to the controls (years of Street Fighter didn't hurt there) and find a weapon load out I could make progress with. Went with homing x 2, s-word, and lancer.

Wound up getting to the werewolf guy. Going to try homing x 2 and lancer x 2 and see how that fairs. Of course I know at some point later in the game that might not be good enough.

Homing was fine in Gunstar on normal, but on hard I started with rapid and would always try and grab fire. I'll see if this plays out similarly.

[Arasoi]

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[BIL]

AB Cop seems a bit off the chain, as it were. Definitely the shameless criminality I'd expect from a Golgo 13 licensee!

[kitten]

whoops i think i had some stuff i was gonna say a couple pages ago but lingered for a few days. oh well! moving on

For example, if the wind pressure is 4km north, then you're supposed to aim 4pixels downwards off your target or something like that (it's been a while).

man, that game springing a sniper bit on you right at the end is some heinous bullshit. if you miss, you're forced to go back through several non-linear maze segments while on a timer to get there, which is ridiculously mean. i missed the sniper shot like half a dozen separate times before getting it, and the trudge back through the mazes was heinous. not only is there that walk of shame, though! you also get the joy of:

1. the game randomizing wind strength and direction
2. zero indication as to how wind actually works
3. lack of a hit marker on a miss, making it so you can't learn from failure
4. zero indication of the hitbox on the target
5. a single shot before immediate game over

iirc, i had to slowly and painfully discover you were supposed to go central mass and that the head wasn't even part of the hitbox - and even then i didn't know because you're not graced with so much as a hit marker! for anyone reading who hasn't played this, watch from this timestamp to observe the 4 minute solid, tedious trawl up to the sniping point, and then imagine doing that every time you miss on a sniper segment that you get a single chance at and no knowledge gained whatsoever from a failure. it is agonizing. if you've forgotten the paths through the mazes (you will), it's very easy to get a game over from time up, too - i had to use a map and pause the game periodically. one of the most teeth-grittingly awful times i've had with the tail end of a game, for sure.

i strongly prefer the first golgo 13 title to this one, it has a way more cinematic feel and much more entertaining variety - those shooting gallery segments are wayyyy more fun than the medicore driving stages in dai 2 shou. even though 1's side-scrolling segments look worse, they play better, and you get some affably poor but charmingly serviceable shmupping, too. they're both frankly kind of mediocre games, but the way they present themselves is charming enough to make either worth a recommendation to those impressed with their novelty (the first game playing the theme song when you pause is adorable).

W.U.R.M. (or Valzoder if you go by the JP title), which was done by the same director as the first Golgo 13, always piqued my interest ever since I've seen the coverage of it on Nintendo Power, but I never got around to find a copy of it.

vazolder is... okay. there's definitely a similar charm to the game, but it's not as good as dai 1 shou. the first person battles have some very silly logic to them and don't play well, and the side-scrolling has too much of a maze feel. the shmuppage also feels notably worse than in dai 1 shou, and it's much more prominent, to boot. there's a bizarrely strong cheesecake vibe for an fc title, too - your character defies perspective significantly to make absolute sure you can see her onepiece riding up her behind.



does she have some sort of hardcore wedgie? found this and a couple of the shots in the cutscenes a little offputting, tbh. not at all a killer, but please keep this stuff to the pc-88 and spare my precious nintendo seal of quality sensibilities ;___;

then again, the director is definitely no stranger to titillation! and again on the famicom, no less!

Spoiler

goodness!! duke togo, the total cad, spoiling the eyes of innocent japanese youth. truly shocking.

[Arasoi]

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[Durandal]

With how brutal the game's dev cycle was, it might've just been for lack of time, but otherwise I get the impression they were deliberately trying to create the ultimate action game for stock MD hardware.

Probably my single favourite MD game, and most definitely among my top scrolling action games overall - I've seen few boss eviscerators so simultaneously hardcore yet freeform - but there's a decided entry barrier with the controls. They are razor-sharp once mastered though, have no doubt - no input-drop nonsense here. I wrote a brief primer here (minor boss spoilers), if it's of any interest. Basically, get comfy with the controls, don't pull a gun if you're not going to use it, and don't skimp on building your ammo stocks. ;3

Thanks for posting that primer. I've only played enough to get used to the controls (years of Street Fighter didn't hurt there) and find a weapon load out I could make progress with. Went with homing x 2, s-word, and lancer.

Wound up getting to the werewolf guy. Going to try homing x 2 and lancer x 2 and see how that fairs. Of course I know at some point later in the game that might not be good enough.

Homing was fine in Gunstar on normal, but on hard I started with rapid and would always try and grab fire. I'll see if this plays out similarly.

Another interesting little tidbit, ammo consumption for continuous fire weapons like the Flame and Homing is higher when you're in strafe-fire mode, so you want to switch to fixed shot mode during certain boss fights where you can safely shoot without moving.

[BIL]

Holy fuck, had no idea! I'm sure there's a million little things like that I'm yet to discover. That may explain why master speedrunners seemingly insist on torching Melon Bread in Fixed mode, despite Free technically killing him just as dead. You'd need less ammo for your one remaining Burner that way. I wonder if this may be useful at my perennial Shaweet Run sticking point, the Catmans Biker Massacre. I can just about shred 'em without pause in current efforts with Ranger but it's still a bit dicier than I'd like.

Fixed shot is a rarity in my current runs - I adore strafing mechanics in general, and I just like being able to tightly zone enemies while hosing them down. The big exception is in Act 3-1's inverted bridge, where just about everyone I know switches to Fixed/Flame to weather those fuckin snowflies. I was experimenting with switching to Free/Ranger and run/gunning through for a more aggressive tack - still too easy to get clipped if you aggressively invade their space, though. Homing is an incredibly bad idea, it'll merrily chase after one skittering fly while several others blast/bump you into a stultifying fall. As always this is "Hard" mode - not a brag, I just consider it "SUPERDEFAULT."

Homing seems a burden in general, on Hard. Basically all of Flame's weaknesses (useless on metal or underwater) with none of its concentrated face-melting power, plus problems of its own (easily distracted by item boxes & stray zako). The game's balance seems to firmly shun the pair that most automate your aiming and positioning, Homing and Ranger.

[Sumez]

Are you talking about Alien Soldier?

[BIL]

Yes

[Stevens]

I'll see if this plays out similarly.

Homing seems a burden in general, on Hard. Basically all of Flame's weaknesses (useless on metal or underwater) with none of its concentrated face-melting power, plus problems of its own (easily distracted by item boxes & stray zako). The game's balance seems to firmly shun the pair that most automate your aiming and positioning, Homing and Ranger.

Haha. Called it in my last post. Treasure has a template with homing.

[kitten]

okay, so i ordered snake's revenge, as i said the other day! i think jonny recommended it? i haven't played it yet, but the copy i picked up came with a copy of deja vu, and both games had their manuals. was only about 20 bucks and both were titles i'd yet to play, so i figured why not?

the manual for snake's revenge is absolutely previous. the above picture is not even the most insane thing in it, though i definitely dig the wario hat.

here's a link to a good scan of the full manual, just make sure you zoom in.

[BIL]

Growing up I once rented Jackal and Snake's Revenge, and although my tiny 7yo brain couldn't quite comprehend =ULTRA= being a mere imprint, I distinctly remember thinking the latter's attract intro was like Jackal's cute little eye-catch... but somehow very wrong.

Before I die, I'd like to see a supercut of MGS2's Naked Raiden sequence set to this cookin' groove. Now that's sneaking BGM to cup your balls to.

[Stevens]

okay, so i ordered snake's revenge, as i said the other day! i think jonny recommended it? i haven't played it yet, but the copy i picked up came with a copy of deja vu, and both games had their manuals. was only about 20 bucks and both were titles i'd yet to play, so i figured why not?

the manual for snake's revenge is absolutely previous. the above picture is not even the most insane thing in it, though i definitely dig the wario hat.

here's a link to a good scan of the full manual, just make sure you zoom in.

Those pictures look like they were scrawled by a seven year old with ADD on a coke binge.

Says you are clutching your assault rifle in the opening paragraph. Pretty sure you don't actually start with one.

I remembered a lot of that manual since when I was a kid game manuals were what you read on the toilet. And you often read them over and over.

What else?

Played a session of Jim last night. Hubris got the best of me as I made it to Level "5" with little trouble, but then lost a few lives and ultimately bit it on Pete's Sake.

I 1 CC'd it back in the day. I also cleared it taking Pete on the longer route but I won't say I outright 1 CC'd it on hard. Ithink I did, but you're talking 20 years ago.

Alien Solider - You win BIL. I've been loading up with buster, flame, and lancer x 2.

Wound up at stage ten or eleven (playing on "easy"). No passwords though. Start my runs fresh every time, although like playing a STG I will often spend an extra credit to get a taste of what is coming next.

[BIL]

Alien Solider - You win BIL. I've been loading up with buster, flame, and lancer x 2.

Good man.

As technique develops, you might wanna experiment with double Flame in the early stages (lots of eminently cookable Manimals runnin' round the joint), before transitioning to Lancer later on (swapping in a new weapon won't deplete the ammo you've built up on that slot). Regardless, Flame/Lancer/Buster power trio won't see you wrong. The two boss shredders and the all-round workhorse.

Er, almost all-round. There are a handful of enemies immune to Busting (and Lancing) - but that's when you whip out BURNER

[Stevens]

Thanks for the tips.

As it turns out I had begun experimenting with buster, flame x 2, and lancer before I read your post.

Best run yet. Almost made it to 12, but it was more than that. I getting through the early stages with my life bar largely intact.

If I've got this right or somewhat right I believe flame to be more potent against organic types. Lancer for the more robotic types. Would I be correct?

[BIL]

Yep, exactly. Very roughly speaking, the game's elemental scale seems to go from Fire (Flame/Homing) to Laser (Lancer/Sword), with Buster and Ranger somewhere between.

If it's metal, Fire weapons will do little damage, probably zero. Conversely, certain organic and plant-based enemies are either resistant or outright immune to Lasers. In practice, the earlier game favours Fire, the latter Laser, though you'll never be able to lean 100% on either type.

Phoenix Force murders everything without exception (in Soviet EARTH-A, Kentucky Chicken fry you!), but note that if you're underwater, you won't be able to access it.

That excess HP you're noticing in earlier stages is the start of the game's assault course design philosophy kicking in. Gradually you end up with more and more excess Phoenix+ammo, to deploy with your improved performance + knowledge base, until eventually the whole thing's on fire.

[Jonny2x4]

okay, so i ordered snake's revenge, as i said the other day! i think jonny recommended it? i haven't played it yet, but the copy i picked up came with a copy of deja vu, and both games had their manuals. was only about 20 bucks and both were titles i'd yet to play, so i figured why not?

the manual for snake's revenge is absolutely previous. the above picture is not even the most insane thing in it, though i definitely dig the wario hat.

here's a link to a good scan of the full manual, just make sure you zoom in.

The funniest thing is that's not even Solid Snake. The character descriptions and images are swapped out and the guy with the Wario hat is actually John Turner (a.k.a. J.T.), one of your contacts, while Snake is the John McClane-looking guy with the tank top next to him. The art style reminds me a bit of the manual art for the FCD Dracula II and it makes me wonder if it was the same artist, since apparently the same core team worked on all the FC Dracula games (Akamatsu not only appears on the credits of Snake's Revenge, as well as in Dracula II and III, but was apparently responsible for the very first Dracula too).

I used to dismiss Konami's English manuals from the period as mere inventions from the U.S. subsidiary as a result of the language barrier when it came to translating the Japanese backstories, thinking it was easier to just make up stuff instead, since few kids actually read the manuals back then, but there is some evidence that they did had roughly translated versions of the manuals as base, such as in Castlevania III (where Shimon, the skeleton version of Simon Belmont from Getsu Fuma Den, is named "Gate of Death", a literal translation of his name) and in Contra III (where some of the enemy character names were swapped out from Contra Spirits). Hell, the plot synopsis on the Operation C manual ends very similarly to the GB Contra manual despite most of the other plot details differing significantly between each other.

エイリアン復活を阻止し、某超大国の野望を打ち砕け！！

The revival of the aliens must be stopped and the ambitions of the
evil Viper vanquished forever!

Aside from substituting 某超大国 ("a certain superpower nation") as "Viper", it's almost a word-to-word translation.

Curiously, the Snake's Revenge manual makes no mention of Metal Gear itself, at least not directly. Instead, they use some made-up name for it, the Ultra-Sheik Nuclear Attack Team. This and the lack of the actual Metal Gear branding outside the in-game text makes me wonder if there's more to the development of Snake's Revenge besides being just some sequel they made for the western market. I always had this personal theory that Snake's Revenge was actually planned to be released for the Famicom and when Kojima decided to do his version of Metal Gear 2 on the MSX2, they canned the JP release to avoid overlapping, but they still released it everywhere else since they it was easier to release that instead of porting MG2 to the NES. It just seems curious how the bad guy's name on the manual, Higharolla Kockamamie, shares the initials as Hideo Kojima. We all know Kojima has a habit of dissing everything he didn't work on (see his remark about Portable Ops in Peace Walker and his suspicious statements about Revengeance's placement in the canon). Or maybe I'm just reading too much into things.

[soprano1]

We all know Kojima has a habit of dissing everything he didn't work on (see his remark about Portable Ops in Peace Walker and his suspicious statements about Revengeance's placement in the canon). Or maybe I'm just reading too much into things.

You aren't, he's a dick who can't write for shit. Thing is, Konami is MUCH worse than him on the dickery, so he didn't get much deserved flak from fans.

[Jonny2x4]

I was more talking about the idea of Higharolla Kockamamie being named after Hideo Kojima. Considering the name only appears in the manual and never in the game itself. it's most likely just a coincidence and the localization side just thought up of the name without knowing who Kojima is at the time, but the idea of the developers naming the villain after Kojima just seems funny to me. From what I understand, there was a stigma at the time among Japanese developers that if a game skips their market completely then it was probably not good enough for them (Shinji Mikami once said in an interview that he was treated rather condescendingly by his coworkers when his Roger Rabbit game on the Game Boy skipped Japanese release).

With that said, the most reprehensible thing Kojima has done recently was changing the English voice actor from Hayter to Kiefer without even telling him. Sure, you could make the case that Hayter is just a dub actor and Akio Ohtsuka (the Japanese Snake) is the one who matters or that it's Kojima's game and he could cast whomever he wants, but then why rub it in Hayter's face by promoting the fact that you're putting Kiefer as the voice of Hayter's most iconic role in an E3 presentation?

[mycophobia]

Dead Fox is a tough fuckin game, even on Normal difficulty. would be right at home in an arcade imo.

[BIL]

Yeah, it's mean as hell. Normal is absolutely arcade-tough. Long, complex stages with sudden death ever-lurking, and there's some intense platforming further in too. Arc didn't hold back with their FC Rolling Thunder port, nor did they here. The max difficulty is to be avoided on a first run - it's one of those console games that treats it as a second loop, with enemies blasting you nanoseconds after appearing. Still horribly compelling with the sharp controls and tight collision, though.

I find the door-checking a bit excessive at times, but the tactical gunplay is first-rate (and redeems the former, somewhat - breezily exiting a door is primetime to get shot in the face). The revolving door animation is nice and efficient too. Note you only need to rescue the informant dude, who's always found in the same general area near the stage's end. The other three are for style points.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think this may be one of those rare FC games that's actually playable for score? Could easily be wrong, but I don't remember any obvious exploits. Either way, I like how your endgame hostage rescue total gets axed after each continue. Ala Metal Slug, scoring or not, it's a neat little optional goal to shoot for.

Speaking of stuff nicked from fellow RT-alike Shinobi, I love the subtle addition of air control while otherwise maintaining RT's discipline (contact damage, limited ammo, no bombs). Puts it in an interesting spot.

[Sumez]

Rolling Thunder has contact damage?!

[__SKYe]

Rolling Thunder has contact damage?!

It does. It may not appear so at first, since enemies will punch you as you approach, but you can test this by standing in front of a door when an enemy comes out of it.

[Sumez]

Oh, I was thinking of jumping into enemies, you know to stun them shortly.

[__SKYe]

You can stun them? Honest question, I didn't know you could even touch them without taking damage, be it by ramming them, making a regular jumping towards them or by switching planes (hitting them in the process).

[BIL]

Yeah, I was so surprised I had to check the AC version (old+new) and the FC port. All of them seem to take 50% HP for touching an enemy, under any circumstance. Were we overlooking something? Let's strap Sumez to a table and send a red-hot laser perilously inching towards his knackers, that should make him talk. (■｀ω´■)

Meanwhile Shinobi (AC) lets players bump into most enemies without ill effect, merely knocking both apart. The exceptions are the rare cases where contact damage is their attack (Spiderman, his BDSM counterparts from Shadow Dancer MD). The Super Shinobi preserves this in a way, albeit modified! Now it's only the player that gets knocked back, but you still won't take damage from a bump (or lose your POW). Again there's a few enemies (doggos) who rely on contact damage and will mess you up.

Dead Fox uses RT's model (or what I assumed is RT's model!): touch anything and that's a healthy chunk of HP gone. I can't quite recall if contact-only RT/DF attackers like bats and feral freaks take down your whole lifebar at one touch, but they'd be an interesting parallel with Shinobi's exceptions if so.

Bump-jutsu is quite involved in advanced Shinobi, as most will know. I always found it a bit goofy tbh, I'd have had Joe give 'em something more dignified like a smack in they fuckin mouth (with the same mutual knockback). Ex-Ranza kinda does this with its contact-enabled automelee!

Spoiler

[__SKYe]

Makes sense that enemies do contact damage in RT, since they are programmed to suddenly materialize from doors or drop on you from the upper lane as you stroll by.
The only bright side of this is that (and assuming that every enemy does indeed 50% damage on contact) you won't die in a single hit from the enemies that kill you in this manner, though I don't think there's much use for deliberatly bumping into them.

Both schools (damage on contact vs no-damage) have their own merits, but I wish the latter was explored more often. I guess that, if implemented improperly, it could lead to abuse (something like my TLB strategy for Crude Buster, if there was no contact damage), but often times contact damage also leads to abuse, but from the game instead (the twin st1 bosses from the same game would qualify).

Do you know more examples of games that do this (apart from the Shinobis you just pointed out, and the Metal Slug series, which is the only one I can think of at the moment)? Got kinda interested now.

[BrianC]

Maybe Sumez is thinking of Rolling Thunder 2? If I remember correctly, you can bump into enemies without taking damage in that game.

[Sumez]

Yeah, I was so surprised I had to check the AC version (old+new) and the FC port. All of them seem to take 50% HP for touching an enemy, under any circumstance. Were we overlooking something? Let's strap Sumez to a table and send a red-hot laser perilously inching towards his knackers, that should make him talk. (■｀ω´■)

Rolling Thunder 2 is the only game in the series I have played. It doesn't have contact damage(you will likely get stunned shortly though), so I always assumed Shinobi took that aspect from the original game, but I guess it invented that aspect instead? When Dead Viper Fox punishes you for touching an enemy, that stood out to me as something I thought was unique for the "genre".

[BIL]

Do you know more examples of games that do this (apart from the Shinobis you just pointed out, and the Metal Slug series, which is the only one I can think of at the moment)? Got kinda interested now.

Metal Slug is subtly different from Shinobi imo, since there's literally no collision between most humanoid characters - player and enemies can freely overlap without so much as bumping. Of course there's still certain enemy types that kill players dead on contact, like X's mutants and basically any tank, while player-driven tanks will make mincemeat of enemy troops. A beautiful if gruesome consistency there.

I can think of several more sidescrollers like this off the top of my head (Ninja Spirit, Hagane, Strider 2*, Assault Suits Valken), but I'm actually finding it hard to recall stuff like AC Shinobi, where contact bumps + stuns you at no further cost. Even rarer seem to be games where the enemy gets the same penalty.

I think Slug's model works beautifully, particularly combined with its automelee knifing and super-detailed animation. Those massive crowd rucks simply couldn't happen otherwise. You can dive into the crowd slashing and gashing, but the enemy can still kill you with shocking suddenness, if you're careless and they get a shot/slash/swing off. The *whack* of that rifle-butt attack is coming to mind again!

Even better is when you're fighting infantry and tanks simultaneously, wading through the former while the latter menacingly encroach on your space. The blurring of freedom and danger is the defining trait of the series, imo. Starkly different approach from Contra, where surgically-precise action is dominant.

This is making me remember the times in various Slugs when a soldier randomly dropped his weapon and ran away screaming, and I let him harmlessly pass through me/his comrades so he wouldn't provide them an inadvertent meat shield. So rad.

*Capcom's arcade game ofc, not the awful "Return From Darkness"

Maybe Sumez is thinking of Rolling Thunder 2? If I remember correctly, you can bump into enemies without taking damage in that game.

Aha, good point! That'd be another for the Shinobi "mutual bump / no further penalty" list if I'm remembering it right.

Rolling Thunder 2 is the only game in the series I have played. It doesn't have contact damage(you will likely get stunned shortly though), so I always assumed Shinobi took that aspect from the original game, but I guess it invented that aspect instead? When Dead Viper Fox punishes you for touching an enemy, that stood out to me as something I thought was unique for the "genre".

Seems like Shinobi may have!

Funny how Rolling Thunder 2 borrows both free bumps and air control. It's actually more lenient in that regard than Dead Fox (though it makes up for that with its stage design - IIRC it gets pretty goddamn mean).